Public opinion is a funny thing, as it never seems to be consistent or rooted in fact. Everyone thinks OSU is still the cream of the crop, and I can't even speculate as to why.
landing spot. will be interesting to see how he does.
Public opinion is a funny thing, as it never seems to be consistent or rooted in fact. Everyone thinks OSU is still the cream of the crop, and I can't even speculate as to why.
I'm going to speculate that it's because of a few different reasons. First, the talent is still there. They've had a great class last year to follow up years of great classes. Second, I think a lot of people are just writing off last season because of the turmoil that happened, the suspensions, and the sudden coaching change. And third they brought in a coach that has a very solid history.
Add those three things together and it's not that difficult to see why many think OSU are still going to be a powerhouse.
As you say, OSU has a ton of talent and a great coach. They also have a relatively easy schedule this year. I won't be shocked if they win 10 games.
Given your statements, I find this fitting.
True, but USC has always had talent and they are seen as being in a slump. I think a hive mind exists out there where a few well placed stories snowball into public perception. (See Exhibit 1a - Rodriguez)
Somewhere, a few people decided that OSU was not on the ropes. It seems that opinions are taught these days, not formulated. The media doesn't question the original stories and instead just rehashes their details. That's how 90% of college football fans don't know that OSU went 6-7 last year...
"It seems that opinions are taught these days, not formulated"
That's just what the media wants you to think...
They are essentially favored to make it to the MNC game and are pretty well thought of.
I think some of you are really missing the point of the article. He isn't saying that they can't have missteps. He says as much about Michigan, they had a few missteps but they won't fail. They won't be down for long. They will be back.
He is simply stating that any program can hit a rough patch, due to a variety of reasons, and some programs have suffered due to less than what OSU has been hit with. It happens, but they have either come back or are on their way back. These programs, with the amount of money, talent, coaching, history, prestige, etc. won't stay gone forever, and thus, will not fail. A couple seasons may be deemed "failures", but the program itself won't fail. I would put OSU in that category. They have too much in their favor to fail, too good of talent, too good of coaching, too good of a history. Their program will not fail and they should be really good in the next couple seasons.
To be fair, I based my argument on the OP and not the article, which I didn't read. The crux of my argument is that USC was perceived to have been hurt by their scandal more than OSU was perceived to be hurt by tatgate. It seems almost arbitrary as to which events trigger backlash. Things like Auburn and Miami are forgotten about while the Reggie Bush scandal and the Fab Five debacle will always be a black mark.
USC went 10-2 last year.
I'd love it if 10-2 were a DOWN year.
Whoever thinks USC is in a slump is silly. They were 12-1 in 2008, 9-4 in 2009, 8-5 in 2010, and 10-2 in 2011. They're also one of the big favorites to win the championship this season. 2009 and 2010 were still decent seasons but comparing every USC season to the Carroll era is ridiculous. I mean the guy only finished outside the top 4 twice (his first and last seasons) and won every bowl game except two (his first season and the loss to Texas). Not even Nick Saban has a track record like that in terms of that early of success with teams finishing that high.
then how does this Ohio State team go 6-7 this past season? That's the excuse from Buckeye fans I hear a lot: they didn't have the talent last year....then how is it going to magically appear and help the Buckeyes next season?
I honestly haven't heard too many OSU fans use the excuse that they didn't have the talent last year. But just because some of their fans may say that doesn't in-turn mean it's accurate or true.
They go 6-7 because their coach was suddenly fired/resigned, had multiple suspensions, and being more or less forced to start a true freshman QB. Playing uninspired almost lazy football. Not to mention Luke Fickell may not have been the greatest coach in the world.
Take a gander at their roster and their incoming recruits and decide for yourself if you really think that the talent needs to magically appear or not.
1) Ohio is confident.
1A) Gene Smith is a pretentious douche.
2) ESPN has a lot of Ohio readership, writes flattering article implying hope for 2012.
"That's a good way to say it: We're kind of too big to fail," Smith said, "
I don't think he realizes that a business leader only describes his/her company as "too big to fail" as a last-ditch effort when the sh*t is hitting the fan. I don't think Lehman Brothers' motto was "We may be a bunch of idiots, but we're too big to fail!"
He also doesn't seem to realize that the quote usually originates from a political/public policy figure attempting to rationalize their decision to bail a failed company out from bankruptcy, not the CEO's and whatnot from those companies.
On top of that, he doesn't seem to understand that the phrase is generally not liked in American society (for several different reasons, actually).
He doesn't seem to understand a lot of things. I have a suggestion for him: Stop talking to the press.
"Too big to fail" is used to describe a financial institution the government believes it needs to bail out to keep the economy from crashing. (No politics, that's just what the original meaning of the phrase was).
While the meaning Rittenberg is using is different (Ohio failing certainly wouldn't be disastrous for the college football system we are used to, although things would certainly change...he uses it more like "they are so big they will bounce back quickly" than "their demise could cripple college football forever") I think the original meaning sort of actually applies in terms of the actions of the governing body. All the usual caveats here of course, but I think many of us would agree that the NCAA punishment for last year's transgressions was a little bit light. If OSU wasn't "too big to fail" in the Lehman brothers sense, why didn't the NCAA come down harder? If they were a smaller school would the punishment have been harsher? Interesting to think about.
That is precisely the reason why I think the NCAA needs to take a tougher stance on the elite programs. The rationale being that if the NCAA will punish the money makers, the rest have no chance. Part of being elite is that you play within the rules. Cheating is not elite in my books.
Well said. The schadenfreude potention for this is pretty epic.
Is potention German?
Rittenberg said it also:
"It can prove that maybe one brand-name program is too big to fail."
It's the offseason...Also, as much as I hate to use them to make a point, USC's low point was 8-5 in 2010, not 6-7 as OSU was last year. I mention this b/c Rittenberg says that USC, unlike OSU, was "down." Again, though, I say meh.
Ughhh I want them to eat it so hard this year. More than ever before.
You are blinded by your sports affiliation, looking at the article through Maize tinted glasses. I would say that they’ve been remarkably resilient, and I expect them to be very good very fast. He’s right. Other programs have been completely gutted for less than what happened at OSU.
And I think you’re being a tad bit over dramatic with some of your verbiage…
Nothing wrong, even as a Michigan alum and fan, that admitting OSU has been remarkably consistent and resilient given their infractions.
That should only give you more pleasure in beating them.
Everything is relative. What the heck does fail even mean?
Hit the nail on the head. Hoke thinks our team failed last year even though almost all of us thought it was a pretty successful season. A bunch of posters think Ohio failed last year, Rittenberg might think "fail" means to have a program go into the dark ages.
As I said yesterday, the ESPN B1G Blog is LITERALLY (Chris Traeger voice) the worst. Lazy.
I see TBTF as a term describing an unwillingness to allow an organization to reap the consequences of their actions, and to do so not because of their own merits but rather because of the fear that their failure will have negative consequences on other organizations. In that sense, that is probably a good description of the OHIO situation. The NCAA doesn't want to see one of the top programs of the last decade go down in flames. There is too much money to be made in the status quo.
Obviously, Rittenberg means fail as in a poor W/L record over an extended period of time. He's right. It's not going to happen.
As I said above, though, he cites USC has having an extended downturn. That extended downturn involved going 8-5 and 10-2. OSU has some catching up to do if they want to go 18-7 over two years. I'm not saying this to bash OSU. I'm saying this to criticize Rittenberg and, most importantly, to avoid what I'm supposed to be working on.
EDIT: USC went 9-4 in 2009, so their downturn was to go 17-9 over two years. OSU can't catch that this year, as they would have to go 11-2, and they can't play 13 games.
If that's OP's whole point, it's just nitpicking that's not really worthy of a thread.
barely hanging onto a dying branch on the cliff of thread worthiness. certainly the quasi-hysterical tone does not help either.
Folks like a comeback story, let's not get presumptious.
Getting Urb and the early recruiting success does portend success. However, success for OSU is beating Michigan and unfortunetely for them we have very good coaches and are matching them step-for-step on the recruiting trail.
"It's not a program that's been devastated by the challenges we have. When you can attract a good leader like Urban on a platform like The Ohio State University ... we weren't going to spiral."
If I'm not mistaken, I'm pretty sure Urbs hasn't won a game at OSU yet. How does anyone know if what he will bring to the Big Ten and OSU be successful? Not saying he won't be, but there are a lot of unknowns, in my opinion.
I think he will be sucessful ultimately, but as successful as JT? Doubtful.
And the recent slap on the wrist. Unfortunately I would have to agree.
If they would have received a multiple year bowl ban, combined with Hoke's recruiting success. Then there's a chance they could have gone down the tubes. Penalties like that could lead to the wrong coaching hire, which leads to poor recruiting, which equals prolonged mediocrity.
But they were assured a slap on the wrist, they got Urb because of it, recruiting didn't suffer (aside from what Hoke has been able to do) and I just can't see them being down for long.
I'm just glad we have Brady Hoke on the sideline.
"...slap on the wrist"?
Loss of scholarships, bowl ban, show cause for Tressel, failure to promote atmosphere of compliance, probation, termination of the Tressel era...
Slap on the wrist? I think it makes this Board look dumb to post stuff like that.
It's like forcing a horrible driver to give up his Ferrari, but letting him buy a Lamborghini three days afterwards.
What was the NCAA supposed to do? Ban them from hiring a coach with a winning record?
Ultimately, it's not the NCAA that can tank a program. It's up to the school itself. If it makes the right hiring decision, it will survive the probation and move forward.
As my OSU-fan friend said to me, "Michigan didn't have to hire Brian Ellerbe." This hurt to hear, but it's true.
They shouldn't have banned them from hiring a good coach, but they could have given them the kind of penalty (more scholarships taken, longer bowl ban) that would have made coaches and top players shy away from them for a couple of years. They still would have come back eventually, but they would have had to feel some pain for their transgressions.
The issue with the NCAA is like penalties, for like offenses.
The player violations at Ohio State were sort of trivial; jerseys for tattoos, favors around town, walking around money to show up at golf outings, etc. The NCAA investigated more serious wrongdoing (if Pryor's cars count as more serious wrongdoing) and didn't come up with much.
The much more serious wrongdoing was with Tressel's lack of disclosure and gentle stonewalling. And for that, Tressel has been kicked out of Ohio State football for a lifetime.
There were a number of ineligible players used in a bowl game; for that they get a bowl ban. (It could have been two, under the "2x punishment standard", but one is not a "slap on the wrist.") They lost six scholarships; that number could have been higher, but six is not a "slap on the wrist."
What OSU got in sanctions was harsh, given what the players did; it was not harsh given the way that Tressel tried to sweep it under the rug. I am just sorry for Tressel, in that he didn't get any tattoos, and he didn't trade jerseys for weed or anything like that. But he fell down in his duty to report his kids to OSU Compliance.
But the timetable didn't fit. They hired Urban Meyer before their sanctions were announced. Also, I don't think players are that discouraged by sanctions. If it were my dream to play at OSU, a two-year bowl ban probably wouldn't deter me.
i hate myself for agreeing with you
I wouldn't say they received no penalty for the Clarett thing. He was ruled ineligible, which was a pretty big loss for them.
Also, they hired Meyer before the NCAA's penalties came down, so a second year of postseason ineligibility wouldn't have mattered.
It's not that they are too big to fail. It's that what would have caused their slide (Tressel getting fired and their star players getting suspended) just happened to occur at precisely the right time that they were able to get a rockstar-level coach in Meyer. If they would have hired basically anyone else (or kept Fickell), you can damn well bet they don't end up with a recruiting class anywhere near what they had last year, and in all likelihood are not off to the good start they have this year. No school is too big to fail if the right dominos fall.
They don't make a bowl game this year and they don't beat Michigan. I would say Michigan will smoke them. They have a bowl ban? Yup
but i think instead of "too big to fail" which denotes that they are too important to their regulating body to allow to do wrong, i think the better phrase would be "is financially supported to such a huge extent by their fans that failing is not permissible."
I think Adam Rittenberg is a good writer, and I think his was a very good article. He's completely correct, and he probably could have gone farther in a harsh comparison of how OSU transitioned from Tressel to Fickell to Meyer, as opposed to how Michigan transitioned from Carr to Rodriguez.
Here is what Rittenberg might have dug into some more: The critical thing, in program success and recruiting, is the appearance of stability. To go 6-6 might not be good; but it is far better to go 6-6 as Ohio State did last year, with everybody still pulling in the same direction and with a clear vision for the future, than it is to go 7-5 as Michigan did in 2010 and have the press wondering about what date the coach will get fired.
sorry; dbl. post
More like too big to jail.
Just like Miami was too big to fail? Florida State? Alabama? USC? Nebraska? Michigan?
All "too big to fail" programs that had the floor fall out from them at one time or another over the last 15 years.
I hardly think 3 seasons during which we increased the talent level and saw major facilities improvements amounts to "the bottom falling out"
But there is the W-L record, and the chaos behind the scenes. Rittenberg has, no doubt, read Three and Out. I'm guessing that Rittenberg was allowed to read galleys for Three and Out.
20+ straight bowls and 20+ years with no losing record.... and then 3-9.
In the end it is opinion, but, I can't see anyone on this board arguing that the bottom didn't fall out in 2008.
I agree that the numbers suggest the bottom fell out, but a lot of that had to do with our terrible recruiting in the waning Carr years. Including this most recent draft, we simply have not had the elite talent on hand to compete for B1G championships.
If you're suggesting that the bottom did indeed fall out, you need to expand the timeframe beyond just those three seasons.
I think all top programs are essentially "too big to fail" on a permenant basis.
Traditional basketball powers: UCLA, Indiana, Duke, UNC, Kanasas, Kentucky, etc. may have a couple down years but will always be top teams because top coaches and top salaries will always be there.
Same for football: UM, Ohio, USC, Texas, Bama, etc. will always have the facilities, the tradition, the money, and won't put up with mediocrity- so they will pay to fix it or turn it around. Hard to see that changing.
Teams like Boise St may fall because who knows if another coach can keep it going, and they won't have the money and long standing tradition of the other powerhouses.
This whole article seemed pointless. Ohio State may take a short-term hiatus from power but its hard ot imagine them not being a powerhouse team close to year-in-year-out.
They are on the verge of a permanent slide. They don't have a natural recruiting base in their home state, they don't have a premier coach, and they're going to be down long enough that younger recruits don't remember them being a power. I don't think it's unreasonable to think South Carolina may take UT's spot in the SEC pecking order.
But I think your point holds. With fervent fan support and great facilities, they probably only need a charismatic coach and a few breaks to climb back.
Of course they are too big to fail. Why? Because what Urban wants, Urban gets. /s
What a tool!
It sucks, but Ohio is too big of a football factory to fail on a prolonged basis. They have recruiting machines in both football and basketball that seem to operate fine no matter who is or isn't the coach there.
The closest Ohio has done to "failing" was their 2-10-1 record against Michigan from 1988-2000. If that happens again, though, I will be extremely happy.
The best thing Ohio has in their favor is their own media within the state, who act as de facto publicity/brainwashing outlets for the gospel of Ohio State everything. Kids are indoctrinated by the age of five, if not sooner, and it only gets worse from there.
Depends on your definition of "fail". Earle Bruce went 81-26-1, won or shared 4 Big 10 titles, went to 2 Rose Bowls, and compiled a 5-4 record against Michigan in his 9 years as OSU head coach, and that earned him a pink slip. Urban is facing a similar situation in that he's stepping into a situation where expectations are impossibly high. He's got a profile that will insulate him a bit, but if he can't maintain Tressel levels of dominance, he's going to lose support fast.
You know the Dispatch and the Lantern both covered the scandal stuff in pretty great detail right? The car story, the Ray Small interview, etc. There was no local media shield.
Any program can fail without the proper leadership. The biggest programs just usually have the greatest pull in getting the coaches they want. However, if they don't for long enough, then any can and will fail. Notre Dame is trying it's best at this very thing.
So's your mom, Rittenberg.
she's never failed me.
I consider that failing.
No team is too big to fail and the reality is that OSU and Meyer have two very big hurdles to clear:
First, Tressel has set the bar impossibly high; benefiting from a Big 10 that was in a decade-long malaise. With a resurgent Michigan, a competitive Wisconsin, and a Penn State that appears poised to recover faster than expected, Urban will be hard-pressed to meet unrealistic OSU fan expectations. When Meyer isn't able to run off 7 game winning streaks against Michigan and being the annual presumptive Big 10 champion, I wonder how much love he'll be getting from an OSU fanbase spoiled by an unprecedented decade of success.
Second, Meyer does not have a great track record with running a tight ship and with the NCAA spotlight on OSU during their probation, they don't have a large margin for error. They trip up again and the NCAA will have to come down hard on them and we'll see how fail-resistant they are then.
Your comments in this thread are deadly accurate in my opinion Ferris. I live in the belly of the beast (well actually in the throat - Cleveland area) but your assessment of their expectations are spot-on. A month or so ago WKNR (ESPN radio in Cleveland) had a listener poll up and here was the question:
"How many NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIPS do you think Meyer will win over the next 10 years?
The consensus answer was three. Some said as high as five/six and the low was one/two. They are EXPECTING to win 1/3 of all National Championships in the next decade.
Do they have a fan base with unrealistic and largely unattainble expecations? I'll say.
The path of logic that OSU fans follow is easy to see if you read OSU forums or blogs. It usually looks like this -
1. Urban Meyer > Jim Tressel
2. Ohio State > Florida
3. Urban Meyer + Florida = 2 National Championships
4. Urban Meyer + OSU = WORLD DOMINATION
I think there is a formula for this. Oh yes, here it is...
How many NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIPS do you think Meyer will win over the next 10 years?
This is delusional on so many levels. First, why would anyone in Ohio even maintain the slightest expectation that Urban Meyer will still be coaching in Columbus 10 years from now? Ohio is that much better a job than Florida. I don't think so. If Meyer has proven anything, it's that he gets antsy for a new challenge pretty easily. If he has success early and the Brian Kelly experiment in South Bend flames out, I can totally see Notre Dame finally relenting and rolling the Brinks truck up to Urban's front porch, begging him to save the Irish, and him accepting.
I just think it's hysterical that people look at Hoke and think he's Lloyd Carr reincarnated, all evidence to the contrary. Granted, do I expect Michigan to turn around and run off a big streak of wins against Ohio? No. But I'll bet that Hoke and his coaching staff will be able to keep their record around .500 against OSU. I think we're on the cusp of another 10 Year War (although it will probably be more like a 4 or 5 Year War).
So Rittenburg considers Washington to be a "brand name" football program? I know a few Washington grads who'd laugh at this.
I just read this as OSU didn't get hit with tough enough sanctions and got extremely lucky to have Urban Meyer floating around just as they fired Tressel.
"the fundamental theme is that anyone can be brought down. Programs had plummeted because of a lot less than what had transpired at Ohio State. " - from Rittenberg's article
While this is true, it is much more about how quickly programs are able to heal from these wounds, if you will, which is tied to their ability to recruit players and hire talented personnel to coach those players, even in the face of sanctions. Ohio did go 6-6 in the regular season and lost the Gator Bow l to an equally awful Florida team, but even in the face of scholarship restrictions, formal NCAA discipline and shame, they can hire Urban Meyer and be talked about as being a possibility for the conference championship game...if they were allowed to play in it this year, that is.
USC's relative dominance of the Pac-12 South Division has continued with little interruption in the face of sanctions, and again, I believe much of it has to do with getting the talent on and off the field as well as being a name among schools. They still ran away with a division that they could not represent in a title game last year.
Less-endowed programs without the resources of an Ohio or Michigan or USC would suffer greatly and suffer for a long time, I believe, under the same scenario of being hammered by staff turnover and formal NCAA sanctions simply because they do not have the budgets and backing of larger, more storied programs. Like so many smaller companies (if we're going to use corporate analogies), they are also far more sensitive to changes in recruiting patterns, talent shifts, and the like, as well as more constrained by budget considerations that put the A-list talent effectively out of reach. There are programs that were names back in the day that wallow in obscurity now for this very reason, in fact. If a smaller school had to can their Tressel, there is no guarantee of replacing it with like talent, whereas an Ohio can get Urban Meyer. They may succeed, but the success is based on far more fragile footing.
that is all I have to say regarding Rittenberg's article.
Don't really care about Ohio so much, either.
I'm sure he would have said the same about Michigan before RR. But as we all know, it doesn't take much to fall off the ledge for a few years. Now, is OSU too big to fail consistently? Probably. Not many traditional powers have had down-swings that lasted more than a few seasons. Notre Dame is one of the head-scratchers, but even then, they've had some BCS seasons sprinkled in here and there.
Now, can OSU fail? Yes. Will they? Probably not. And I think we can always count on OSU having very good players.
I have a friend down here in FL, who is a gators (fairweather) fan, and he only reminds me of our loss to Appalachian State as the down period for Michigan, that moment when Michigan was suddenly irrelevant. When I told him that it was that year we beat his Tim Tebow lead Gators, he was shocked..the RR era goes on deaf years to a lot of college football fans..to us Michigan fans, it was hell. I guess what im saying is that people won't look at this season as OSU losing because most of their media attention was focused on the violations of a power house program. Now they have Urban Meyer and everything "Pryor" meant nothing unless they blow it with a couple bad seasons, which is entirely possible.
Just like the all the banks that were also deemed "too big to fail", tOSU essentially got a bailout from the NCAA in the form of a slap on the wrist. Don't worry tOSU!! After next season you can go back to your annual bowl/playoff appearances, and you won't have to dwell on past mistakes or learn from them!!
What's your definition of slap on the wrist? It appears it's anything short of the death penalty.
Is Texas too big to suck? Or Oklahoma? Or Florida?
Texas was bad the past 2 years. Oklahoma was bad most of the 90s. Florida has been bad the last two years...
Rittenberg has some OK opinions but this one is pretty dumb.
How OSU successfully argued that JT the individual deserved what he got, but the JT the OSU football coach didn't do anything wrong, is totally beyond me.
Like penalties for like offenses? All USC got hit with was that someone should have known something, and they got killed. In OSU's case, the head of the program admitted to knowing and covering up! That is a FAR bigger infraction that got a much smaller penalty to the program. (JT's show-cause and the player suspensions are individual penalties that were 100% appropriate.) The scholarship losses amount to nothing, as most programs are that far below their allotment every year; I believe OSU has averaged using fewer schollies over the past few years.
"Give a Shit' in that butt-ass team from Columbus. Nor that ass-in-hand butt-ass team from E. Lansing. They are all classless losers that try to win at any cost. I have far more value in the integrity of MIGHTY MICHIGAN than I do in the shit-talking rhetoric of shitty-ass programs that don't have any idea of what it is to cultivate boys into men in an honest fashion than to listen to the banter of some guy trying to get everyone to read his columns at any cost(run-on sentence). It's just like reality TV. Fuck em. We will win in the end just like teen wolf.
I admire your verbage and candor Sir.
Weather forecast for La Paz, 55 degrees and partly sunny.
Slightly OT, but, am I the only one that thinks the notion of "too big to fail" is absolutely retarded? Yet it get repeated in the media all the time. The stupidity is just too much sometimes.