What would it take - cornerback
“Michigan did what everyone said they should do and junked the press man, mostly, so they could run a bunch of zones…They did this very badly….The main problem is that they don't know what they're doing…..Is this forgivable because of covid and a sudden realization you can't play man
Absolutely not. This is a three month fall camp where you apparently didn't teach anyone anything. You got obliterated by Ohio State two years ago and saw your approach last year repeatedly exploited. You need to run zones. You had plenty of time to practice them with experienced players. And Michigan is nowhere near where they need to be.”
Those excerpts are from the Indiana UFR.
The secondary (and most notably, Vincent Grey and any other cornerback not named Gemon Green (and sometimes even Gemon Green), were not very good last year. For this, I do not blame those players, I blame coaching. First, the coaches put the in a press man scheme that they were not skilled enough to be successful at. Then they switched them to a scheme they had a better chance to succeed in, but did not adequately coach them up to succeed.
We have all the same players this year, why should I believe anything is going to be different this year?
“The 2019 secondary replaced its top six producers from the 2018 season and still ranked second nationally in fewest touchdown passes allowed (nine) and third in passing yards allowed per game (167.8).”
That is an excerpt from the mgoblue bio for our new cornerbacks coach/defensive passing game coordinator, Steve Clinscale, and that is part of the reason that I feel confident that our cornerbacks will be improved. The second is that there are multiple potential players who Clinscale could coach up.
The most likely to start is Gemon Green. Green is entering his 4th year and was a 3 star, rated 536 overall and 47th rated cornerback. Under other circumstances we would be very happy with his progress. A middling 3 star, who redshirts as a freshman and becomes an important special teams player is a reasonable trajectory. Ideally the next step would have been for him to gain some valuable starting experience as a redshirt sophomore, not to be thrust into the role of #1 cornerback in a struggling secondary. Had he been the #2 cornerback next to Ambry Thomas last year, I suspect we would be feeling much better about him. I don’t think that it is unreasonable that with a fall camp tutored by Steve Clinskale, we will see significant improvement.
The number two corner is less certain. Here is what Brian had to say in the Michigan State UFR. “Michigan has one potentially decent corner, Gemon Green. The guys on the other side probably turned in the worst CB performance in the history of this blog between them. Yes, I am including those Rich Rod defenses in there. James Rogers is off the hook. Early JT Floyd, have a day. Boubacar Cissoko, go 1972 Dolphins up in here.”
Before we entirely write off, Vincent Grey, it may be worth exploring the aforementioned “early” JT Floyd a bit more. These are some of Floyd’s 2010 UFRs as summarized by Brian in his 2012 preview. “His last two games UFRed in 2010 were a –8.5 against Iowa ("oh my God the slants") and the –9 against PSU ("awful, awful, awful").”. Grey’s Michigan State UFR score was -12.5. The other four games that got UFRed last year were a bit better. He ranged from +1 (Indiana), to -5 (Minnesota).
What else did Brian’s discussion have to say when discussing the surprising improvement he showed in 2011. “The guy can play. He's got flaws, only some of which will get worked out, and his top end is a stray All Big Ten vote or two and a seventh-round pick, and who cares about any of that when JT Floyd can play football. We may not see that transformation from Grey, but if we don’t, there are other options.
Those options include three 4 stars. Redshirt sophomore, Jalen Perry was a 4 star rated 200 overall and 23 at cornerback and redshirt freshmen Andre Seldon (161 overall, #11 cornerback) and Darion Green-Warren (190 overall, #14 cornerback)
There is also three star redshirt sophomore, DJ Turner (400 overall, number 40 cornerback). Here is 247’s take on Turner at the beginning of spring practice.
“And then there's Turner, who has a blend of speed, technique and tenacity that make him a genuine candidate to start. It sounds like he missed some time during fall camp last year that may have cost him the starting job. If he can string together a few strong practices, he can make up some ground.”
There are a number of other additional candidates on the roster, but they seem like longer shots to start. Amongst Grey, Turner, the three four stars and several others on the roster (speedy, 3 star, redshirt, Eamonn Dennis and veteran redshirt junior 3 star Sammy Faustin), I am hopeful that Clinscale can coach up one or more decent qbs. If he can only find one, a second option is to have Daxton Hill play nickel and have someone else step up as a third safety. Overall, I don’t expect cornerback to be the tire fire it was last year, and it is even possible that on this defense it could be a relative strength.
The talent is a concern. It’s not going to matter either way if the coaches don’t do their jobs.
Clinkscale...
Not Clinscale
Not Clinskcale
Rudock…Ruddock…Rudok
Raburn…Rayburn…Raybyrne
You mean
Rudddddddock
Ruddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddock...
Gray
Not Grey.
I sure hope he can coach up the dbs in addition to the qbs.
Yeah, on *this* defense it could be a relative strength.
I don’t think that’s the uplifting end to the post (I assume) you intended it to be.
We have little proven talent at CB. The same could said for the D-line beyond 1 fairly surefire star. We're gonna get torched.
The difference between the Dline and the CB's is talent level. Hinton is a 5 star Hitch and Mazi Smith are high 4 stars both just outside the top 100.
As blue in dc mentioned Germon Green and Vincent Gray were the 536th and 700th ranked recruits. And the leading back-up, DJ Turner, is a 3 star 400th ranked overall. Maybe we just don't have the talent at CB.
That is not the case on the line.
And the only CB we brought in the 2021 class, McBurrows, is the 553rd ranked recruit. CB recruiting needed a MAJOR overhaul. Hoping the new staff can provide that.
I realized that I was damming with faint praise. That having been said, I think the cornerbacks are going to be better than most here seem too,
It doesn't take much for them to be better than most anticipate them to be. That said, you can't overcome talent deficiencies. Maybe they can be coached up to some degree but as low as these guys are rated they would to be coached way above their pay grade to be successful against a unit such as OSU's WR's which are the best in all CFB. They will get torched by OSU. But to give credit, it won't take much for them to be better than most of us think they will be.
We have 3 four star cornerbacks on the roster today.
Well, if they're any worse, we're not going to want to see it.
I guess the hope if there is one here is scheme. While I don’t think it’s ideal to install a brand new defense and hope that’s why you are better, we don’t have much choice. Through lack of effort, incompetence or gross negligence we failed to recruit elite corners that could play the defense we ran the last few years and then tried half heartedly to modify the defense to fit them mid season.
the best case scenario here is that the scheme is a better fit for the talent and is taught better. That could provide a workable bend-don’t-break type of a secondary that could hold us in games a bit better. It’s possible, as we’ve seen other teams with less than elite secondaries pull it off from time to time.
the realistic scenario is that we have growing pains that lead to some embarrassing plays while improving overall from last years disaster factory and the secondary still costs us a game or two on their own because we just don’t have the horses to lock down any team with more than one good receiver.
I don't think it is just scheme that brings hope--it is scheme plus coaching up the players to their talent level.
I was never a fan of Don Brown's personnel choices or his playcalling--and the longer he was here the longer he relied more on that than on getting the top end recruits. It was always more about his defense rather than the quality of the players.
Harbaugh should have promoted Greg Mattison and hired/promoted a co-DC to learn from Mattison. There was no need to overhaul the entire defensive scheme, then come back to a similar scheme now--a Ravens-centered 3-4 team with zone featured.
Personally, I like solving problems with aggression AND intelligence. No one who watched the MSU game saw any signs of the latter. I continue to believe that Brown was checked out last season. His whole attitude was one of resignation. The players see that and respond accordingly. Here’s hoping the defense surprises and makes some stops. One thing I would like to see is after making a big play, that player stay on the field. I think they overdid it with the substitutions, letting the opponent’s offense off the hook far too often.
A lot of Don Brown's defenses were predicated on great corner play. Our 2 guys blanket their 2 guys and we can blitz with just about everyone else. The plug and play system just didn't work. So they went to zone, not Brown's strength and turned the D into something quite predicable.
A cause for some guarded optimism is Clinkscale. At Kentucky he has taken similarly ranked CB's and turned them into NFL corners. Brandin Echols, Lonnie Johnson and Mike Edwards were all 3 stars that were drafted. Although I thought Zordich could coach too.
Clinkscale, unlike Zordich, is also a pretty solid recruiter. With the UM brand behind him I expect to see a significant upgrade in the talent we bring in. He managed to keep Will Johnson and get Myles Pollard whom has a pretty good offer sheet.
Are there any examples of Zordich coaching up lower ranked players? I feel like mostly he was blessed with high ranked players that others recruited.
Channing Stribling was a 3 star that was 2nd team All Big Ten, played in the NFL and is still playing in Canada.
He went from being a Vincent Gray type of goat as well.
Yeah, I am ok with some optimism here. What gives me some pause is that the Ravens D prioritized upper echelon DBs in their scheme over some other spots and put a lot of pressure on the secondary to succeed. I don’t think MacDonald can do that from day 1 with what he has right now outside of maybe Dax Hill (assuming he bounces back in a big way).
I think Gray, with his size and experience, can really thrive in a zone-focused scheme with good coaching. Green continued to improve his man technique and was pretty good with route predictions. One or two of the 4-star CBs and one of the 4-star safeties from last year need to have shown growth, which is not out of the question.
I wish there was more talk about year-to-year grading so we could see growth. The argument of "well last year this person sucked except for in..." leads to some very unimaginative outlooks at the next season. Most fan predictions focus on two things from the previous season: really bad plays and the big stats. Peppers, Gary--both were seen as not as good as advertised after year 1. People complained about them not being stat stuffers with many memorable plays.
Progression due to experience and coaching and player talent grades should account for more than it has by many on this board. Case in point, Gray was awful against MSU, so then he was going to be awful in every game after that--he was not. His coaches screwed him in that game, but he improved in the rest of the season. He was solid in 2019, which is why he became the de facto #1 after Ambry sat out. MSU was his basement, below his floor.
As for the defense scheme switch, having an entire offseason helps, versus trying to switch play calls in season when it isn't what you've done all year. Most defenses who switch their identity midseason don't just flip to being better at something.
Playing zone is not as simple as just playing in your area--guys still need to recognize route trees and be on the same page with switch offs. Repetition, communication, trust. LBs have to make the correct read, too, and LBs in our system have been a perennially inconsistent group with coverage.
I'm looking forward to this defense because it is akin to what many of the best pro defenses run (Ravens, Bears) and I think they have the type of backers to play the system well as the season goes forward.
I'll be happy to see at least two of the 2020 guys who were all top 250 start to insert themselves into the defense's present and future: Seldon, Green-Warren, Morant, Paige. Even Moten, who was just outside 250. Add Perry from 2019 and the expectation from coaches should be to develop those guys.
Well said. Both starters were new last year, we had a stubborn defensive coordinator and the lack of a safeties coach suggests there may have been some other problems in the coaching room. Acknowledging those things is not the same as suggesting they are acceptable. But if you can’t acknowledge them, it is hard to see what realistic opportunities for change.
Some look at Smith and Hinton and say they are high four stars, therefore they are our best hope for improvement. I see very little realistic depth behind them and a coach has underperformed. I am hopeful, but not optimistic.
With cornerbacks, I see two returning starters who had problems but showed real improvement and room for more. I see a pretty deep bench of guys with potential and I see a new coach and defensive coordinator who may be able to unlock more potential.
I'm actually fairly confident about Gemon. I thought he showed flashes of being a pretty dang good corner last year and his trajectory is pointed up. At the very least, I think he's a solid corner. The other side is a different story. I can't trust Grey based on what we've seen thus far. Who knows though, his skill set and athleticism is probably much more suited for zone than it is man so he may benefit from the scheme change. Its just tough to get that Michigan State performance out of my head. That was as bad of a performance as you'll ever see.
The best plan for 2021 might be to keep the defense off the field as much as possible. These previews are not encouraging.
My writing is clearly way worse than I thought. I don’t think that our cornerbacks are going to be world beaters this year, but I think they will end up being better than just ok. I really would not be surprised if our second qb ends up being one of the 4 stars that no one is talking about, or of Turner turns out to be under-rated.
Body blows.
I’m hopeful with scheme. MacDonald and Clinkscale should be able to self scout enough that they can’t put guys on islands. I’m imaging they’ll be running some form of Man-match so that they can put guys in advantageous spots and deploy it differently to get some RPS wins. I think with the talent (or lack there of) they have at corner to patchwork a scheme that fits the skill sets of their guys. IMO it would fit well with the talent and experience at safety too. Having Dax and 5th year Brad Hawkins back there is going to allow them to be more creative with how they handle assignments, I hope.
There's more room for a surprisingly positive result running zone schemes (that they've actually been adequately trained to run), because there may be a great deal of hidden talent on the depth chart that was totally inadequate at man but might turn out to be quite good at zone (that they've been adquately trained to run... yes, I'm going to just drop this every time I say zone).
The star ratings in h.s. recruiting are heavily camp-centric, and the DB drills at camp are just 1-on-1 vs the top receivers. The recruiting deck is stacked against guys who might be geniuses at the kind of quick read/react skills that zone requires and rewards.
When a guy comes out of h.s. and can't turn and run at a college level, that's what you've got for 4 years. But if a guy can get a lot better and uncover a hidden skill for zone even they didn't know they had... once they've been adequately trained.
Outside of OSU and maybe PSU...doubt there are many teams on UM schedule with more 4star CBs and/or overwhelming talent at WR. Really need the coaching and scheme to get the most out of the talent.
How can anyone even answer this without having seen this defensive scheme? Look. I'm the most pessimistic Michigan fan this side of Phil formerly from Detroit. But, even I'm willing to wait and see what this D staff can do against Washington. Last year we had a D coordinator who openly hates zone trying to implement zone. It was the worst D since Scott Shafer was forced to implement a 3-3-5 stack that he had never run in his entire life. Honestly I'm more concerned about Mazi, Hinton, Oregon St guy holding up in the middle than I am about corner. I think we recruited a bunch of zone corners and asked them to play exclusively press man. Now we have a zone dude coaching zone to zone guys. What we don't have is any proven beef up front to be a hole plugger and a run stuffer.
"Phil formerly from Detroit"
Only a regular WTKA listener would know who this clown is.
Western Michigan is an unfortunate early test for our secondary. They return most of their air attack from last season and will be effective.
Time will tell.
An early test is not a bad thing.
DBs especially CBs we’re a problems the last few seasons. But the bigger issue was lack of interior pressure up front. There are enough 4 stars and proven position coaches that the CBs should be ok…as long as pressure is created up front.
While UFRs are just one person’s viewpoint, we actually got a fair amount of pressure especially before Hutchinson got hurt. In the MSU game he rated us at +14 on pressure but -14 on coverage. Unfortunately we have lost both Paye and Kemp who were key parts of that.
Green will be fine. He looked like he developed quite nicely for a first year starter over the course of the season. The problem is Gray. He is a physical guy who is a good tackler, but he's not very fast and doesn't have very fluid hips so his change of direction is not great. His skill is probably better suited for safety, he's got the height for it, but is a little thin, but he's not a P5 CB IMO. Perry is a disappointment for his recruiting profile. He will likely never start. Turner will probably be the starter early if he can beat out Gray, but I'm not overly excited about that either. I think our best bet for a good corner is Seldon. I'm hoping he gets a shot because he has the most upside. His only knock is his height, but he seems to do well despite it.
I've heard that a majority of our secondary room dealt with COVID at some point during the summer/early fall prior to the season. Seldon has come out and said that he was so impacted that he lost a ton of weight and wasn't able to do anything last year.
There are a lot of things that you have to take with a grain of salt from last year. Guys were clawing back from being sick and not conditioned and still gave it their fall. I'm expecting HUGE leaps from the secondary this year.
So much this. We can't analyze last year without bringing up covid. Our #1 WR and #1 CB sat the year out and still got drafted to the NFL. And throw in our #1 QB, McCaffrey to the pot who left the program...
It sucked. Last year sucked and we are suffering because of it.
Oof. Washington is going to pick us apart.
Washington and their 5'10" QB??
i am not very optimistic about the D. it's the O that better improve leaps and bounds and outscore teams.
I think by the years end the defense will be playing at a high level. The buy in from the players is there again, esp the dline! That is huge
Corner play is much like other positions. It takes thousands of reps on your footwork. If man, your jam, your hand fighting. Your drop turn pivot and go. Your drop back techniques and keys for zone and for man to identify crossing routes. Understanding our alignments shade inside, over or outside to force the rec to your help or to the boundary. Understanding the qb you're against as well. Accurate, strong arm, good accuracy, good deep ball, mid to hone in your techniques for that game as well as rec. Trail, under, over.
Even officials, when the crew is announced and the staff knows they should know how they call penalties and be talking to the players.
What I thought was missing big time the last few years and why db play got worse was a few things but fell off bigtime last year.
1) No interior pressure from the dline hurts as this defense counts on pressure to the qb to force fast throws so the db covers less than 3 or 4 seconds. Half the snaps last year they covered 4 or more seconds.
2) Techniques, coverages, alignments and assignments. Didn't have the skill to go straight up man to man zero coverage as they have ran since Brown got here. We had some dudes but not elite man cover guys. Not to mention there are many ways to beat man and Osu/Psu/Wisconsin and others simply started running what is called man beater routes over and over again.
a) Technique, as above the last few years it got sloppier each season. Don't know if that is talent or just not putting in the work all off season. Could it be coaching when the coaching was fine earlier? IDK. Slooppy footwork, no jam, no shade no mixing coverages or alignment.
b) Alignemnt and technique, it was all man but you mix alignment or shading to help yourself. I never saw this from our corners. You inside shade to a side to your help. If they are running crossing routes you automatically shade inside and force an outside release. Jam, never seen this at all, not even bump and run. Just snap turn run with rec. A good jam takes the rec / qb off their timing and gives the rush a half second or so longer not to mention the lbers/safeties that time to read the play, qb release, te or tackle head pop, rb what ever keys not to mention the qb eyes looking...
c) Coverages and Assignment even in man we rarely put in banjo concepts man in zone, rarely traded coverage with crossing patterns. Assingments, this gave up at least 15 td's to Osu/Psu putting the nickle or safety overtop of an elite rec put in the slot for man coverage! The single worst I refuse to adjust issue Ive had with brown...
All of this happened, we have a new dc, db coach so time to move on.
Of course it is coaching. Wisconsin, Indiana, and Iowa all had much better secondaries with much less talented athletes. Coaching was the main problem - period.
Lets hope that changes.
JMO, covid offseason, many players didn't put the work in they should have and were way behind where they should have been going into fall camp.
In today's football, fall camp isn't the place you work on technique! Your jam, dropstep, turn pivot is one motion that should have been done thousands of times in spring. Your zone drops and reads the same thing for the different techniques.
Where often time coaching is blamed more than not is players not working on their game all off season. Is it up to coaches, heck yeah that's why they get paid or get fired.
End of the day the failure was players and that falls back to recruiting! Higher ranked players aren't always the fastest or most athletic but the hardest working maximizing their potential. We will see if they improve this off season. The DB coach from kentucky is dang good so coaching can't be blamed this year!
Dantonio never had a problem turning 3 stars into NFL draft picks
We’ll be explosive out there, hands down. Every aspect of the team comes together this year.