Bo inside all of us
- Member for
- 5 years 41 weeks
|23 weeks 2 days ago||did!||
I did! Thanks for mentioning. Unique that a recent professional experience would pertain. Unique and unfortunate, I suppose; but these issues are really huge in academia these days. I guess it takes football players getting involved in order for it to make big news. Cheers.
|23 weeks 2 days ago||in response to your questions||
I'm honestly not sure where I come down on the matter. On one hand, yes, the legal system is the best way to handle general disputes. However, these situations can be terribly gray and the university does have an obligation to ensure the safety of their students. The university has the right to play judge and jury because attending the institution is a privledge not a right. That's the thinking anyway. If the standard was set by criminal courts, the complainant could wait their entire academic career to resolve the matter, and in that time spend thousands of dollars in tuition at an institution where they're in fear of sexual assualt. That doesn't have much of a ring to it, when a parent asks if their child will be safe while living in the dorms.
It's a tough, tough issue and not as easily encapsulated as consuming media folk prefer.
|23 weeks 2 days ago||in response to your questions||
I would tend to agree with your comments, at least in theory. That said, the gumption and certitude it takes a student to raise such a complaint, go through the process, etc. is, in my experience, a significant deterrent to abuse. As I've witnessed, these hearings are very emotionally traumatizing for the complainant. The write a written statement, and are asked questions about the statement. They can also be asked questions based on the accused statements. It can be really tough. Furthermore, there is significant inquiry and questioning. No one takes expulsion lightly. Anecdotally, I've never seen a complainant "celebrate a win", mostly they just feel a sense of relief that the accused isn't going to be on campus any more.
That said, your final sentence is scarily true. Again, many of these cases are between people who are familiar with one another, as most date rape is. They may have been sexually active in the past, for example. One may have consented while highly intoxicated, blacked out, then awakened to believe they didn't consent. One of the more detailed rules at some universities is that it is a violation to proceed with sex if the person is 'temporarily' unable to consent, aka, said yes, blacked out, said no.
It's terrifying for all parties involved.... including the jury.
|23 weeks 2 days ago||agreed, for the most part||
I agree, the policy can be very troubling, and difficult as all hell to resolve.
In part, the 51/49 standard is in place, as I understand it, because:
1. providing a safe place for a student to live and study is the utmost responsibility of the university.
2. attending the university is a privledge not a right.
3. the accused privacy is granted (except when he's a football player apparently).
I'm not arguing for or against the policy, but that seems to be the rationale.
To your other questions, the hearings' proceedings are subpoena-able, as I understand them. I know of a hearing where a lawyer was present and basically told the accused to not say anything. As you mention, if it's also a criminal case, non-participation is about the only logical choice. Of course, that increases the liklihood that you'll get expelled.... tough spot to be in.
|23 weeks 3 days ago||in response to your questions||
Universities are required by law to provide a safe venue for their students. As such, they must expel students for matter beyond academics when required. A straight A student can blow up a dorm room, for example. That's grounds for expulsion.
These matters are adjudicated by university rules that transcend the athletic department. They don't just pick up the phone and say 'oh man, we've got a kicker here, better break all the rules of privacy to tell this one to the coach'. There was very little Hoke could legally say or do until the case was resolved.
I wonder if Winston was the accused in a Title IX violation or whether he was just accused to the police. The legal standards are totally different than the Title IX standards. If a complaint was raised at the university by Title IX standards, yes, he could be kicked out without being found guilty in a criminal or civil court.
|23 weeks 3 days ago||related experience||
I'm a fulltime faculty member at a university I won't name, where I sit on the panel that reviews these types of cases. I do not suggest I know the intricacies of athletic department relations with adjudicating bodies in the institution, but I'll share a few of my experiences / insights in no particular order.
1. "Penn State" is a catchphrase these days, and a scary one to institutions. Since then Title IX adherence has taken on a whole new meaning. See here for a brief introduction. http://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/docs/title-ix-rights-201104.pdf. Many institutions are overhauling their related procedures.
2. These procedures require privacy for both the complainant and the accused. It's not out of the question that the accused in this case was granted that privacy, particularly given his public profile. I think the discourse of this board suggests the necessity for privacy. As such, it seems appropriate to me that Hoke would use some non-descript euphemism like 'family matters'. Again, the accused has a right to privacy and any violation of that are grounds for complaint from the accused.
3. The complainant has an abundance of rights, including no contact or any discourse with the accused. I bet the university upheld that rule.
4. Schools are required to deal with this in a timely manner, typically 60 days. It is possible that the complainant didn't file a complaint until recently, but who knows? It's possible (I haven't a clue) that a complaint could have been filed recently, despite the event occurring significantly in the past. Perhaps the complainant started with legal complaints, but was unable to generate enough evidence to press charges, then later filed a complaint with the school.
5. As Brian mentioned in the posting, the rules of Title IX say only "is it more or less likely that a violation occurred?" Not "beyond a reasonable doubt", not "preponderance of evidence", etc. Genuinely 51/49%. This is rightly, and strongly, in favor of the complainant. The nature and purpose of these rules is to provide a safe learning environment for each student equally. Any perceived violation will and should inevitably favor the complainant. As such, it makes these matters extremely difficult to adjudicate.
Recently I went through continuing training in preparation for such a case. It was grueling. Until you've had that experience, you have no idea how nebulous these cases may be. Between substance abuse clouding party’s judgment, memory, and the general disposition of 18-22 year old people, it's really difficult to come to a conclusion. I went into the training experience assuming I'd side with the complainant, and came out of the experience thinking to myself.... "I know lots of people who might have done something like that." You'd be surprised, really.
7. Given "Penn State" I have a really hard time believing that there was some major cover-up involved to protect a freaking middling kicker on a middling big ten team. The ramifications of the cover up are just far, far too great. I'm going to assume there's a reasonable explanation until it's clarified otherwise. I suggest you all do the same. The kid got kicked out of school, and publicly shamed. That may not be the only punishment, or it may be more that he deserved. You never will know exactly what happened; I suggest you leave it at that. The university is required to protect the privacy of all involved until the case is resolved and that may have driven the timing. I would be shocked if they were obligated to inform the football coach of these proceedings.
8. Man oh man these situations are tough.
|43 weeks 2 days ago||funny you mention it...||
Funny you mention it...I've lived in two countries ignorant people refer to as "third world" (an outdated and naive term with enormous racial/prejudicial connotations).
I've also spent a significant amount of time in Damascus, Syria (not exactly Iran, but I bet about the same to you). Does that mean my comments are now valid in your eyes?
No, I know it's debatable. However, it's coincidental (not ironic) that you'd use such hyperbole.
I have no problem with people being ejected for disruptive, inappropriate behavior; and if you're doing something dumb you should pay the price. On the other hand, such "preventative punishment" is prudish, and in my mind goes too far.
My friend threw the bottle in the trash voluntarily, was totally compliant with the police, and simply wanted the matter closed. Dragging him out and mocking him went beyond my sense of what's right, and certainly went beyond what I've experienced in other countries. Meanwhile, as mentioned in these comments, someone observed entirely out of bounds behavior by a dude who clearly should have been booted but was allowed to stay.
I'm certain all of the actions and reactions discussed won't stop any of these people from doing similarly again.
|43 weeks 3 days ago||speaking from experience...||
I have a friend (40 yrs old, normally dressed and relatively sober) who got kicked out of the stadium 3 minutes after entering, 30 minutes before kickoff. It seems the ole Jim Beam traveler doesn't just get tossed in the trash if the cops see it, the dude carrying the traveler also gets kicked out. Pretty harsh. Most annoying, the cop asked my friend "so how much did you pay for your ticket?" Hopefully the cop spent the game dealing with drunks and never had a chance to watch the game. With that kind of police state, I'm surprised the numbers are so low.
|1 year 13 weeks ago||curmudgeon location?||
Yeah, Fox and Hound sucks for many demographics, particularly, say, ones who take the game seriously and don't feel like listening to chicks jabber on about nothing when the game is on the line, or dummies who cheer/remark over every single thing that happens. I'm all for a discussion of an alternate location for the serious fans; the ones who are going to pound a dozen beers while staring intently with clenched jaw until the real critical moments occur.... then go absolutely apeshit, if and when appropriate.
Who's with me? You don't have to be an old dude in years, but it helps.
Otherwise, you'll find me at Fox and Hound, well fed beforehand because the food sucks, complaining about the beer selection because this is an awesome beer town and that corporate joint doesn't represent, annoyed by the dummies, taking walks to light up if the stress gets too much, and making a total fucking scene if all goes as we all hope!!!!
GO BLUE BABY!!!
|4 years 21 weeks ago||i don't get it||
a. How can you overlook something 7 months in the future?
Jeebuz, this is not a good thread.
|4 years 22 weeks ago||priorities?||
Agreed, no need to overbooze. What you want to be doing is focusing on getting laid, not getting drunk. You have decades of time to get drunk with the boys. The years of easily pursuaded college girls paying any attention to you vanish more quickly than shot number 10 on the night of your bday. Remember this day for something special, like a bj in the Ashley's bathroom! It is your birthday, ask a girl for something special.
|4 years 30 weeks ago||granderson||
Man oh man, I'd hate to see Granderson go, love the dude, but I think you have to do it for the right price. The current team is, sadly, done. There's just too much dead weight on that team: Guillen, Bonderman, Robertson, Willis, Maggie (Man that's a ton of cash pissed down the drain), and there's not enough offensive production. While Granderson did have a few, a precious few, big hits down the stretch, the numbers don't pan out. As a #7 hitter maybe, but lets not forget we may still have Everett, Laird and Inge erasing any hope of a hit out of the bottom 1/3 of the lineup. Where the hell are we going to hide another weak bat?
I really hate to say it, but deal him for a great 2B/SS prospect (with some extra thrown in), and I'd sadly accept it (cheering for him where ever he ends up-- cept the Yanks, of course).
|4 years 34 weeks ago||woah, easy there||
Magnus: "You can take the boy out of Pahokee..."
That's just wrong, man. There are a hell of a lot more kids who come out of that troubled area, transcend their challenges and make a go of it as a college student-athlete than there are players who get themselves in trouble.
stereotype much? Please, be careful. Thanks.
|4 years 36 weeks ago||it's not if, it's how...||
how do i kill myself?
|4 years 44 weeks ago||yankees||
I'd prefer facing the Yanks in a 5 game series as opposed to a 7 gamer any day of the week. Look what it did for us a few years back. Win 1 of 2 in the Bronx, come home, wrap it up, get the hell to the next round.
Plus I like Verlander or Jackson in the game 4 and 5 slots (in either order). I don't think we have the offense to battle them for 7 games.
Roll on Tigers! Roll on!
What a great weekend to be a fan of Michigan sports!
|4 years 44 weeks ago||touche!||
as long as he's either pissed on or his hair is on fire, i'm good.
|4 years 44 weeks ago||don't care||
what do I care? that dude, his co-worker (I'm showing restraint), and his paper are dead to me. I hope he picks against michigan every game of the season, and I hope he's wrong every damn time.
I wouldn't piss on his head if his hair was on fire.
|4 years 44 weeks ago||maybe that's because...||
"sex at noon taxes"?
|5 years 10 weeks ago||3-9||
"I do not believe they have fully adjusted to their new recruiting reality... But I also don’t think that they realize they can recruit a fast, fast, fast, tall or at least not short slot receiver yet (and lots of other recruiting possibilities as well.)"
You're drinking the maize and blue Kool-Aid. I drink it too, but come on man.
3-9, new coach, different system, program on the decline, a series of recent recruiting class flops... what do you expect?
Listen, there are a lot of good teams, with good history and reputation out there who can go 9-3, 8-4 every year, like Lloyd could. I know, I know, the helmets. They get you a player or two. But Jesus Christ, you make it sound like we're USC, LSU or Florida.
I think RR has been a rockstar of a recruiter. Take a look at our O-line next season. That's the place to start filling the cupboard and he nailed it. Next will have to be the D, where, if you'll note, Lloyd was good a getting one, one single good recruit per season. Where'd that leave us?
CARLOS FREAKING BROWN! I'd take last seasons recruiting class over many of the recent years prior. I think that tells you all you need to know.
|5 years 11 weeks ago||LMFAO||
You are talking about Sparty right? The east lansing sparty?
Sparty dude. Sparty.
|5 years 13 weeks ago||well said route 66||
gimme one of them doggie wheel chairs.
|5 years 14 weeks ago||GTFO||
|5 years 15 weeks ago||hack a shaq||
hack a shaq is for pussies. i for one am eternally grateful JB never even considered that. he's a man. be a man, don't be desperate. jeezus.
|5 years 17 weeks ago||you're right...||
so true. for example, I emailed the article to a huge UT friend of mine. His response? "I'm starting to really like Kiffin."
Personally, I wouldn't mind too much if RR took a few shots at TransSweaterVestite but I don't mind keeping it above the fray.
|5 years 19 weeks ago||oh man||
do i have to make another stupid joke to get y'all off the stupid topic? are tort reform conversations next?
ah hell, here we go...
is that columbus? i doubt it. if it was we'd see a trashcan in the photo and a bunch of 'students' would be eating out of it.
is that columbus? the only thing that long in columbus is line outside a cheerleaders dorm room.
is that columbus? oh yeah, thanks for those awesome years of 2004-2008.
is that columubus? must be, I think I see sweatervest tongue kissing his kitten in one of those windows.
|5 years 19 weeks ago||no surprise||
no surprise columbus dudes are talking up their town as bigger than it really is. that's routine for them, their girlfriends hear it all the time.
|5 years 19 weeks ago||columbus?||
wow, i didn't realize that shit town had multi-story buildings. the only thing i thought got stacked on top of each other in columbus were football players in the shower.
are you sure that's columbus? I don't see any knuckle dragging whores drunk on the street, and that photo had to be taken after 8am.
|5 years 20 weeks ago||chitown||
someone has said on here before that it's fat cat alums in chicago that shut down that idea. they want to be able to drive home after the game. dunno if that's true but it kinda makes sense.... for them. i find them to be insufferable pussies then, but that's just me. maybe they could build a fancy dorm for them to stay in, with quiche for brunch and bidets in the bathroom.
|5 years 20 weeks ago||props||
props to you for making the eugene trip. sad it couldn't work out better for you. i knew we didn't have a chance in that game, unfortunately. that place is a killer.
|5 years 20 weeks ago||my loudest favorites||
#3--UM vs Washington, (03?)
#2--Dez punt return vs. OSU
#1--Dez 4&1 layout touchdown catch vs ND.