Various sources on Twitter: Gardner played fourth quarter against OSU with a broken foot
Devin Gardner led #Michigan to three TD drives on final 4 series against #Buckeyes AFTER he broke his left foot that day.
— Bruce Feldman (@BFeldmanCBS) December 26, 2013
Via Bruce Feldman and others. This is incredible. I cannot imagine how painful this was. Sort of explains why he couldn't run an option play on the two point conversion and why it was so critical to go for two instead of the tie.
December 26th, 2013 at 12:11 PM ^
Those who stay.
December 26th, 2013 at 12:39 PM ^
Warrior.
December 26th, 2013 at 4:21 PM ^
If there was a fracture of some kind, when (after OSU) was it diagnosed? I went back to see where all of the "turf toe" talk originated. And whether the team, and/or Hoke, supplied that explanation.
What I gather is that the Michigan beat-writers somehow got "turf toe" from Hoke. Here is an example (Nick Baumgardner in this case):
The junior quarterback has not practiced since Michigan closed its 2013 regular season with a 42-41 loss to Ohio State on Nov. 30.
He was seen wearing crutches and a walking boot at the team's banquet earlier this month, and the official diagnosis from Hoke has been "turf toe."
http://www.mlive.com/wolverines/index.ssf/2013/12/brady_hoke_shane_morris_would.html
I have gotten used to Hoke being non-forthcoming about injuries. But I am really uncomfortable with Hoke putting out misinformation; actively decieving the public when asked about specific injuries. "Turf toe" is not the same as a fracture.
Is there a good, clear, honest answer to this?
December 26th, 2013 at 4:29 PM ^
...is that turf toe sometimes involves a fracture. That might also explain why there's "concern about a possible fracture" as opposed to an obvious break of a larger bone.
I don't know whether that's what's going on or not. But accusing the staff of lying because you think "turf toe is not the same as a fracture" without further evidence is a bit much.
December 26th, 2013 at 5:23 PM ^
That Devin may have suffered a fracture in the OSU game? Isn't that the point of the thread? There wasn't this sort of reaction when the working diagnosis had been "turf toe." Doesn't everybody agree that this is new news, and a significant angle to the Gardner story? I do, and I don't think I'm at all unusual in that regard.
December 26th, 2013 at 10:24 PM ^
Significant news? Yes, it explains the reason. Other than that, what do you want from me?
December 26th, 2013 at 4:36 PM ^
The "public" doesn't have a single goddamned "right" to any information about any student's injuries, whether he's an athlete or not.
The only people who have a "right" to accurate medical information are those student-athletes who are injured, their families, and other team members and coaches.
I realize bookies, oddsmakers, and gamblers aren't too happy with Hoke, but fuck 'em.
December 26th, 2013 at 5:26 PM ^
So unless there was a pretty clear understanding with Devin Gardner, and Gardner had "turf toe," there would be no justification for anyone -- Hoke, or anyone else -- to talk about Gardner having "turf toe." But that is exactly what seems to have happened. And nobody took much notice or thought much of it. Business as usual for a high-profile football player being followed in the press.
Now, some sort of imaging study, I am pretty confident, would offer up some distinction between a fracture and "turf toe." An MRI for ("turf toe"), a plain film radiograph (for any fractures); that sort of thing. I am not really presuming to offer any conclusive answers. I am just asking questions.
So yes, Don, I agree that medical information could arguably be kept private. Which is the distinction I made. Non-disclosure is one thing. ("You all saw Devin on crutches at the Bust; I can confirm that he is not practicing due to that injury, but I will not be disclosing anything else about Devin's private medical information...") That's not what Hoke did. Hoke gave the press "turf toe."
So now disinformation would be something else altogether. And this is where I regrettable have to speculate, until Hoke answers some more specific questions. The speculation would be that Hoke deliberately mumbled something about "turf toe" to keep KSU guessing as to whether they'd have to defend Devin, or focus solely on Shane. Because "turf toe" could be day-to-day, whereas a fracture is a virtual guarantee that Devin wouldn't play for several weeks. The questions for Hoke are: You mentioned "turf toe" as Devin's diagnosis; is that true, or is it a fracture? If there is a fracture, when did it occur? When was it diagnosed? How was it diagnosed? Do any of the doctors think it is somehow both? A fracture and "turf toe"?
December 26th, 2013 at 5:33 PM ^
...I prefer to get my medical information from the American Academy of Orthopedic Surgeons than from your imagination.
Surgery is not often necessary for treating turf toe. However, if your symptoms persist or your level of athletic play is affected, surgery may be an option. Doctors most often recommend surgery for larger Grade 3 injuries, such as:
- A severe tear of the plantar complex
- Fracture of the sesamoid
Maybe there's a radiologist here who can weigh in on how easy it is to diagnose a sesamoid fracture, or the "small bony pull-off fractures where the plantar complex attaches to the bones" mentioned elsewhere on the page. I suspect there might be situations where the diagnosis would be in doubt even after an x-ray, but maybe I'm wrong.
Either way, the point is that fractures can be part of a diagnosis of turf toe. Not just accompanying the turf toe but part of the diagnosis. Which would mean that regardless of when the diagnosis was made, Hoke was honest throughout when he described the injury as a turf toe.
December 26th, 2013 at 5:54 PM ^
So if Devin's injury is one of turf toe with a fracture involvement, Hoke could get away (heck, he doesn't need to "get away"; he can say whatever he wants to) with calling it "turf toe."
Yet my question(s) remain the same: Coach Hoke, we've been hearing from sources close to the player/team that Devin has a fracture; is that true? If so, when did you learn that a fracture was part of the diagnosis?
I mean, one avenue of explanation in this case is that "All's fair in love and war and college football. Sure, Hoke knew two weeks ago that Devin had a severe Grade 3 injury in the category of "turf toe," including a fracture of the sesamoid, but never said anything about the fracture part, because he wanted to keep KSU off balance in terms of defensive game-planning..."
December 26th, 2013 at 5:40 PM ^
In what bizarre universe is Brady Hoke obligated to give our opponent accurate injury information?
What is the ethical and moral distinction between not providing accurate injury information to our opponent and running a fake punt? Both are intentionally deceptive.
December 26th, 2013 at 5:44 PM ^
"In what bizarre universe..."
06/30/2008. You should know by now.
December 26th, 2013 at 5:57 PM ^
that Denard Robinson would be fine and would be back to play in the second half of the Nebraska game in Lincoln on Octobe 27, 2012.
So there's that.
Not that Denard was questionable; not that he didn't know. No; Denard would be back in the second half.
December 26th, 2013 at 5:52 PM ^
... Given that there is deception in games on the field, why not deception off the field? Couldn't that be part of the game?
But then isn't everything that comes out of Hoke's mouth subject to a kind of mysticism as to whether it is disinformation designed to fool opponents?
December 26th, 2013 at 12:12 PM ^
When he broke his foot, the shoe probably kept it mostly aligned and tight so the broken bone wouldn't move much so it wouldn't hurt too bad.
Also the adrenaline pumping through him offset some of that pain too.
I actually wouldn't be suprised if he didn't think it was nothing more than a bruised bone.
Not trying to say what he did wasn't impressive but def explains the playcalling for the last play.
December 26th, 2013 at 12:16 PM ^
December 26th, 2013 at 12:18 PM ^
December 26th, 2013 at 1:04 PM ^
It does not explain Borges calling the exact same formation after a timeout though. That is still a mystery.
December 26th, 2013 at 2:35 PM ^
It's Borges....mystery explained.
So, does Devin have a broken foot and turf toe, or "just" a broken foot. Maybe someone can explain....they aren't one and the same?
Why has Hoke being calling it a turf toe injury?
December 26th, 2013 at 2:55 PM ^
Posted this on the other thread but apparently I need to post it here too. A fracture of the sesamoid is sometimes a component of a severe grade 3 turf toe injury.
December 26th, 2013 at 3:54 PM ^
I have seen two NFL teams do exactly the same thing this year...
exactly.
IF you believe in the play I don't care if OSU sees the formation. And I will take the actions of NFL coordinators before your, or any one else's, opnion...
jdon
December 26th, 2013 at 7:44 PM ^
and I'm tired of Borges dumb fucking logic that 2 play's ran at -8yds gain and 16yds gain equals a 8yrd avg. This is fucking football not fucking bingo, attempt to score a godamn touchdown on every single play or go home. Count me in as one of the people who thinks that the game has passed Michigans co-ordinators by, it possible to win with smashmouth football ala Stanford but not without embrassing "new age" concepts.
December 26th, 2013 at 2:30 PM ^
I do rehab for a living and I would posit that if reports of the injury are consistent with internets/twitters then DG is a very tough individual. Adrenaline might offset some pain/discomfort temporarily but not for that duration. You can only do so much with shoes/taping and neither of these is going to do much when he had to plant at speed or when taking a shot to the leg in passing while maintaining a throwing posture. A half-time injection might have helped but that's no certainty.
Not that foot but...Ouch.
I'm presuming after the game DG caught a few fish by hand in the Huron, went drinking with Taylor Lewan and had all of his drinks bought for him by Bill Brasky.
December 26th, 2013 at 3:56 PM ^
"Don't complain about that horrible chest pain radiating up into your arm. You've got a nice tight shirt on, so you don't actually feel that bad."
December 26th, 2013 at 12:12 PM ^
But I agree that Devin told the coaches that he injured his foot and probably was the reason Hoke went for two!
December 26th, 2013 at 12:13 PM ^
I need to go dig up all the geniuses here calling DG soft when he slid to avoid a tackle in the MSU game, not getting the 1st down in the process.
December 26th, 2013 at 12:25 PM ^
December 26th, 2013 at 1:45 PM ^
December 26th, 2013 at 12:41 PM ^
but a player can be guilty of committing a singularly "soft" play without being soft.
DG is clearly not soft. But that slide against MSU was, by itself, a soft play.
December 26th, 2013 at 9:59 PM ^
But it's still pretty dumb to criticize a quarterback for ever making a "soft" play. QBs are expected to run out of bounds or slide. They need to be healthy for the sake of the team.
December 26th, 2013 at 11:01 PM ^
would you rather have a qb that protects himself and lives to see another down, or a qb that fights for an extra couple of crucial yards--at the very real risk of being hit out of the game?
i think the best answer is that it depends on the situation, and i'd want a qb that can read the situation in the game and shows the capability of doing both. you don't want your qb taking a helmet to the throwing shoulder for an extra yard on 1st down. but i would argue that you, as a fan, could reasonably expect your qb to fight for that extra yard or two on a critical 3rd down play. and i would further argue that a qb who fails to do that and slides instead committed a soft play.
December 26th, 2013 at 11:39 PM ^
I don't think many coaches are going to criticize a QB who goes down/out of bounds on his own unless it happens to be an absolute desperate situation, like the end of the game. There's a big difference between a QB and any other ballcarrier. QBs wear lighter pads and need to be healthy enough to throw with precision, whereas other skill players just have to be healthy enough to hold on to the ball.
December 26th, 2013 at 1:46 PM ^
It ain't hard to find them if you look. I noted a couple of times in my little write-ups that people calling him soft or overrated were being idiots. He's had an un-and-down season, but nobody should question the toughness of New 98.
December 26th, 2013 at 3:08 PM ^
I thought the mods set you up to get out of Bolivia...out of curiousity, who in the world did you end up pissing off and what did you do?
December 26th, 2013 at 12:14 PM ^
December 26th, 2013 at 12:24 PM ^
Still don't like that we didn't use our TO.
We should've settled things down and got everyone on the same page. THAT was the mistake.
I would've lined up in a dummy play. Saw the OSU defense and called TO.
Then ran something with everyone on the same page.
Also, in that situation, run a pick play...if they call it, okay, now you get another shot from the 12 yardline, it's not a HUGE deal and worth the risk.
December 26th, 2013 at 12:50 PM ^
I also don't understand your entire thought about the trick play...
December 26th, 2013 at 1:11 PM ^
He is saying a pick play, not a trick play. A play in which one receiver basically sets a pick on the other receiver's defender. It is illegal but there are ways of running it where it appears legal.
December 26th, 2013 at 1:54 PM ^
And if you don't...then the penalty doesn't really hurt you.
On the 2, all you have to do is run at the "other" CB. No need to touch him, if he has to reroute just a little bit, that should be enough space to get open long enough for a 2 yard pass.
December 26th, 2013 at 12:15 PM ^
Devin = Duke
December 26th, 2013 at 12:47 PM ^
December 26th, 2013 at 1:16 PM ^
In real life you are 100% correct. However it's difficult to find animated GIF's with Jimmy Stewart symbolizing "toughness". The only ones I could find were with Stewart were with him and his imaginary soft, furry rabbit Harvey and that wasn't exactly the mental picture of tougness I was looking for.
December 26th, 2013 at 1:19 PM ^
GERG disagrees.
December 26th, 2013 at 5:41 PM ^
Surely you jest. Wayne applied for admission to the Naval Academy in 1925. Wayne suffered severe shoulder and back injuries from playing football and performing stunts. John Wayne, 34 years old and the father of 4 was initially classified 3-A, married with children. Later with manpower shortages he was reclassified 1-A, draft eligible (though never was called for a physical). Wayne never appealed the classification. Later, his employer, Republic Studio, evidently was the concerned third party that appealed his classification which was subsequently changed to 2-A (deferred for national interest, war bond drives etc.). There is also evidence that Wayne applied for duty with the OSS.
December 26th, 2013 at 1:54 PM ^
John Wayne wanted to be Ted Williams when he grew up, but he's still one of my favorite actors, and this movie is freaking CLASSIC. One of Maureen O'Hara's best roles, too.
December 26th, 2013 at 2:37 PM ^
Now the original 98 Tom Harmon...that was a tough guy.
BTW, performances like DG vs. Ohio are why I'm keeping my season tix.
December 27th, 2013 at 8:43 AM ^
because....well, obviously.
December 26th, 2013 at 12:16 PM ^
This kinda makes me want to go through the 4Q play-by-play to try and figure out when it happened, but I'm not enough of a sadist to do that.
December 26th, 2013 at 12:53 PM ^
The fumble play. If you watch a replay of the game he's walking and running normal before the fumble. After he has a noticable limp.
December 26th, 2013 at 12:17 PM ^