Totally OT: Completely changing one's career path
On November 21st, 2008 I printed out Brian's "The Age of Miracles" post and put it up in my office at work. (http://mgoblog.com/content/age-miracles) When I first read it it really struck a chord with me, and from time to time when things get crazy and nothing makes sense I re-read it and it makes me feel better.
I know this is completely off topic, but you guys have always been helpful and I'm kind of in need of objective advice from people who don't know me personally. I haven't told a lot of my friends about this (or any of my family) because I'm not entirely sure what to do and am terrified that things won't work out. (This is obviously a consequence of the off-season--stupid self-introspection!)
I'm 26 and graduated from Michigan in 2006 with a BA in Poli Sci. I always wanted to ultimately pursue policy, but after an health policy internship in DC decided I wanted to become a physician who was knowledgeable enough to truly shape health policy. I completed the pre-med requirements and after I graduated began working at a health disparities research center in Detroit. I started out as an unpaid intern and have worked my way up to a really well-paying, high-level research position (particularly given my relative (lack of) experience/clinical degree.) About a year ago I was accepted into a Masters in Physiology program with the option to get a PhD. I work for a university and thus am getting free tuition as well.
The original plan was to earn the Masters, get a solid science foundation and apply to med school. To make a long story short, my interest in medicine has always been from an urban/advocacy for the underserved perspective. It's kind of been building for a while, but I realized I really don't like what I'm doing. I don't want to be a physician, I want to affect policy head-on. My commitment is still to the underserved and always will be, but I've decided that I want to go to law school. This is terrifying because I'm 26 and feel like I'm really old (even though everyone tells me I'm not); I always thought I'd have much more accomplished in my life by age 26 than I do.
I registered for an LSAT prep course that begins in June and am taking this semester off from Physiology classes to re-compartmentalize and study for the October LSAT. I still haven't told anyone at work, including the amazing mentors (physicians) I've grown really close to who everyday tell me what an amazing physician I'll be.
There's a better than even chance that because I want to pursue advocacy work, I'll never, ever make close to the money I'm making now and will then also be contending with paying student loans from law school. Money has never, ever been important to me, but I'm kind of all heart and don't really think these kinds of things through as much as I probably should.
I guess ultimately my question is this: have you ever had to reconcile what you really think you would be awesome at and what you really love with a much more stable, more concrete option? I'm an overly-optimistic and hopeful person in general so I'm afraid I'm ignoring logic when I keep telling myself things will work out. Sorry this is so long--I appreciate all of your help in advance.
Oh, and Brian's "The Age of Miracles" post is now in my LSAT prep book. In some weird way it helps me keep perspective and gives me hope in this super scary, uncertain time.
I won't pretend to have any great advice... but holy shit, I must admire your career aspirations. Two years of doing pretty well in college and I'm still clueless as to what I want to do.
Yeah, I'm three years out of college and still no idea what I want to do. Yeah for monthly existential crisises.
As for the OP, if you have passion for it, go for it. Don't worry about the money or the debt, it'll work itself out. Insert cliches about if you love your work you'll never work a day in your life here.
Start going to the University's career center and develop a working relationship with the staff. Get into some internships... This process should be like a part time job.
Start now so that you do not end up with the same admission to MGoBlog as a senior!
"I guess ultimately my question is this: have you ever had to reconcile what you really think you would be awesome at and what you really love with a much more stable, more concrete option?"
I went to law school at 26 as a second career and my interest is in advocacy as well, so I completely understand what you're talking about. My answer to this question is that if you pursue what you're awesome at and that you really love, it'll always be more stable and more concrete. While the other options may seem more stable, you're always going to have uncertainty in the back of your mind which will inhererently create instability. If I were you, the biggest thing I would be focusing on is finding the right law school for where you want to end up (i.e. which school has the best programs for what you want to do), which may not necessarily be the best "overall" law school. If that makes sense.
Not exactly the same but I got a BBA and needed a job in a really down market. I ended up in sales (the last thing I wanted to do). Once in sales it was difficult to get into marketing or anything else that I really wanted to do. While this was a much smaller shift than you are considering I was able to move into a non-sales role over time without a decline in income. It took longer and i had to find a company that had both the role I was coming from and the one I wanted to go into.
Is there a way to take what you are doing to an organization where you can morph into the role you want over time without the sudden change?
my wife is 28 and she has a degree in education, a job in marketing, and in the fall she's quitting to go to the Ford Public Policy school.
also, you have to give what you love a shot. i'm an engineer. i tried to make money by making music. that failed miserably, but at least now i know that i don't really want to be a musician. i still love making music, but my income doesn't depend on it.
finally, changing a career path is not a permanent action. it's not like you're burning all your bridges on the way out. (you're not burning all your bridges on the way out, right?)
You're saying that setting my building on fire when I quit is NOT a good idea?
Just curious, what type of engineering do you do? Are you in the AA area?
you should only set your building on fire if lumberg won't give you your stapler back.
i'm an automotive embedded software engineer. i live in ann arbor, but i work in novi and dearborn.
I'm guessing you work for a company like Delphi or Visteon? I'm asking because I'm looking for engineering work back home (AA/Metro Detroit) and I'm not having much luck. Is the job market still as bleak as could be? Any open positions at your company?
well, yeah, it's a supplier to Ford and GM.
the bleakness of the job market is directly proportional to the type of engineer you are. being that i'm an embedded software guy, it doesn't look too bleak to me. if you're, like, a manufacturing guy... (uncomfortably adjusts collar) eeeeee...
we are actually looking to hire someone who's good with GM embedded software..
Well right now I'm an aircraft structural engineer and do mostly aeroelastic analyses, which isn't exactly applicable to many careers in the AA/Detroit area (that I know of). I was planning on transitioning to the automotive NVH or safety field. Do you know anything about those markets?
Maybe you can take a screenshot of my MGoPoint total and submit it to your boss for me? I love to code...
aeroelastic analysis may come into play in automotive, but since the speeds are so much lower than in aircraft study, it probably would be more functional than structural. e.g. i know ford uses air intake to cool the battery in the fusion hybrid, so airflow would play some role here...
i know nearly nothing about safety, but NVH is an issue for every single part that goes into a vehicle. i mean, every part that is supplied has to go through some order of NVH testing. so, i would think that would be a pretty universal area to get into, and probably give you more job options.
Thanks for the advice. I'm not burning bridges at all, I think that's why I'm afraid to say anything--these people have been nothing but amazing to me. This was my first job out of college and I've done a lot of growing up here. I'm by far the youngest person here and everyone really looks out for me/treats me like their daughter. My boss is a high-level administrator and really, really takes care of his people. He's super loyal, and while research funding is unpredictable, he has said that as long as he's here we will always have a job, too.
I almost feel kind of guilty, because everyone has done so much for me here--taking a chance on a Poli Sci major and turning her into "med school material"--that I feel like I'm letting people down by not wanting to go through with it. (I know I care way too much about what people think of me.) I don't want to disappoint anyone but I don't think I can continue to be dishonest with myself.
The people at your current job will forgive you. Especially if you bake white chocolate macadamia nut cookies for them.
the people you work with should understand that it's nothing personal. that's the reality of the working world. sometimes people decide to do something different than they're whatever they're currently doing. that's life. i don't think you need to be worried about pissing anyone off, unless doing this will go back on some direct agreement you've made.
Then trust that they will be happy with your path.
Thank them for their time and efforts and explain that through their efforts you decided to go this other direction. Tell them you will use the knowledge you learned through them in the future - and how.
Stay in touch with them so they can be there for your successes.
They only want what is best for you. No bridges burned.
-OR-
Ditch them at the last second and never look back. Bridges nuked!
You presented an equation with lots of variables, so I won't try to offer any big-picture career advice. Congratulations on doing the introspection, though. Lots of people would not (for whatever reason) bother.
Comments:
* I agree with several others here that you're definitely not too old. I made a significant career change in my late 20s and another minor adjustment a few years later. Anecdotally, I know someone who just started as an associate with a top-tier Chicago firm at the age of... 43.
* Could you possibly pursue your advocacy goals through the public health route? The SPH at Michigan is excellent and I know several physicians who got an MPH along with an MD there. I'd guess that you could do something similar at Wayne State.
Best wishes!
You can also get a joint public health / public policy masters at Michigan and I am sure plenty of other places. I'm sure you've thought about this, but just in case, give it a careful look-over. For one thing, with research assistantships you can come through many programs debt-free; for another, well, it seems really close to what you are talking about wanting to do.
Please don't do what many of my classmates did... in short, don't ignore your gut and find out going into the 3rd year and after investing over $100k that you don't actually want to be a physician. It will be the longest 7-9 years of your life, and you will never get those years back. I think the physicians you work with will be happiest if you follow your passions, and they most certainly would not want to be party to MGoJen having her spark smothered in medical school. I think you already know what your heart is telling you, now follow it.
As a side note, I have a friend who is pursuing a joint JD-MPH... maybe something you would be interested in (and there are always plenty of scholarships available for public health and social work... you might consider pursuing one of those degrees before enrolling in law-school, as when pursued in conjunction with a professional degree the sources of finance tend to dry up.) And did I mention that you might find solace in a MD-MPH? Tulane allows you to pursue them simultaneously (4-year program.)
Oh, and a side-side-note... I was two months shy of 29 when I began medical school (and it was the most fun year of my life!) You could have a JD or MPH in hand AND THEN go to medical school by then. :^)
I have a B.S. in Finance from a small liberal arts school (Lipscomb University) and have never really had a good career path. Partially, I suspect the lack of prestige of my degree and school plays into it, but I also just don't have my heart in the business world. It is hard to be sucessful in a field to which you aren't 100% committed.
I have a long-standing interest in 3D computer graphics/animation and am considering going back to school to pursue this field but have a couple of potential stumbling blocks. First, I am not artistically inclined and the field has a strong artistic component, at least in the educational portion of one's career (it's pretty specialized in actual practice and many positions don't require much artistic aptitude). The second consideration is the financial one. Going to school is an expensive endeavor when Mom and Dad aren't ponying up the dough and the compensation in the field is merely O.K. and sometimes employment is erratic (contract based).
I think I've finally decided to just "follow my heart" and go back to school for animation as it is the one field where I think I would truly enjoy my job and not spend my day "clockwatching". You only get one life; you might as well try to make it as enjoyable as possible.
I can't recall who made this quote, but it sums things up pretty nicely, "Choose a job that you love and you'll never work a day in your life."
Oh, and one last thing, don't worry about the fact that you're 26 and haven't got you life all planned out. Life is all about change and you shouldn't be surprised to find yourself moving in another direction sometime in the future.
"job that you love". because choosing a job in a field that you love is not necessarily the same thing. sometimes taking something you love and turning it into a job can sap all your enjoyment of that thing. now you resent the job because it causes you to not love this thing you used to love.
for some people, their ideal situation is a 9 to 5 job where they can go home and not think about work. the danger of working in a field where you love what you're doing is that you may never turn off. it's not just a job anymore.
"sometimes taking something you love and turning it into a job can sap all your enjoyment of that thing."
I don't know how relevant this is to the OP's situation, but it's very true. And I'd add some shades of gray and say that even when it doesn't sap all your enjoyment of what you love (which certainly isn't an assured outcome!), it still changes how you view and approach that pursuit. It has to. I took a hobby I love -- photography -- and made it my profession, and I still enjoy it. But when your income relies on it, there's a certain level of stress involved, and it's changed my relationship with that pursuit more than I thought it would. I'm much less inclined to pick up my camera when I'm off the clock (so to speak) because honestly, it's nice to have some time away from my job, and it's hard (sometimes impossible) to stop thinking of it as work.
I think I'm sounding sort of negative, so let me reiterate: I still love photography, and I have no desire to quit it as a job. It's just not the same to me as it was four years ago. And as notetoself indicated, that unavoidable change in relationship is something to consider before turning your love into a job.
yeah, i don't mean to say that you will necessarily lose your love of whatever you make your job, but that there's an inherent risk.
Good luck to you. My husband started into 3-D animation at the start of his career, but got sidelined into the software side of it. Now he's trying to work his way back into the 3-D animation side, actually using the tools he used to produce. As you say, it looks like a lot of contract work.
when I was 27, I left ernst & young, moved back in with my parents and did stand-up for a year...fuck it dude. do want you want to do, it's never too late to do anything you want. I would think at 26, you would not be near the oldest person in your law school class. best of luck and god bless, your motivation is quite admirable.
Definitely wouldn't be. My law school class had several people in their 50s and one of the classes ahead of me had someone in their 70s.
1 - "...but I realized I really don't like what I'm doing."
It doesn't really matter if you like what you are doing. Almost nobody gets that lucky. That is why bars & drinking happen to be so popular.
2 - "I'll never, ever make close to the money I'm making now and will then also be contending with paying student loans from law school. Money has never, ever been important to me."
I'm all for following your dreams if (big if) you can afford it. If you've got the cash on hand for law school then go ahead, why not. On the other hand, law school is expensive and if you need to take out loans to pay for it, then there is a likelihood that after law school you'll need to find a job with a salary to pay for those large loans. Law firms that pay well will probably put you right back to where you are now, i.e., doing something that you don't like doing. I've known quite a few miserable young lawyers.
You may not feel that money is important to you, but that is all the more reason to avoid putting yourself into a financial black hole by taking on a large amount of debt to finance law school.
I wouldn't presume to know the right answer for you. It's your life and this is a complex decision. I think, probably that you should continue to look into law school. Take the lsat. Apply to schools. And hopefully if you are accepted, then I think you should do yourself a huge favor and take a really long hard look at the finances involved. How much is it going to cost? Will you need loans? What are the terms of those loans? And what will your financial picture look like in three years after graduation? Spend some time chewing on that and then make a decision. In the meantime, who knows what will happen, maybe scholarships will be available. Or maybe if you stare down $100,000 worth of education debt you'll decide it just isn't worth it.
Lastly, 26 is not old. It's not that young either, but it certainly isn't old.
There are 40 year olds+ in my current law school class, and that is truly not abnormal. Don't rule law school out because you think you're "too old". Really do your research though, and make sure that law school is really for you -- especially in this time where law school applications are at their highest rates ever by far. Good luck!
My circumstances may be a little different than yours( I have a 3 year old and a wife), but I'm 27 and am quitting my job to go to law school as well. I definitely feel the same way as you. I won't be starting my "real" job until I'm probably around 30! My fears are a) who wants to hire an associate who's 30 or in his 30's and b) my life is going to be an extraordinarily stressful one. I know this is what I want( and wanted to do when I originally started school), but what if it doesn't work out? The truth is-it wont work out if you don't try and it could work out if you do. Also, there probably isn't a better time than this job market to spend the next couple of years in school. Why not study something that will lead you to where you, ultimately, want to go? Just take the jump and do the things necessary to make your "dream job" a reality. That's what I'm trying to do and that, atleast for me, is comforting.
"a) who wants to hire an associate who's 30 or in his 30's"
Plenty of people. Life experience and maturity are huge selling points to prospective employers.
"b) my life is going to be an extraordinarily stressful one."
Do not underestimate this one.
I'm all for persuing you dreams, money be damned; however, when deciding where to go to law school keep COST in mind. I racked up over 6 figures of debt attending a private law school. I could not afford to pay my monthly student loan payments (over $1,200 per month) if I had anything other than a high paying corporate job.
For instance, while it might be awesome to go to a top 10 law school, if that school charges 40K a year and you end up $150K in debt (factoring in living costs for 3 years) and plan to work in a job where the best you can hope for is $40K a year, you'll be putting yourself under a lot of stress come bill time.
If you want to stay in Michigan, a law degree from Wayne State may be able to take you just as far in the policy area as a law degree from Michigan at a fraction of the cost. Granted, if you want to go national at some point the Michigan name will take you much further, but no point in paying for the national name if you don't intend to capitalize on it.
I didn't really concern myself with the costs of law school and the high price of student loans when I chose to go to law school. Everyone says it will pay for itself eventually, maybe by the time I'm 60 that will be true but it isn't fun having a mortgage in the form of student debt.
Be careful with suggesting that a "public" school like Wayne State would be cheaper. Wayne State is still a $20,000+ per year school (plus expenses). Public law schools aren't really particularly cheap unless you go down south. The private school that I went to was actually cheaper than almost all of the "public" law schools since most of the public law schools in the north are actually (somehow) considered private schools (I have no idea how or why). Michigan State and Penn State are a good example of that.
I apologize if my specific example was wrong. My point was: if you can acheive your career goals by attending a cheaper (and maybe less prestigious) law school there is no reason to go to a more expensive school for the name.
I went to, and paid more for, a nationally recognized law school b/c I didn't know where I wanted to end up after graduating. After graduation I ended up staying in the city where the school is located; I could have paid 1/4 of the price and gone to a local law school in the area and gotten the same job without falling into 6 figure debt.
As for cheap southern law schools, when I applied in 2004, University of Miami (THAT MIAMI) was around 30K while FSU was under 10K for Florida residents . . .
Yeah, I knew what you meant. I was just trying to distinguish the fact that if you really want to go to a good and cheap public law school your focus had better be on the southern public schools.
The best career counselers in the sportsblogosphere! Just try to have this discussion on a Buckeye board. "Law Skewl? Y ya wanna b a cop?"
but jailhouse lawyer seems a more likely outcome for those in scarlet and gray.
a couple years ago, i left a job i was good at in a city i liked living in to get my doctorate. in a couple months, i'm moving again, leaving a city i love living in for something unknown. if i could do it all over again, i'm not sure if i would make the same decisions. maybe i would.
the thing is, life is convoluted. it's more complicated that simply following "your heart." people who speak in these sort of ornamental sentimentalities don’t get it. they’ll never get it. humans change. our goals and aspirations aren’t static; who we are right now isn’t who we’ll be in five or ten years.
that said, do what you think you’re passionate about. just realize that it might not actually be the thing that makes you happy in the long run. nothing is guaranteed.
and, also, people who say money doesn’t matter are people who have never really and truly been without it.
anyway, this is all moot because the world is ending in 2012.
Doing what you love is the best career choice and one that you won't regret in the long run.
I have always been a strong advocate of going to the best law school that you can. It opens so many more doors for you. That being said, accredited law schools are very similar in the training they provide. I should know as I transferred from DCL to UM after my first year. The classes are taught the same, the topics are the same. However, in this instance, if you are not shooting for a high-paid job, you may want to focus on those law schools with a more budget oriented outlook, keeping your debt at a minimum. Trust me, I know plenty of people stuck with their jobs because the debt is staggering. If you can live somewhere cheap and pay something cheap, you will end up ahead in the long run.
I read through the first 2/3 of your post and was completely blindsided by the fact that the resolution involved going to law school. I'd think twice (or three times) before going, unless you really think the best way for you to do you want to do is to be a lawyer (this advice isn't as obtuse as it sounds). Also, I wouldn't worry about how old you are. I'm graduating from law school tomorrow and plenty of my friends were 26 or older when they started.
But it's entirely possible that the work you want to do is only tangentially related to the practice of law, and like a lot of people with similar aspirations you're going to take out 150 grand to go to law school only to realize that you like thinking about the law and may even emerge thinking the law is a useful tool for social change, but that you don't actually want to be a lawyer.
Which, I can tell you from the front lines, is not an awesome place to be. So try to think clearly about what you imagine your life to be like when you go into work every day. If you're interested in "policy," going to law school full-time and at full tuition is probably a bad idea. Not to mention that if you're giving up a high paying job to go into debt, even if it turns out you love your job (which is the best case scenario but frequently a mirage), you're going to have 20-30 years of debt repayment to look forward to. I'd be happy to talk to you privately about the balancing act between finding a good school and taking a scholarship and how doing public interest work affects that calculus.
This article below isn't completely appropriate for your situation, but it's worth reading if the only thing you take away from it is that even graduates of top 14 law schools are having a hard time finding work. And it's not just because the economy's shitty. There's a big contraction going on in the legal market at the moment and there are way too many crappy law schools pumping out graduates.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704866204575224350917718446.html
I cosign everything this guy said. I would only go to law school if you have a very concrete plan about how you are going to use your degree to do policy work. It is not as easy as people think to get non-attorney work out of law school.
I graduated from a top 20 law school last year. I went out to dinner twice last month - the first time my busboy was a former classmate, and the second time my waitress was a former classmate. These are licensed attorneys. A law degree is not worth what it once was. I would highly recommend only going to a school that will give you a significant scholarship (paying over 50% of your tuition). Otherwise, you could find yourself in a very crappy position.
I completely agree with this, with one exception. The difference, at least to me, seems to be that at a time like this when the market for legal professionals is so poor, the graduates from the top schools and the graduates who are "big firm material" are the ones suffering the most, whereas the graduate who went to schools that are more focused on the skills of actually being a lawyer are doing much better. The basic reason for that is likely that in rough economic times firms don't want to have to waste time and money training you to do something that you should have learned in law school. In my opinion, right now at least, people are better off considering the schools that training you to be a lawyer rather than the schools that train you to be a theorist in the law. Just my opinion though.
From someone (ALMOST) 2/3 done with law school:
Do not go to law school if you do not want to be a lawyer. It is not fun. It is too hard. My brain hurts (Evidence final earlier today). It's only something to do if you want to be a lawyer AND save the world, not be a lawyer TO save the world.
The market is bad, and graduates at schools that teach more practical skills aren't getting jobs top students are missing out on if those top students want it (and depending on the situation, have geographical connections). I don't want to speak too broadly, but I would suggest that going to a lower ranked school, barring some good geographical opportunity, will make getting a job significantly harder in a climate in which they are already quite scarce. Many of those schools cull 1/3 of their 1L classes every year, and you don't know how you'll do on law finals until you take them. Based on what you said below: do NOT take Detroit over Michigan Law unless they are paying you a TON of money for it. Period.
My buddy is getting his JD-MPH here and seems happy. But he's at a T6 school and will get a job that pays well to deal with his debt. I imagine he'll make policy after that. As long as you a) want to be a lawyer, b) can afford it, and c) understand the risk that you CAN'T afford it, go for it.
I think you took what I said the wrong way. I didn't mean to say go to a lower tier school and focus on lawyering skills. I certainly didn't mean to say to choose Detroit over Michigan. Frankly, I don't know much at all about the program at either school. I was moreso meaning to say that when choosing between similarly situated schools chose the one that provides better skills training over the one that focuses more on theory. The idea being that people who develop their practical skills are more attractive to certain types of firms, which means, on a whole, they are more attractive candidates to hire because they have more practical skills. Stated a different way, don't necessarily look at overall rankings, but rather look at the sub-rankings for skills programs.
I think I missed parts of that, so my fault. I know you didn't advocate Detroit over UofM (!!), that was to something she mentioned below. My issue with the "skills" concept is that law schools generally do a crappy job of that, and even if a lower ranked school did it better, I doubt enough employers have good enough information about it to make a real difference.
But if you're going to a non-T14 school, I'd look at geography first, but yeah, my second focus would be on program rankings, so we're more or less on the same page.
Yeah, I would agree with you that the vast (vast) majority of schools do a terrible job of skills training or in any way preparing their graduates for the actual practice of law. There are a few, however, that are not "top tier" schools do an outstanding job in the skills area and whose name recognition carries very well despite not being a "top tier" school. I can speak from personal experience on that. But yes, in general you are right.
I'm in law school at Michigan (and was in a class with daveheal, actually...hey dave). The debt is huge and you really need to practice at a big firm if you want to pay back the debt in a reasonable amount of time and have a family. If you're planning on staying single for your whole life, I'd say go for it. If not, go to the best school that gives you a full ride.
And, fwiw, the people that I've seen that affect change are the ones who work hard, are great with people, and have impressive networking abilities. Degrees can't change someone who's just not an affector of change, if that makes sense.
law school is like the ultimate fallback. i don't get it. the job market is cluttered and the profession isn't artifically constrained like many areas with resource/funding issues. given our current recession, post-baccalaureate law is going to be the new comparative literature
I recently did something similar. I decided that I really didn't love stripping, and decided to take the plunge into hooking. It's only been a few weeks, but so far so good. (fingers crossed)
You should keep stripping on the side. It's a great way to meet clients.
...and the money will follow. (Eventually.)