Touch the Banner re: Concussions

Submitted by IncrediblySTIFF on

Just wanted to share another opinion on the Shane Morris/Brady Hoke/Dave Brandon thing.  This, from Magnus, someone who is at least moderately respected around here.  To shorten his view:

Brandon handled this in the most idiotic way possible

Hoke and the medical staff (along with all other teams) need to have a way to be sure to prevent this

There is no good argument for keeping Hoke, based off his record and the struggles of the team over the past 18 games

The criticism Hoke is taking for how much he is concerned with player safety is unwarranted.

These are not the same as my opinions, but they are the opinions of someone who is --at the very least-- somewhat respected.

 

LINK

westwardwolverine

September 30th, 2014 at 9:48 AM ^

Magnus deserves 0 respect after telling everyone - repeatedly - that Shane Morris didn't really get hit in the head, but took a shot more to the shoulder/chest region. On top of that he tried to argue that it was just as likely that said shot to the "shoulder/chest" had nothing to do with Morris looking like he was about to pass out. Instead, it was his ankle!

Dude coaches kids. If I had a son, I'd never let him near someone that dense in my life. 

He should probably never post here again as far as I'm concerned. 

Fuzzy Dunlop

September 30th, 2014 at 9:54 AM ^

You're like a dog with a fucking bone on this.  Let it go.

Obviously Magnus was wrong about where Shane got it.  For you to extrapolate from that that he is a terrible person who doesn't give a shit about kids' safety makes you look like the asshole, not him.

Magnus has posted here long enough that we know he's a decent guy, even if he made a mistake here.    

Space Coyote

September 30th, 2014 at 10:21 AM ^

[Deleted - If Magnus wants to tell his story he can, but to insinuate he doesn't care about his players is far from the truth and I know that for a fact, not based on assumptions I've made from this board. I've never met him or had a personal conversation with him that I know of, but I do know for a fact that he more than "doesn't give a shit".]

westwardwolverine

September 30th, 2014 at 10:25 AM ^

Hey, maybe he does. Hoke does too. So in that case, he's a lot like Hoke: Incompetent to the point where he can't see something that's staring him in the face and spends half his day either lying or being clueless when everyone else around him knows exactly what's going on. 

Either way, I wouldn't want my kid around someone who sees someone take a cheap shot to the head and concurs that its actually his shoulder pad that took the brunt of the blow. 

All I'm pointing out is that given his stance yesterday, going to Magnus on this is pretty much Brandon Lite. 

Space Coyote

September 30th, 2014 at 10:33 AM ^

But I think he chooses to keep his internet and real life separate, so he probably won't. But I don't think you'd say that if you knew his story. I think you're taking too much into how he viewed this event. So be it I guess,  that's the internet and the price of this play not being on a personal level.

Space Coyote

September 30th, 2014 at 10:42 AM ^

So what the hell are you talking about? You don't know. You're just on a high because Brady Hoke is frying and you feel you have the upper hand on some posters so you are using this situation for some kind of self-esteem boost. That's great.

It's one thing to be critical of what a man says on a message board. A bunch of people get pissy about that sort of thing, that's fine, it's one of the prices for keeping this anonymous. But you attack character where you have no clue what you're talking about. You've done it time and again whenever the opportunity has cropped up for you to twist your way into an argument about it. Top notch, keep it up. Or maybe try to make the distinction between message board stubbornness (a price of being anonymous) and character. 

westwardwolverine

September 30th, 2014 at 10:45 AM ^

Okay, I was wrong. Because SpaceCoyote can never shut up I have to respond to his nonsense:

How is what someone says on a message board not an expression of how that person actually feels in real life? How are his thoughts and opinions not a part of who he is? 

If Magnus and I were sitting down together sharing a beer watching Shane Morris get clobbered over and over again and he was insisting that "No, no Shane Morris is not getting hit in the head, its the shoulder pad. No, he's not wobbling looking like he's about to pass out because of the shot to the head - I mean chest - he just took, its his ankle", I would feel the exact same way I feel about him now and it would tell me something about him: That he's either incompetent ( a la Hoke during his press conferences)/dense or - lets be dramatic - something more sinister going on, in that he doesn't really care about the health of a player. And that in turn would make me question his ability to actually coach kids. 

 

ST3

September 30th, 2014 at 11:33 AM ^

Morris's demeanor on the sideline afterward appeared to be that of a coherent young man who needed an ice bath, a massage, and some pictures to make him feel better.

To suggest a kid in that situation needs to look at some boobies to make him feel better is ridiculous. I wouldn't want you coaching my son because of the way you objectify women, but that's just me.

Magnus

September 30th, 2014 at 12:07 PM ^

Hah. First of all, it was a joke. Second, if you think my "objectification of women" is bad, you should get to know some coaches sometime. I spend at least six days a week with them. I knew/know coaches who cheat on their wives, drink and drive, do illicit drugs, hit their players, verbally abuse their players, etc. You're going to have a very small pool of coaches to choose from if you want perfect angels in every aspect of their lives.

westwardwolverine

September 30th, 2014 at 10:38 AM ^

This is my last post on the matter, because in a sense you're right (would a dog really fuck a bone though?):

Its not just that Magnus was wrong. Its that he insisted, over and over, that a QB taking a head shot who plays for the team he supposedly supports, was not what it was. That's insane. Why would you downplay something so obvious? What is the purpose of that? 

You're probably right: Like most people, Magnus is probably a pretty good guy. However, I seriously question the ability of someone to coach football and take care of kids after they come to the conclusion that Morris mainly got hit in the chest/shoulder pad. That screams of - at the very least - cluelessness and a lack of awareness. If that doesn't bother you, fine. It bothers me. 

 

Magnus

September 30th, 2014 at 10:47 AM ^

Just like many things, westwardwolverine is making things up. I have never, ever, ever said that Shane Morris did not get hit in the head. What I said was that he got hit in the lower part of the facemask, but that the majority of the blow was to the upper chest/shoulder area. The freeze frame posted in this thread supports that.

Again, I have NEVER said that he didn't take a hit to the head/helmet.

westwardwolverine

September 30th, 2014 at 10:56 AM ^

Actually it doesn't because you don't understand what a point of contact is: Cockran is coming at Morris with the top of his helmet. The center left of the top of the helmet connects with Morris' chin. This would mean that the brunt of the blow (and most of the actual helmet) hits Shane in the chin/neck. Because he hits him with the center/left, his helmet then goes off to the right and doesn't even secondarily end up in his chest. 

Again, you cannot even admit the truth when you're wrong and use a freeze frame that proves you wrong as evidence that you're somehow right. 

Like I said: Incompetent, dense or something else. 

And I'm only exaggerating your claims. You trying to play this off as a chest shot that sort of hit the helmet isn't much different than saying its not a head shot. 

HANCOCK

September 30th, 2014 at 12:59 PM ^

i agree with magnus that the hit everyone is focusing on was a little overblown. the minnesota defender didnt really hit him in the head. morris was probably feeling concussed from the way his head slammed on the ground as he fell to the ground. the actual hit was more of a glancing blow to the head and mostly a hit to the shoulder/chest area. i didnt see magnus's original post, but i dont think he is the bad guy you are making him out to be. it seems more like he has an opinion that you dont agree with and you dont like it. 

 

as far as morris, i think he was clearly showing body language of a player who wanted the coach to step-in and pull him from the game. you can see this during the drive leading up to the last big hit on him. he is limping and making facial expressions that would indicate he is in pain. i dont want this to be taken the wrong way, but due to the lack of consistency in his limp/facial expression of pain i actually think he was doing a bit of acting to try and show the coaches that he was in pain. again, dont take this the wrong way, he is obviously hurt, but im just saying he looks like he is making an effort to look like he is hurt, as if he is trying to show the coaches he was in pain. for anyone who watches baseball, i thought he looked like a pitcher who wanted his manager to take him off the mound, but his pride wouldnt allow him to say anything. i imagine he didnt want to take himself from the game, but didnt want to be out there anymore either. its a strange position be in and i dont know how to explain it any better than that, but yeah...hoke should be able to recognize that, but i wouldnt say it was a moral issue with hoke, more of "bad coaching" issue. i do think that morris needs to know that he can come out at any time, and the fact that he wouldnt come out can partially be blamed on the environment the coaches have established.

Mocha Cub

September 30th, 2014 at 1:16 PM ^

I thought you had posted your last thought on this subject though? Like seriously, you've said more than enough...it's starting to look like you posted your opinion once and Magnus proved you to be wrong and now you have a personal vendetta

westwardwolverine

October 1st, 2014 at 9:04 AM ^

At what point did he prove me to be wrong? Just curious. 

Or are you another person whose totally blind as to a kid getting drilled in the chin (and pretty much only the chin) with a helmet? 

Here I'll explain it to you: Cockran's helmet is moving upwards when the left side of it hits Shane Morris square on the chin as Morris is coming down and Cockran is moving up. This is why Shane's head jerks back at an angle and Cockran's head goes off to the other side. The only part of Cockran's helmet that makes this a "chest" hit - as Magnus is suggesting that it mostly was - is his facemask possibly raking across it as all the force of the blow hits him in the head. 

So I'm confused as to how Magnus proved me wrong. If anything, its getting increasingly pathetic that so many people want to downplay a cheap shot on the Michigan QB's head. 

Maximinus Thrax

September 30th, 2014 at 10:10 AM ^

This is completely overboard.  Magnus is one of the most levelheaded and logical posters here, and his blog is a great refuge for those time when the inmates run the asylum here.  While he got this wrong, to say that he deserves 0 respect is absurd, much like your avatar.

gwkrlghl

September 30th, 2014 at 10:20 AM ^

first contact definitely looks like it was to the chest, but Shane also took a good percent of it to the chin. I think the Minnesota player (name escapes me) was definitely going for a highlight reel hit, but he wasn't going for straight helmet-to-helmet contact.

westwardwolverine

September 30th, 2014 at 10:30 AM ^

Shane Morris' chin is jutted out beyond his chest and takes the center left of the helmet square. Its clear as day. The vast majority of the contact with the helmet occurs in the neck/chin region. 

MEZman

September 30th, 2014 at 9:51 AM ^

As I posted in the comment section of TTB:

 

Well I thought the concussion might have come from when the back of his head slammed into the ground after the hit. So just because it didn't happen on the hit itself doesn't mean it didn't happen at all... at this point we'll never know.



I think the main issue is that it doesn't looks like the concussion protocol was used at all. My wife who is an MD (though not a Neurologist) and who watched the whole sequence looked at me and said "they're not going to do the concussion protocol on him??" Then he went back in the game after Gardner lost his helmet she again looked at me and said "what the hell are they doing?"



This is where the anger stems from in this situation. The whole does he have a concussion or not doesn't matter opinion is valid because there's no way they could have known he didn't without doing the protocol. So for all intents and purposes Brady Hoke was willing to send someone back out in the game with a concussion because he couldn't have known otherwise... which is where the disgust comes from I think.

Lucky Socks

September 30th, 2014 at 9:54 AM ^

I get that he went back into the game.  But we all saw Bellomy trying to find a helmet that fit for like 25 seconds.  Putting him into the game to hand the ball off was the least upsetting part of the whole thing for me.  But I guess out of context he "went back in the game" and could have gotten decapitated again on a late hit?

MEZman

September 30th, 2014 at 10:06 AM ^

I wouldn't anything past our porous OL.

Edit: Also, the fact that we had two timeouts available (if I remember correctly) and we weren't really bothering to try to win the game at that point doesn't help. They could have put in a Wildcat formation or something as well. I don't really think there is any excusing them putting him back in the game in my opinion.

go16blue

September 30th, 2014 at 9:53 AM ^

I was previously on the "it's not that big a deal, it was only one play" side of things, but if anything the absolute monstrosity that is our AD's handling of this situation has made me even more upset. Lying, miscommunication within the organization, patronizing fans... Brandon needs to be fired within the week.

allintime23

September 30th, 2014 at 10:00 AM ^

Playing the guy that started the game at quarterback after he already can't walk and was just smashed by a helmet to helmet hit is a big deal. The fact that the game was over already (100 yds offense at the time) and we were down three scores is enough reason to remove a guy that can't walk, but to reinsert him after he was basically just knocked out is an even bigger deal. I have small kids, boys. If they are ever treated that way by a coach I'll be down there to talk to him myself.

Yost Ghost

September 30th, 2014 at 10:26 AM ^

Totally agree, as soon as he was limping it was time to put Gardner or Bellomy in. At that point in the game it was clear he wasn't going to lead the team to a comeback.

Everyone on the staff keeps saying they didn't see the hit yet the refs penalized Minnesota for roughing the passer. Shouldn't the penalty alone trigger some kind of scrutiny as to what happened?

Hey Shane where did you get hit? It's nothing. Was it the head area? No ankle. Hey coaches in the press box what did the replay look like? Was it the ankle? Oh he got drilled in the chin/head area? We better take a closer look at this.

How hard is that??

BornInAA

September 30th, 2014 at 9:55 AM ^

the discussion about the concussion and what people in the blog said or didn't say about it has been talked about in a dozen different threads already

now I am getting dizzy and nauseous

allintime23

September 30th, 2014 at 9:55 AM ^

For hoke to sit there and say he didn't see the hit is a straight up lie. It's disrespectful to his program, every single player he has and every alum and fan. The guy can't coach and now he's risking the well being of student athletes. See ya Brady. I won't miss anything about you.

Magnus

September 30th, 2014 at 10:59 AM ^

It's entirely possible that he didn't see the hit. You can't watch all 22 football players on the field at all times, and the ball was away and gone. Cockran was flagged for the late hit, which supports the idea that someone may have moved his eyes away from the QB and followed the flight of the ball. That's why there's a referee stationed in the backfield to watch for things like that.

Erik_in_Dayton

September 30th, 2014 at 9:58 AM ^

I think we have to remember how fast both science and public opinion are moving with regard to concussions. Remember the picture we all loved of Alan Branch walking away from the obviously-concussed Penn State QB? Michigan absolutley messed up badly - you don't get to call yourself the leaders and best and make this mistake - but I'd also bet a lot of money that this could have happened in many places.

swamyblue

September 30th, 2014 at 10:03 AM ^

Nix the unwarranted. He and his staff failed. It's cut, dry, and clearly indefensible. No sugar coating any of this for Mr. Anti-Basketball on grass. None. The good guy routine is old. If he can't field a competitive team on Saturday's relieve him of his duties. What exactly is the hold up? If someone dare says a couple million, or roster chaos, or recruiting, and on and on...BULL!


Sent from MGoBlog HD for iPhone & iPad

mGrowOld

September 30th, 2014 at 10:05 AM ^

Given that it was my comment on the head injury that he initially responded to questioning whether there really WAS a concussion or not and given that he dearly loves to nit-pick and be critical of virtually everything I post I find the irony in Brandon's admission of Shane's injury last night most amusing.

Not that I think it will change anything but maybe, just maybe, he wont' have a knee-jerk reaction to criticize/question every single thing I post going forward.

Nahhhhhh.

Magnus

September 30th, 2014 at 11:01 AM ^

What I asked was "Do you know there was a head injury?"

You didn't. Nobody (fans, anyway) knew until last night. That's not nit-picking. You were making an assumption. It happened to be that you were right, but even Brandon's statement says that it took multiple evaluations to reach that conclusion.