Talking Cars Tuesday - Why Do You Drive what you Drive?
Mates,
With no Jeepin' Ben in sight I figured I'd take as shot at a topic. Once in a while, ever see a car from a distance and frequently can guess the demographic driving it or perhaps how that vehicle will be driven? See a Cadillac, expect late 60's driver. See a Subaru with a coffee can for a 'trick' muffler, expect a young 20-something dude to be driving. There are many more predictions that seem to come true as you pass that car/truck.
And for that matter, why do you drive what you do? Is it a work rig? Does is send a certain signal about being sporty (MGrowOld probably takes the cake with his GTO), frugal, a family guy/gal, off-roader?
Two questions for today:
1. What cars do you see tooling down the road and from a distance think, "I bet that driver is a _________"
2. Why did you pick out and drive what you are driving? What was it that lead you to that choice?
XM
The question of which is better environmentally is way more complex than cobalt - bad.
If we focus just on manufacture - almost certainly EVs are worse
If we focus just direct air emissions while driving - EVs are unquestionably better - no NOx, no toxics
If we focus on fuel production: combustion engines have refineries, gas stations and transport of gasoline, EVs have power plants.
If we go further upstream we factor in coal mining and natural gas production for EVs and oil production for combustion engines.
We might also consider the fact that we are likely closer to reducing many of the upstream and downstream emissions from EVs than we are for ic engines. The power sector is quickly moving away from coal and battery technology continues to improve.
On the whole, I think you would be challenged to find any type of analysis that would emphatically reach the same conclusions that you have, but would be very interested in any information that demonstrates your point better than google cobalt mines.
Like, nothing the general public can do will save the environment. This same argument can be made about recycling, veganism, solar panels, etc...
Perhaps people like the idea of not having to stop at the gas station, or do oil changes every 5k, or needing to check all of the fluids that conventional cars use. There's a lot of reasons to buy an electric vehicle that aren't virtue signaling. No one driving a Chevy Bolt is virtue signaling. A Tesla, sure. But, there are lots of people who want electric vehicles for other reasons than saving the environment.
let me try to nuance that a bit in my neanderthal way. an EV in concept is a fine idea and i don't know anyone who opposes it. i am aware they have wicked good acceleration and are of course whisper quiet other than road noise. however, the batteries are an environmental disaster on many levels, the vehicles are very expensive, and they are pretty impractical unless you live in some specific areas and have very specific usage patterns. thus, there is at least some truth that many (not all) buy them to virtue signal but much of the virtue is lost if an overall look is taken.
not to disparage all owners (oldest brother has one - it works great for him) and definitely not to disparage the idea of EV's, but its a legit comment on the topic.
Yep! If you commute down the hall every day, EVs are great. Other times? Maybe not great or even good. Long distance daily commutes and road trips can be a challenge to "run", especially considering today's long charging times plus sparse charging infrastructure. Definitely.
But. Do not discount the amount of pre-tax income a $7500 tax *credit* gets someone in the 37 percent tax bracket. Answer? $20,270.00. So, if you buy two "credit" cars - not Teslas or GM cars - and one of them costs under $40.5K, the cheaper one is 100 percent "tax subsidized". Rich man's game, definitely.
If your commute is around 50 miles round trip daily (which is average), you can easily get that overnight plugged into a standard 110V. If your commute is less than 250 miles round trip, you can easily get that plugged into a level 2 home charger which is just 220V, same as what your dryer, electric range, or AC use.
There's almost no use case that would require charging mid commute, unless you're driving about 300 miles daily. If that is the case then yeah, definitely don't get an EV. We are talking about less than 5% of people with a commute like that though.
"Easily, from a standard outlet"?
Level 1 charging gives you about 3 to 3.5 miles of range per hour. The math of how long you need to be tethered is simple: you need ca. 16 hours to give you 50 miles.
Also, winter driving slows charging rates and reduces your total range by about 20 to (sometimes) 25 percent.
Not sure where you get 3 to 3.5 miles per hour? Many EVs get 5. That means 10 hours to get 50 miles. Even with a 20% hit that is 40 miles. Plenty of people commute less than 40 miles per day. But honestly, if you don’t live somewhere you can install or access a level 2 charger at night, that is certainly going to make an EV less attractive.
I get that number from experience of ownership (Mini, Ford) and the multiple reports of local, fellow owners (Polestar, Fiat, Tesla 3).
5 miles is the theoretical maximum (see clippercreek.com) but you can only draw an 80 percent load (single hot, 12 amps) and most EVs will not draw max Level 1 in order to avoid popping the breaker on what is almost certainly not a dedicated 110V household line. My Mini, on the max speed setting for Level 1 charging almost gains 3.6 miles/hour. At mid speed setting, it's 3.2/hour. And remember that EVs do not charge in a linear fashion. They intentionally slow down their rate of charge the closer they get to 100% regardless of the circuit's available amperage. Last? Charging rates diminish in cold weather.
And my "hit" is only to reference a dimunition of total driving range and is independent of range gained per hour of charging. Sorry, if I confused the issue; I was only offering another dataset.
Regardless, I am an EV fan and owner, with no daily commute. Also have a pair of ICE cars for long road trips and occasional race track fun.
“Level 1 charging stations can often be hardwired into existing infrastructure, reducing the upfront investment while still offering great value to employees and customers. Low current charging can fully recover 20 miles of range in 4 hours, at a cost of under $1.”
your reference - 5 miles per hour.
my experience with our Kona - 5 miles per hour
Google search - lots of references that range from s low of 3 to a high of 6.5.
Chargepoint - 5 miles - https://www.chargepoint.com/files/Quick_Guide_to_Fast_Charging.pdf
Cars.com 3 to 5 - https://www.cars.com/articles/what-is-level-1-2-3-charging-437766/
California Energy Commission - 3.5 to 6.5 - https://calevip.org/electric-vehicle-charging-101
As I said and have experienced, 3 to 3.5 miles per hour, two different cars plus three other known owners, five different vehicles. And hardwiring only bypasses the use of a standard removable plug, does nothing to increase amperage flow in any circuit; hardwiring is typically done in the upper range(s) of Level 2 charging. Kind of a waste time and effort hardwiring Level 1.
Do you gain 5 miles/hour on Level 1, across the full range of battery level, in your Kona? Does it try to pull the full 12 Amps from the 110 circuit? Do you have a single run/dedicated, hardwired Level 1 outlet? Is that how you charge your Kona, Level 1? That means: 50+ hours or 2+ days to "fill" your battery. I admire your patience.
I've charged an EV from a regular 110V/15A for 3 years now. I'll stand by that its very easy to get enough range for the average commuter. I've always done better than 3 miles per hour even in midwest winters. Usually a garage is still significantly warmer than outdoors.
The idea that you need complicated or expensive at home charging equipment just doesnt square with the average use case for most americans, as supported by the numbers, i.e. average commute, average battery size, average charge speed, average temps, etc.
If you have a garage you can put a charger in and a round trip commute of less than 200 miles, todays EVs will work fine for you. If you can install a charger in your garage, you can charge overnight. If it is your only car and you also want to take regular roadtrips over a couple hundred miles, maybe not so much.
There are many people in the category of: multi car families, with garages where one driver primarily uses the second car for trips of 200 miles or less. Just walk, bike or drive through much of suburban America.
the vehicles are very expensive
I realize "very expensive" might mean something different to you than to me, but a '22 Nissan Leaf starts at just over $28K, and a Chevy Bolt starts at a bit over $32K. As new cars go, that's not very expensive.
https://www.cars.com/articles/here-are-the-11-cheapest-electric-vehicles-you-can-buy-439849/
My koala, are you seriously calling out others for virtue signaling while ranting about the evils of electric vehicles when asked "what do YOU drive?".
As another poster mentioned above, do you not see that the advancements in technology to improve battery storage are being financed through today's EV sales, and giving manufacturers confidence to continue investing in them?
No reasonable mind is arguing that today's EVs are the answer. They are hopefully a step in the right direction. I guess time will tell. If you don't have a better idea, maybe don't shit on those who are actually trying to improve the situation and enjoy your spot at the kid's table (with me).
I wish I could go back in time to hear the opining of those opposed to those new fangled combustion engine machines and how inefficient/too fast/dangerous/... they are.
Let's not make perfect the enemy of the good, eh?
EVs = virtue signalling? Maybe for some owners, but surely not for all. Some people are just trying to "do their share", trying to get ahead of the curve in transitioning (slowly and (hopefully)) away from autos that produce noxious gases, exploiting tax credits in order to reduce their "fuel cost/mile". EVs are not yet The Answer, but they have some nice plusses for some.
Human? You seem like you are still in a miserable, "everything sucks, everyone sucks" place emotionally. You clearly haven't yet done something nice for a complete stranger to see the flash of wonder in their eyes yet, did you... C'mon cranky human. You can do it! :-)
1. Subaru - tree hugger, lives on west side of Ann Arbor, and they probably think they capture carbon
1. Corvette - small johnson w/receding hairline
1. Buick - old person
2. Mini Convertible - love a convertible, plenty of pep, and handles well
2. Genesis G80 - does everything a fine German sedan does, but more reliable, a better value, looks fucking stunning inside and outside.
EGJ, very funny today. did not know what a G80 was. is a very nice looking ride.
I drive a few different ones, all of which are bucket list items and have far more horsepower than they should.
As for cars, I see and stereotype the vehicle and the owner. For example, if I see a Jeep with an ORV sticker, I think the driver thinks off-roading is when they have to park in a grass parking lot. Not all Jeeps because some instantly stick out as Jeeps that have been driven.
Former JK owner here... Please.don't say you assume a Jeep has been driven because the owner left mud all over it for two weeks... those owners drive me insane. Any time I wheeled my Jeep, it was clean within hours.. the rest are just parking lot posers or wannabe's. /end rant
Do you know what they say about assume? My car gets mud on it, but it doesn't have an ORV sticker.
1) Subaru Forester: I always assume the driver is some flannel-wearing fake outdoorsy type. Probably sniff their own farts and smell like Patchouli. Likely a dog in the back seat.
2) Subaru Forester because it seemed like a good AWD car within my price range and I like flannel. But I also put a pair of truck nuts on the back hitch because that's how I roll. And my dog only rides shotgun.
I drive an EV Hyundai Kona. It has more pickup than my old Subaru WRX when its in sport mode. My company pays me.62 a mile and I charge at work for free. So I double dip on my car mileage.
To each their own but I want to drive the thing that gets me to retirement the quickest and I get to engage my OCD a bit as well. On sport I can get on it or in eco mode I can drive like a grandpa and get max mileage.
We've been looking at those but they don't sell them in Illinois, where we live. In fact, it's really tough to even test drive an EV here. None of the dealerships have them. We don't want a fancy one like Tesla or the high-end German companies so Hyundai and Kia are of big interest. So is Toyota. Mini supposedly had a plug-in hybrid but we called our local dealership and she said the current iteration didn't work out and they'll be coming out with a new one in 2024-ish.
Look at the Kia EV6? Very nice car. Older son is picking one up this month.
Is that a hatch? We really need a hatchback. If they still made the e-Golf, we'd think seriously about that. The ID4 is interesting but a little bigger than we want. We may look at it anyway. I think they're making an ID3, but I read it's been delayed because of the war in Ukraine.
EV6 is a hatch though if you're looking at the e-Golf, the Hyundai ioniq 5 may be preferred. It's the same EV platform as the EV6 but has the more of a Golf look. The EV6 and ioniq 5 are pretty much equivalent in EV performance to the Model Y (efficiency, range, and charge time) in the small SUV/hatchback space.
I love the looks. The $20k added on to my cars price tag? Not so much. Its a beauty though best thing Hyundai has ever made (visually).
Yep, the dealer "markup" is a miserable way to treat buyers. I've been assured we won't be asked to pay that. Time will tell (soon) ...
I'm in Washington and I couldn't find an ev that I wanted. There's one Bolt euv in the county. Nothing else. Was trying to replace my '07 Avalon as my commuter and searched for weeks for an ev. Just nothing to be had so I bought a hybrid.
Love our Hyuandai Kona EV, but definitely not a great family or roadtrip car. Back seat is cramped for any lengthy drive at 5’10”. As big of a fan as I am, unless you have a second car or they are infrequent enough to rent a car, challenging if 200+ mile road-trips are important.
Ideal as second car for a family with a commuter or lots of local trips or for a one car couple who would consider renting for an occasional road-trip. Having a garage you can put a charger in is also key.
I can answer question 2. I drive a 2018 Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited 4x4. I have had Grand Cherokees for the past 14 years or so. 1) I used to work for Chrysler so I feel a bit of an obligation to them, even though I quit that job in 2001. 2) I've always loved the styling, quality and ride of the Grand Cherokees. It feels solid and well-built to me. The 4x4 is great on snow and ice which does happen a little in Durham, NC but clearly not as frequently as Detroit. I am not an off-road guy so I don't ever push the limits of the vehicle.
We replaced my wife's Kia with a 2017 Jeep Grand Cherokee a couple years ago and it's been great. She swears she'll never get a "Mom Van" and I certainly won't blame her if she chooses to stick with the Jeep (only have a 14-month old little guy so far).
I recently replaced my 2012 Ford Escape with a 2020 Volvo S60. We live in the Dallas area, so no need for handling in the snow (beyond what the Jeep can do), and I wanted a moderately fun, semi-luxury sedan for ~40 mile commutes either to the office or airport. I've been happy with it so far, and super safe for the little guy as well.
That is quite an upgrade from a 2012 Escape to a 2020 Volvo S60!
I also like the Jeep because the V6 gets decent gas mileage - about 20 mpg on average. It seems to be a pretty efficient engine for the get up and go it has. We also tow around our 5 year old daughter in the Jeep. It's a comfortable vehicle for taking long-ish road trips.
I drive a ram 1500 crew cab. I am regularly carrying stuff around that either wouldn’t fit in a car, I wouldn’t want in the back on an SUV (old push mower with an oil leak for example), or is too small to fit in either.
it’s not lifted 6 inches though because my dick is adequate sized unlike Fawkes. That’s what the wife tells me anyways.
I also have a mint 1996 Town Car Cartier edition with 24,000 miles on it as my weekend cruiser in the summer
Omg, please post a pic of the Town Car, I just LOVED those designer editions.
And a picture of the dong -- asking for a... friend
2. 2002 BMW 330xi - I bought it because I wanted a small sport sedan that had AWD (weren't many choices at the time) and I never have really grown tired of it and don't drive that much working at home.
I keep it because it still looks great. I work on it myself and my son just got his driver license last week. So, having old cars is a good thing.
My big car that I rarely drive is a 2004 Infiniti QX56. Bought it when my wife was pregnant and she insisted on the biggest chunk of metal available and I said OK because it qualified for the big tax break at the time.
Been a Buick man for 30+ years...
Century to Le Sabre to Verano and now the Encore Crossover. I would never ever consider buying a non-USA branded car. It is downright un-American :)
Funny how buying local applies to kale and beer but not cars.
1) 4-door Jeep Wranglers. The only thing more idiotic than adding an extra set of doors to a Wrangler is the people who buy them.
2) 2011 Silverado. Got a decent deal on it new, it carries all my bikes and camping gear and I keep it because it still runs perfect and it's been paid off since the day I drove it off the lot.
From a guy who owned a proper jeep in my youth and currently drives a Sierra, I agree on both points
I tend to think that American muscle cars are a bit. . . declasse. I live in Florida, so I assume that it's a teenager or someone from The Villages.
We have a Subaru wagon, which we got in anticipation of camping and touring the country with my daughter as she was coming of age. It has served its purpose, and I am a wierdo fan of station wagons, though I think that the Subaru stereotype is. . . kinda well-earned. When we got the car, I teased all of my liberal friends who were buying electric vehicles that we wanted a car that would be able to drive over the bodies come the Zombie Apocalypse, not wave hello at 20 m.p.h. Still holds.
If you had asked what our next car was going to be, I would have to admit to thinking we might get one of the used Audi wagons; or a Mazda (love their designs); something with a sweet engine. Then we'll be back to just my spouse and myself. When she retires, we plan a trip up the Eastern seaboard, across Canada, down the West Coast, and back through New Mexico and the southwest with lots of stops in pueblo territory. That will be the last hurrah for the wagon, then on to something smaller.
1987 Monte Carlo.
Custom spoiler.
Decent.
1) That person either loves cars or hates them
2) 21 Macan GTS. The perfect blend of sports car and utility. This thing will sing on the open road but also can be quiet and tame when my wife is in the car. I bought this car after years of research and becoming enamored with the "Porsche" brand.
Porsches are fantastic. My dream car is a 911. Never going to happen, though.
Never say never. I walk my dogs with a 72 year-old lady that has a 911 Carrera that she bought because "what the hell."
I believe in you Wendy!
had to look that up. nice looking.
