Will Refs Fairly Call MSU Penalties?

Submitted by Dailysportseditor on

Despite its weak offensive output, MSU has only one loss this year, mainly due to its aggressive, physical defense.  However, MSU's aggressive, physical defense  has led them to becoming the 117th worse NCAA team (out of 125) for penalty yardage  [70 yards/gm].

At ND, MSU's aggressiveness on defense led to numerous key defensive penalties which gave away the game to the Irish.

After the ND game, MSU AD Mark Hollis made an inquiry to Big Ten officials regarding the penalty calls against the Spartans.  Mark Dantonio was quoted by the Detroit Free Press as questioning whether the penalty calls against his DB's reflected a change in standards for pass defenders.  Many media members questioned the calls against MSU.  In MSU's most recent home game vs. Purdue, MSU was only called for 2 penalties for 14 yards.

I think the key determinant in Michigan's upcoming game at Michigan State will be whether the refs fairly call MSU penalties, especially for pass interference/defensive holding and roughing the passer.  If Big Ten officials continue to experience a "backlash" effect and exhibit reluctance to fairly call MSU penalties in East Lansing, it will doom Michigan's chances for a big road win.  In addition, excessively rough play by MSU (as has occurred in past match-ups) could also result in injuries to Michigan's key players.

Gobgoblue

October 25th, 2013 at 1:23 AM ^

If we only have one turnover, I believe we win.

However, I think many are underestimating the points MSU will put up.  This is their season.  No way they stay with the mean and score 14 or 17 points.  I bet Michigan puts up 35, but MSU is right there in the high 20's.  

markusr2007

October 24th, 2013 at 6:17 PM ^

Michigan is 33rd in the nation in fewest penalties (36 year to date, 5.14 per game). They're in good company, with Alabama tied at 33rd in penalties.

Michigan State is ranked 89th in the nation in fewest penalties (47 year to date, 6.71 per game). Their neighbor at 89th is Notre Dame, the team they lost to.

Is it hard to predict what happens when UM comes to EL? No.

The last two MSU home games read like the refs got paid off after the USF season high:

  WMU, 6 penalties 75 yards

  USF 9 penalties, 94 yards

  YSU 2 penalities 19 yards

  @ND 8 penalties, 86 yards

  @Iowa 8 penalties, 70 yadrs

  Purdon't, 2 penalties, 14 yards

In short, I would expect a lot of helmet twisting, uncalled pass interference and adult onset blindness for the refs.

Still, MSU is not the worst.  Get a load of Nebraska at 97th in the nation in fewest penalties with 43 year to date after just 6 games.


http://www.ncaa.com/stats/football/fbs/current/team/697/p2

gremlin

October 24th, 2013 at 6:44 PM ^

This is a fair post.  Narduzzi's (Dantonio's under Tressel really) strategy has always been to play ultra aggressive with his DB's, and expect that not every penalty will be called.  If you think about it, a ref is not going to throw a flag every single play.  Therefore, if you interfere on every single passing play (like they did against ND), the ref is only going to call some percentage of those interferences penalties.  This then allows you to stack the box without worrying about getting beat deep.  Great strategy if you ask me.  

gremlin

October 24th, 2013 at 7:46 PM ^

I disagree.  I also saw a lot of interfering that was not called that game.  From what I gleaned, MSU"s DB's are very skilled at interfering in manenrs that are difficult for the officials to see.  They seem to know where the officials are on the field, etc.  They also use their bodies to push a lot when the ball is in the air and try to act like they were just looking for the ball (incidental contact), when they clearly knew where the ND receiver was.

03 Blue 07

October 24th, 2013 at 9:00 PM ^

You realize you are describing what many would call (in a vacuum) excellent, crafty defensive back play, right? Or, alternately, "NFL cornerback play?". Hell, I WANT our DB's to do exactly what you describe- that's the defensive equivalent of offensive ninja fakes and body control. It's part of the game, and a mental/technique one at that. 

Ernis

October 24th, 2013 at 11:29 PM ^

As much as I hate whining about the refs... I agree with this. Refs, being human, will bend to social pressure -- they know they aren't expected to call every foul that occurs. Holding in the trenches is a good example of this, as some say it occurs nearly every down.

The question is, if a coach is banking on an unseen limit to the amount of PI the refs will be willing to call based on their subjective expectation of normalcy, is that a legit strategy? I am thinking yes. If the Spartin's can be skilled enough to get away with consistently bending the rules, then we ought to be able to counteract the effect with equivalent skill. Tit for tat.

Minus The Houma

October 24th, 2013 at 7:03 PM ^

In agreement with the masses. There are so many no calls a game. We really only see or hear about the most blatant and seemingly important ones. I chalk it up to a wash at the end of the game. If you needed that 1 more play to win and there is a no call, I'm sorry not quite enough was done as a whole and it wasn't deserved.

B-Nut-GoBlue

October 24th, 2013 at 7:17 PM ^

Good grief, those bitching know what this thread is going to entail so if you've nothing to add but griping about the subject, like, go take a walk?!

It's a fair question, one I've been pondering lately as well.  I could see the referees calling a decent game in the beginning, ignoring the crowd and trying to set a fairness(?) tone.  I can also see things being close in the second half and a eventually seein a call or two biting us in the ass, something like a drive killer where a WR gets mugged but no call or a terrible spot occuring on a 3rd/4th and short.

Leonhall

October 24th, 2013 at 7:23 PM ^

I really think Borges calls an aggressive game and we are able to pass the ball deep; then set up some decent runs. I think it is a 7-10 point game most of the way and we close it out late and win. MSU has a great defense, I feel pretty good about our chances. 

Magnum P.I.

October 24th, 2013 at 7:30 PM ^

Fair question. MSU has made a strategy out of toeing the line between aggressive play and fouling. They seem to rely on a certain level of leeway from the referees. Usually it works out for them. Against ND, it burned them. It's a risk that any physical secondary assumes. 

Seth

October 24th, 2013 at 7:34 PM ^

Well, yeah.

In fact they hold a lot on both sides of the ball. That's how they play ball, and it is effective. Michigan can still win even if MSU pushes the boundaries of a rule that is notoriously difficult to call straight.

DefenseWins

October 24th, 2013 at 7:35 PM ^

The fact that this thread exists is a pretty sad commentary of our fan base. Refs are relevant in most games. Lets wait until after the game to judge their performance and the effect it had on the game. It may be an issue but let's not complain about it prematurely.

Aghakhan

October 24th, 2013 at 7:37 PM ^

I think the key determinant in Michigan's upcoming game at Michigan State will be whether the refs fairly call MSU penalties...
I think it's probably more important which team can block and get off blocks.

Phinaeus Gage

October 24th, 2013 at 7:40 PM ^

The referees are pretty far down on my list of concerns for the game. Number 1 - Borges play calling. Number 2 - Turnovers. If Borges calls a decent game and we win the turnover battle, I think it's a 7-10 point victory. Refereeing is somewhere down on the list after stopping their run game and making Cook move his feet.

247Hinsdale

October 24th, 2013 at 7:43 PM ^

No game is called by the letter of the law. There will always be hand fighting and things of that nature. As long as it is called the same both ways, that's really all you can hope for. If the refs are allowing aggressive defensive play, it is up to our defenders to adjust.

bo_lives

October 24th, 2013 at 7:56 PM ^

There is a reason sports have rules. You are supposed to follow them. This "adjust to the refs" crap is nonsense. Our running game is a huge weakness for us, whereas our passing game is quite capable of being uber-lethal as evidenced by last Saturday. Nobody should be allowed to tilt the game to their advantage by fudging the rules. And yet I am absolutely certain that that is MSU's primary gameplan at this point.

jackw8542

October 24th, 2013 at 8:18 PM ^

It is particularly important for the refs to enforce rules that are intended to protect the players.  Many of the things MSU did (particularly Gholston and that DB) were intended to injure our players, particularly Denard.  Those kinds of penalties have to be called and, when it is something that endangers a player, the culprit thrown out of the game.

I Have A Gnarly Face

October 24th, 2013 at 7:47 PM ^

I think the referees will absolutely be favoring the Sparties. Quite often, the referees tend to favor the home team in rivalry games.

bo_lives

October 24th, 2013 at 7:49 PM ^

I  watched the ND-MSU game and every single PI call was warrented under the interpretation of the rules for as long as I can remember. In fact, it seemed like the refs started getting reluctant to keep calling it (simply because they were calling it so much) even though the MSU dbs kept on blatantly holding/interfering the ND receivers. 

I was apalled that Dantonio actually had the nerve to go and bitch about it. Which calls didn't they like? Is their argument basically that no one could possibly commit that many pass interference penalties in a game? Even if some of them had been questionable calls, they committed enough actual PI penalties that there's no way they should get the benefit of the doubt for any 50/50 situation.

Bobby Boucher

October 24th, 2013 at 7:56 PM ^

To be honest it's probably very difficult for any ref to keep up with the amount of penalties MSU commits during any given game.  If they're missing calls, it's probably because they're overwhelmed!

MGlobules

October 24th, 2013 at 8:25 PM ^

there is a school of thought, shared by brighter people than these--including much of the Detroit professional press--that MSU fouls so regulary that the refs can only call a small fraction of their actual INfractions, that this gives them a certain edge that is otherwise unobtainable on the field of play.

I tend to share that view. 

But these manly men are going to prove just how very manly they are by dissing your very legitimate query. Because a manly man does not complain, he just. . . something something.

This place didn't used to be so lame. 

EDIT: Is that Arthur Miller and MM, btw? Cool photo. I think that Miller wrote for the Daily too, right? I know he won a Hopwood.

saveferris

October 25th, 2013 at 7:36 AM ^

Yes, and so is implying impropriety in officiating without any quantitative proof.  The refs will make some good calls and some bad calls and none of us are probably going to be objective about what we consider which is which.

Acting like Michigan has never benefited from bad officiating in the past is being pretty disingenuous. 

Spar-Dan

October 25th, 2013 at 6:22 PM ^

"including much of the Detroit professional press"

Are you talking about the same profressional press that reported on UM concerving practice violations that lead to probation? 

And, BTW, your defense might want to consider being a little more aggressive.  It wouldn't hurt.

NOLA Wolverine

October 24th, 2013 at 8:34 PM ^

Even if we wanted to entertain this I don't exactly get what you want from the board. If you want to dig up statistics on the officiating crew's outings featuring Michigan State and then other teams as control cases, then go for it. Other than that, analysis will be ready pending the final whistle of the game. Did you just want to make this point and you decided to frame it as a question to make it a board topic?