What does it take to forge a begrudging truce among the (keep RR / Fire RR) factions?
It is looking more and more like the end of this season could end with the fanbase even more divided then it was at RR's hire. Whichever way David Brandon goes, half of us are going to be pissed. My question is this? Does a move like firing the DC (or preferably the whole defensive staff) and bringing in someone well liked forge a slight truce? I am pissed about the way things are going, but am obviously more pissed about the defense than anything. My other issues with RR are easier to look passed when the other option is changing coaches and systems again. The 'RR is not a Michigan Man' people and the 'stay the course' people will probably never be satisfied, but maybe the majority of us can at least be calmed for one more year with a good DC move. It is hard to argue that the offense won't be as good or better next year. If the defense can just become respectable we might be able to start building some positive momentum.
November 2nd, 2010 at 9:33 AM ^
I think the two factions have never been closer. even the most ardent RR supporters realize year 3 the defensive disaster of historical proportions although not completely his fault is at least 75% his making. I also I think that the most anti-RR fan sees that he has quickly built one of the best Michigan offenses in the last 30 years. Both sides are tired of the losing to mediocre teams so is Brandon. I guess the split becomes not between RR supporters and non-supporters but between the small minority of fans that will work against Rodriguez and the Michigan program because of their dislike of the coach. Those that boo at home games, start obnoxious chants, call sports talk radio. I would like to see RR get a chance to coach all those kids coming back next year but if DB wants to cut his losses and grab Harbaugh I'd be fine with that too even if they went out and hired Mike DeBord I'd still show up to every game and cheer, I might write a letter to Brandon, I might withhold University Donations but I would never publicly denounce the coach it serves no purpose and Brandon won't make a decision based on that crap.
November 2nd, 2010 at 11:01 AM ^
I consider myself more or less a pro-RR fan, but I'm still struggling with the idea that this offense is Cthulhu risen from the deep and unleashed upon helpless Big Ten defenses. I posted a diary explaining why I've been disappointed with the offense in Big Ten play, but to take a different approach, I'll examine the "one of the best Michigan offenses in the last 30 years" statement.
Currently, the 2010 offense is #19 in the nation in scoring offense, averaging 35.38 PPG. That average was 41.4 after the Indiana game and has dropped steadily since then. Without trying to do any detailed analysis, my gut tells me it's probably going to keep dropping. Let's assume it remains where it is, though.
Just in the previous 10 seasons, Michigan has fielded two offenses which finished the season ranked higher than #19 in scoring offense. The 2003 offense finished the season ranked #12 averaging 35.38, and the 2000 offense finished the season ranked #17 and averaging 33.91 PPG. It is, IMHO, noteworthy that neither of those teams had a snackycake FCS opponent to help pad the stats.
The 2003 team actually score MORE in Big Ten conference play than OOC -- they averaged 35.75 PPG in conference play. The 200 team also score MORE in conference play than OOC -- they averaged 34.125 PPG in Big Ten play. Contrast that with this year's team which scores less in Big Ten play, averaging 29.5 PPG versus the 41.3 PPG they put up in non-conference play.
The 2004 offense, which only scored 30.83 PPG and finished 24th nationally, also scored more PPG in Big Ten play than this year's offense has so far. The 2004 team averaged 30.75 PPG in conference play.
So, all that said, I like the offense. I love D Rob as much as the next guy. I just don't believe that this offense, right now, is one of the best offenses we've ever seen at Michigan. It started great. It has struggled against legitimate Big Ten defenses. Most of the points it has scored in the last three games have been when the game was more or less out of reach. I believe D Rob is special and that this offense can be even better next year, but right now, I think it's a real stretch to call this team one of the best in 30 years, particularly since I think their output and ranking are going to continue to drop. I hope they light up the scoreboard in the next four games and make me eat my words.
November 2nd, 2010 at 1:30 PM ^
Don't have the time to look to deep but I am guessing if you took into consideration field position and # of possesions, those offenses wouldn't stack up as well.
November 2nd, 2010 at 2:13 PM ^
Field position could definitely be a contributing factor. I'm less sure about # of possessions since I don't really see why that would be significantly different. I think the raw data to examine the field position issue might be available, although I don't know I'll have the time personally to investigate.
To look at things more qualitatively, I guess I'd simply say that as amazed as I am by Denard Robinson, if I had to pick a UM offense from the last 10 years to win a game to save the human race, I'd take one that includes some combination of Henne/Braylon/Manningham/Breaston/Hart/Long before I'd take this one. I'd probably also take a Henson/Terrell/Walker/Thomas offense before I'd take this one..
I'll point out one last time that I think this offense is pretty good and can certainly be spectacular in the next two years, perhaps better than any Michigan offense I've seen. My point is simply that I don't think it's spectacular right now.
November 2nd, 2010 at 10:08 AM ^
For the "anti-RR" crowd, the impovements on offense from last year to this year are both visable and measureable. Yes, the defense has taken a step back, but didn't we expect that, especially after the Woolfolk injury? The unit is young and inexperienced. That excuse is wearing thin but there is reason for hope in the future. Woolfolk should return. We only lose Mouton, Ezeh, and Rogers.
For the supporters, we must see improvement in 2011, and it needs to be significant. Youth and inexperience will no longer be an excuse, especially if we are getting torched by middling FCS programs and walk-on QBs. The talent level is no worse off than the Big Ten bottom feeders. If there aren't improvements, it'll be time to jump the fence.
November 2nd, 2010 at 9:36 AM ^
Dave Brandon announces otherwise. I will support the team and the program either way. I have lost some faith that this will ultimately succed here. I can't put my finger on exactly why, but I have my doubts.
The defense is an utter failure and unless they go 4-0 and win a bowl game convincingly while holding opponents under 21 ppg and less than 350 ypg, a change at DC is paramount. If 5-7 is the final result, then they all have to go.
10 games to win one and failing to do so, is an Epic Fail and a new direction should be sought. Will this create upheaval and players tranferring a possible backsliding...yes. That is why I pray we don't get there. Win the next two and be competitive in the final two, replace the DC and let the new run HIS defense and get this ship righted.
If, at the end of the season there is complete change. The next one better have Big Ten experience and understand completely and down to their soul what being the coach at Michigan means.
November 2nd, 2010 at 9:41 AM ^
Sorry I am just not ready to fire RR yet. Someone relay this to Brandon. I just can't stomach another rebuilding process not when we are so close to being where we all want to be. I am not ready to bring in Harbaugh and tell Denard to beat it. This team is comprised of some great athletes who also happen to be of great character. They are not ready to give up on this season, not by a long shot.
That being said I completely understand the frustration of the fire RR camp and don't begrudge them for it. We all root for the same team on Saturday and I am willing to bet that most if not all of them would like to see us win 3 out of the next 4. My only advice is support the team for the remainder of the season and let the coaching decisions take there course. I will support what ever decision is made despite wanting RR to get another year. So for now he is the coach so you might as well grin and bear it.
November 2nd, 2010 at 9:45 AM ^
if i had photoshop access/skill, i'd make a rally to restore sanity and/or fear poster w/ two RR faces, only smiley one yelling. that would bridge the divide.
November 2nd, 2010 at 9:46 AM ^
If looking at all of the comments to this thread, I notice that many people talk about either supporting RR or being anti-RR and wanting him gone. I don't think that the two sides are mutually exclusive.
I support RR. I like him and I think that he is a good offensive football coach. I genuinely pull for the guy, want him to succeed here and if he goes elsewhere, I will genuinely pull for whomever hs is coaching (unless they are either a rival or playing us). At the same time, I do not believe that he should be back next year. I feel that the team is not heading in the right direction, he is too polarizing within the fanbase (for right or wrong), he has shown some deficiencies on defensive hiring and recruiting, and he seems unable to pull his team out of a slide.
So, while I support RR, I also do not think that he should be back. So not sure why the two sides can't co-exist by jointly rooting for and supporting RR while he is here and respecting each other's view on whether he should be back.
November 2nd, 2010 at 10:25 AM ^
I don't think that firing a scapegoat in Robinson will improve the situation. That won't erase the record. That won't erase the NCAA violations. That won't create NFL Wolverines to watch on Sunday. That won't improve the special teams. That won't alter the recruiting. That will only create another year of "how many wins for RR to keep his job".
Any truce lies with the RR apologists. Some have just been loyal (and there's no problem in that). Others, perhaps overcompensating, launched endless vicious attacks at anyone who would dare speak a single negative word about RR. Facts didn't matter. Any critique meant the writer was "not a fan", "not all in", "a douchebag", "a troll". These folks need to decide if they're "all in" for RR or "all in" for Michigan.
November 2nd, 2010 at 11:30 AM ^
Your rhetoric is just as bad and overcompensating.
'Any truce lies with the RR apologists'
Good grief, you are taking things way too fucking seriously and your rhetoric over the last year or so has been every bit as one sided and closed minded.
November 2nd, 2010 at 1:20 PM ^
You're totally right. When I say terrible things like (as recently as last week) that we should let the season play out before making a final decision...ugh...just terrible words. How dare I?
Look, I've been blasted from the pro-RR side for pointing out problems with the team...all of which have proven correct. We all love the program but the anger (and refusal to look at reality) from the RR-is-magic crowd is not equaled on the other side.
I can't think of anything more open-minded then saying, as I have repeatedly, that I thought RR should have been fired after last season but that I'd love to be wrong and remain hopeful he'll turn it around this year. I just don't think he gets another chance if he doesn't pull it out this season.
November 2nd, 2010 at 2:10 PM ^
That's some Holy Rhetoric you have there about where the truce lies.
You're blaming fans as much as the pro-RR camp does. It's just lame, man. I dont care if you agree with me on the letting the season play out front. The truce rhetoric in your post has got to go. That's what offended me, it sounds ripped right from these stupid political sound bites that are swamping us these days.
November 2nd, 2010 at 2:51 PM ^
First of all, I cut plea deal for murderers. Second, I let illegal immigrants skin suburban children. Third, I outsourced jobs to China. Finally, I like to fish, hunt, shoot guns and love me some 'merica!.
The point of my "holy rhetoric" is that those questioning RR have been blasted from the pro-RR crowd since I first started reading this blog...until, roughly, this last Sunday. The opposite just wasn't the case. Asking the "unsure" crowd to lay off the pro-RR crowd would be like Dick Cheney asking the old rich guy he shot to apologize to him.
November 2nd, 2010 at 3:18 PM ^
Did you cut school lunch funds? I only vote for folks who do that.
Point taken. Look, I defend vigorously our players from needless unacceptable, playa hater type rhetoric on this site. I am Pro-RR, but I also called him Mike Davis (the old IU hoops coach) in a diary almost one year ago and have been making quips at his expense in several posts at the JCB all season long. The shit just writes itself. I will always question what any head coach we have is doing all the time, but I push back against the unacceptable types whose life appear wrecked because their favorite team doesnt allow them to brag. Personally, I think he can get it done here, but nobody gets a fourth year if you cant get to a bowl in three years. We knew that going in and in a way this has been an easier season than the last two because its either the end of the road or a legit corner turning. I dont think the fans are as divided as the OP wants to make it out, and whether its your truce rhetoric or whatever the hell it is that bouje is spewing, this whole place needs to calm down.
I was a Lloyd apologist. Now I am a Rich apologist. Next year when the D still blows, I will be a Harbaugh apologist. Thats how I roll. The sign in my yard says Go Blue, not go coach.
November 2nd, 2010 at 3:31 PM ^
The sign in my yard says Go Blue, not go coach.
That's my entire point and what I've been screaming since I first posted here...and I didn't cut funding for school lunches but I did trade in the vegetables for ketchup.
November 2nd, 2010 at 1:12 PM ^
When did supporting Rich mean I was not All in for Michigan. Christ we need to retire phrase "All in." Who died and made you the judge of the quality of one's fandom.
November 2nd, 2010 at 4:32 PM ^
Who said I was referring to you? A guilty conscious needs no accuser.
That being said, I think it'd be great to see "all in" retired. I completely agree. It's become a divisive phrase that does no good.
November 2nd, 2010 at 1:24 PM ^
Michigan fandom is not like being a citizen of Iran or Zimbabwe. We have the right to disagree with the direction of the program. I support Michigan football and everything it stands for, even though I may be a detractor of Rich Rodriguez's methods.
With that said, we are stuck with RR for the foreseeable future. Brandon is stuck with the $4M buyout ($2.5M in January 2011!) in a horrible economic climate, and the cost of hiring a brand new coaching staff can be considerable. At this point, we have no choice but to support our program and the kids, and hope that we catch lightning in a bottle during the next 4 games.
November 2nd, 2010 at 1:28 PM ^
I can assure you that the cost of the buyout is not a problem. There are plenty of donors willing to write a check to make that happen. The bigger financial gamble may be keeping RR around if he doesn't get things turned around this year. If we bring back a coach who's turned in only mediocre results (or worse), we're likely to see a lot of unsold tickets and suites, and fewer donations next year.
November 2nd, 2010 at 1:32 PM ^
I'll tell you one thing, if DB decides he wants to split from RR, and RR tries to stick us with the buyout, after we paid half of his WVU buyout, he would be lacking any discernible integrity. If this season continues its spiral, both parties should be able to walk away in a "no fault" divorce.
November 2nd, 2010 at 1:48 PM ^
For some reason, I have a feeling that RR is exactly the kind of person who would stick us with the buyout after we paid half (if not more) of his WVU severance. I hope I am wrong, but, may be because how RR has been portrayed in the (Free) press, he is who he is.
November 2nd, 2010 at 5:03 PM ^
FWIW, RichRod and Beilein paid exactly the same amount in absolute terms, 1.5 million. RichRod's buyout was bigger, so he paid less in relative terms.
November 2nd, 2010 at 1:34 PM ^
I agree with your point about dissent being our right as fans, but the rift between fans has been exacerbated by the RR-defenders constantly saying that anyone who criticizes RR is "not a real fan" or "not all in". It's more than ironic for a RichRod defender (as above) to complain that someone is questioning his fandom. Maybe you just posted in the wrong place?
As for the buyout...there will be a bit of a legal battle as we can escape our contractual responsibilities once the NCAA hands down its final sanctions. If not, we certainly have alums with enough money to buy RR a ticket out of town if need be.
November 2nd, 2010 at 1:53 PM ^
I replied to the wrong thread. Thank you for pointing out the irony!
As an alum who has donated consistently over the years, I would like to see my donations be used toward new facilities, equipment, or scholarships. Using my donation to ditch a failed hire would be difficult to accept emotionally.
November 2nd, 2010 at 1:58 PM ^
I don't think the AD would ever ask donors to come up with buyout money. What usually happens is that a few super-rich types call him and say, "We'll take care of it."
November 2nd, 2010 at 2:14 PM ^
Over/Under on blank checks he's already received from said donor class
I say 2.5 and they're all sitting in DB's break in cae of emergency drawer.
November 2nd, 2010 at 2:47 PM ^
Do suitcases full of unmarked nonconsecutive bills count as "checks"?
November 2nd, 2010 at 3:02 PM ^
Yes, they do. For purposes of the bet on the total, one suitcase equals one check.
Brandon probably is using a pair of them as bookends until he really needs them
November 2nd, 2010 at 10:38 AM ^
Win some games and show that the team is making progress. The problem isn't that the fans are "entitled," but that the team simply has done terribly. Winning against Illinois is a start. Incredibly, we've lost five consecutive home conference games. That's not a way to win over the fans.
November 2nd, 2010 at 11:30 AM ^
Winning heals all wounds. But if you cut my arm, I have the write to say ouch.
November 2nd, 2010 at 4:05 PM ^
I here that.
November 2nd, 2010 at 12:26 PM ^
...my head has never been clearer now that the "Keep RR" portion of my subconscious (the ego) is no longer fighting with the "Fire RR" factions (the id).
November 2nd, 2010 at 1:11 PM ^
RR has not treated this football program with the respect it deserves. He has never taken responsibility for the failures only for the victories. He has brought us piped in music, great videos and returning players for recognition but not what the football program deserves which is respect amongst its peers. It has lost all credibility under his leadership.
I believe he has to go because he will never grasp the difference between Michigan and any other football program. He doesn't think of us as any different from West Virginia. We are just a team to him which is obvious in his press conferences where he tells us to look at the silver lining, etc...
Sorry, but a change in the D Coordinator and even in the scheme will not suffice and he has to leave.
November 2nd, 2010 at 1:16 PM ^
What ever Brandon decides, I'm 100 percent behind him. I will be rooting hard for the team through the remainder of the season.
RR needed to win against one quality opponent. This year I thought it would be MSU at home. during the MSU game our offense probably had it's worse performance in terms of turnovers and other penalties. The defense played better than it is currently playing. I really don't see us beating WI or OSU. I hope we can out score IL and take out Purdue on the road. Then may be RR will be spared?
I was a big RR supporter up until the blow out loss at home against MSU. Now I'm torn between giving RR two more season or just pressing the restart button. I can see the positive and negatives in both paths. Our defense will not improve quick enough next season for more than 8 wins. So if RR only has 7 or 8 wins next season are we going to dump him? I'd rather just get it over with now. If we were more patient with our program I would give him through 2012. 2012 is when the defense will have numerous upperclassmen starters and will at least perform as an average b10 defense and along with our high power offense we should have 9 or more wins.
The coaching mess on the defensive side is disturbing. It makes me wonder if RR is a complete coach and will changing DC once again delay development of our younger players? Recruiting could really suffer, especially on the defensive side. If you think RR is on the hot seat this season wait until next season. Especially if fans have lofty goals for this team. The top recruits may not want to play here with so much uncertainty!
I'm beginning to lean towards Jim Harbaugh, that is if he would coach here? Though, he may have NFL coaching goals.
November 2nd, 2010 at 1:28 PM ^
It would probably take winning out, or at least 3 wins including OSU, a bowl win, and contention for a Big ten championship next year.
I'll go ahead and predict that if we beat Illinois, we'll win 3 more games, including either Wisconsin or Ohio State.
November 2nd, 2010 at 1:35 PM ^
The defense will improve but will not be good enough next season to compete for the b10 western division. I see road losses to MSU and IA. NE or OSU will beat us at home. I would hope we win one of these big home games, especially against OSU. It's time to end this fucking losing streak against them!!!!!
November 2nd, 2010 at 1:41 PM ^
The prophet Bret Michaels said it best:
Give me something to believe in.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe71zCA5xFQ
(Embedding disabled on the video, unfortunately)
Give me something, anything, please God something, Rich. I just need something to hang my hat on when defending you.
At this point, 5-7 = insta-fired. 6-6 or 7-5 = You better fire the entire defensive staff. 8-4 or 9-3 = Just fire Grob & Gibson, perhaps Braithwaite.
November 2nd, 2010 at 1:46 PM ^
Also, if Rich does give me Something to Believe In, then I will give him a little patience:
And yes, using 80s hair band lyrics is an excellent way to declare a point of view.
November 2nd, 2010 at 1:48 PM ^
Those contingent requirements are actually not bad, but I would shift everything starting with 6-6 one category down: 6-6 goes into the insta-fired category (only a 1 win improvement in a year? seriously? that bodes quite ill for the future of the program), 7-5 and 8-4 = fire whole defensive staff category, and so on.
November 2nd, 2010 at 3:50 PM ^
This is supposed to be a free speech kind of forum, and as such we should not expect a truce to happen nor do we need one. People come here to passionately discuss Michigan football, and we have to expect a wide range of opinions and thoughts. What we should insist on is that you make your case for whatever you think our AD or whomever should do clear, concise, and logically argued and reasonably presented.
So, make your case, let others read it and decide whether they agree with you or not, and move on. Reality is that our AD and our University President get to make the decision, and all we get to do is argue about whether they did or will do the right thing.