Regarding OL changes
I completely trust the coaches to do what is best for the team, and I think that initially Runyan and JBB were our best options. I think it would have been foolish to insert two freshman against Notre Dame right away. With that being said, some changes are potentially coming. Runyan is probably the weak link, mostly because he is playing out of position. It also sounds like Hudson is more ready to play then Mayfield, which is to be expected since he has more experience.
So..since Hudson is a right tackle and JBB appears to have some value in run blocking, how might we re-shuffle this line? Does JBB slide over to left tackle to make room for Hudson at right? Doesn’t seem to be a perfect solution since JBB struggles so much in pass protection. Perhaps we can try to utilize his strength in the run game and minimize the pass protection flaws with more roll outs away from pressure? Or we roll the dice with Mayfield at some point knowing he lacks experience and is likely to make more mistakes. Any thoughts?
September 13th, 2018 at 9:54 AM ^
While this thread might be slammed, I was curious about something that maybe someone with more experience might be able to answer:
How much does shuffling OL affect them? For instance, would going a series with JBB and Runyan and then one with Mayfield and Hudson be a complete waste of time? Would that interfere with the whole offensive line's cohesion too much to try?
September 13th, 2018 at 10:22 AM ^
That's a bad idea! Communication on the offensive line is HUGE, and when you're shuffling guys in and out in my opinion you'll hurt more then help in that aspect. For example, as we've all seen against ND that the OL struggled with T/DE and N/DE twists a lot of that boils down to communication. The most intriguing thing coach Warinner said in his press conference is that you can "ruin" a young offensive lineman if you play him to early. I truly believe that may of happened during Hoke's tenure at Michigan.
September 13th, 2018 at 10:24 AM ^
If I remember from my high school Oline playing days, there is a relationship between offensive linemen. Especially when giving a helping block to move up to second level..you have to kind of know the strengths and weaknesses of the guy next to you. Other than that though, assignments shouldn't ever really change. This was back in the 70's though during my hey-day...its been a few years (and pounds gained, and brain cells lost) since then. hehe
September 13th, 2018 at 10:30 AM ^
user name checks out !
Go Blue!
September 13th, 2018 at 10:53 AM ^
I think the cohesion thing is probably overstated. If Warinner is to believed, the other guys are getting 25%+ of the first team snaps already in practice, and other OL have stated they practice at multiple positions on the line.
That said, I would think if the coaches ID Runyan as the weak link, JBB would stay at RT and Hudson would get LT. Hudson was at RT with the second team, but everything coming out of camp was he was pushing for the LT spot. My guess is his reps with the first team are coming at LT, but I have no clue.
September 13th, 2018 at 1:23 PM ^
"...but everything coming out of camp was he was pushing for the LT spot"
This was not true for the last couple weeks in camp according to the reports on 247, WTKA and this site. Hudson was at RT mid/late-August.
September 13th, 2018 at 9:56 AM ^
Pass protection seemed to improve with Runyan and JBB during week 2. I think Hudson and/or Mayfield may be shuffled in as the game goes on. 25%+ of the snaps. Sort of a Brandon Peters/JOK situation.
September 13th, 2018 at 10:13 AM ^
Pass protection seemed to improve with Runyan and JBB during week 2.
WMU =/= ND at any level and Michigan still had a lot of roll outs for Patterson and even had some max protect 2 or 3 man routes to help protect him.
Don't read much into the pass protection last week because it isn't indicative of what will happen against OSU, MSU, PSU, or Wisconsin.
September 13th, 2018 at 11:43 PM ^
I’m looking forward to seeing Mayfield and/or Hudson out there for the second half on Sat. Why not?
September 14th, 2018 at 9:47 AM ^
My goodness EXACTLY!
We blow the doors of Western (and this year it's a BAD Western team) and suddenly the O-Line looks so much better! Well gee I wonder why! LoL. And I would look like the world's best basketball player when I face 10 year olds...but put me on the court with college teams, or pro teams, or heck, even good high school teams and guess what...I suddenly won't look very good. Funny how that works.
This game against Western is a wash as far as perceiving any solid improvement on the O-Line. The line looked better merely by virtue of the quality (or lack thereof) of the opponent and I suspect the very same result in tomorrow's SMU game. They're gimme games to hopefully allow the team and coaches to figure things out in time for the real stuff come conference play.
So while obviously there can be improvements made and teaching going on by the coaches during these cupcake eating contests, let's just give it a rest when we over-analyze the O-Line. Wait until we face Nebraska or Northwestern before we try and seriously grade out the O-Line again. Until then we're mostly just wasting our time.
September 13th, 2018 at 10:19 AM ^
It wasnt really that great considering the level of competition. Shea still got sacked vs WMU. They need to figure something different out before we face nick bosa.
September 13th, 2018 at 10:32 AM ^
Interestingly, Ball State had 4 sacks against ND and kept Wimbush in check with -7 yards rushing.
Maybe M's OLine didn't show great progress over MAC-level competition but I don't think giving up a single sack is really the reason why.
September 13th, 2018 at 10:54 AM ^
Shea still got sacked vs WMU
On a naked boot by the guy that was not blocked by design. The pass to a wide open McKeon that he missed was probably a better example.
September 13th, 2018 at 2:24 PM ^
On the overthrow to McKeon that one was definitely on Bredeson.
September 13th, 2018 at 10:01 AM ^
Not a direct answer to the question, but something to keep in mind.
OL are not necessarily cross-trained extensively. While it has been stated that JBB and Hudson both worked at LT throughout Spring and possibly into fall, much of the footwork and hand placement in pass protection and to a lesser degree in the run game is mirrored. So imagine brushing your teeth or wiping your butt with your opposite hand... it's pretty weird.
We are seeing this to a degree at MSU right now. Campbell, their traditional RT all of last year, has been playing LT. And his footwork is awful at LT. Clearly was not cross-trained enough. It isn't just a simple "it's a OT, so can be inserted at RT or LT" (I expect, at least to a degree, this is why Bredeson went from "almost LT" to "is a LG" and never really has been tried at RT over the course of a season; if he was tried during the off-season or not I don't know though).
September 13th, 2018 at 10:10 AM ^
You bring up a good point. I don't think I've ever thought about it being mirrored like that....
I'd have to wash my left hand like 7 times if I tried wiping that way....
September 13th, 2018 at 10:37 AM ^
Good analogy indeed. Also, you poop a lot!
September 13th, 2018 at 12:56 PM ^
I am pooped just reading that
September 13th, 2018 at 5:56 PM ^
Why dont you just wash both hands simultaneously like the rest of the world.
September 13th, 2018 at 6:49 PM ^
I don't think he literally meant to wipe with your left hand, you're still supposed to use toilet paper guy.
September 13th, 2018 at 10:47 PM ^
Now you tell me.
September 14th, 2018 at 2:28 AM ^
Unless your from India.
September 13th, 2018 at 10:10 AM ^
Right. And with Hudson being a RT, seems inserting him may not help us as much as we think. Still have a major problem at LT. But I know JBB has played some LT in the past for us. That’s why I was surprised when it came out Runyan was playing LT and not RT.
September 13th, 2018 at 10:31 AM ^
Possibly a dumb question but what makes someone a RT vs. being able to be a LT?
September 13th, 2018 at 12:11 PM ^
Not an expert but from what I have gathered...
LT as blind-side protector is a pass-pro guy first and thus tends to be longer and leaner (if having to choose between bulk and nimbleness). RT is more run-first oriented and is where the “road graders” tend to end up unless they are physical freaks.
In this case Mayfield is the prototype LT and Hudson the RT.
On a positive note (or grasping at straws) it is apparently reasonably “doable” to hide one weak tackle in pass-pro, so if Hudson can approximate the mashing of JBB with better pass-pro ability it can be a noticeable improvement even if Runyan is the weaker link.
September 13th, 2018 at 6:20 PM ^
That is not true anymore. You can't hide a weak OL because DC are smart enough to find a weak spot and exploit by putting their best pass rusher on them. You have to be strong in pass pro across the board or the OL will struggle.
September 13th, 2018 at 10:51 PM ^
You can use running backs and tight ends to help one tackle, but helping both really limits the passing game.
September 14th, 2018 at 7:54 AM ^
Build that credibility for a bit, the BAM. You need to find a new hobby.
September 13th, 2018 at 10:12 AM ^
Helpful illustration, but I hope I can soon expel the repeating GIF in my head of trying to wipe with my off hand...
September 13th, 2018 at 10:03 AM ^
I remember an NFL OL (Josh Sitton maybe) saying that switching from left side to right side on an o-line was like trying to wipe your backside with the other hand.
Which sounds... less than ideal.
September 13th, 2018 at 1:33 PM ^
Maybe a good way to practice transition from RT to LT would be to first begin wiping your ass with the opposite hand?
September 14th, 2018 at 9:43 AM ^
I can verify this. Broke my right hand a few years back, and spent six weeks in a cast, trying to wipe from the left side. You tend to use a lot more paper, just to be safe.
Which probably has nothing to do with playing OT, so never mind.
September 13th, 2018 at 10:11 AM ^
I think it would make sense that both Hudson and Mayfield would slowly be integrated to have more snaps. Vs. SMU maybe that means a 50-50 split. Maybe that stays vs. Nebraska and if all goes well they take those spots over with Mayfield staying at LT and Hudson at RT.
I think if that is the case, it is still better for all players involved and doesn't have Runyan in a bad spot because he was yanked during a game, or after ND. (If that makes sense).
September 13th, 2018 at 10:13 AM ^
Perhaps we can try to utilize his strength in the run game and minimize the pass protection flaws with more roll outs away from pressure?
not sure its possible to minimize any more, theyre near maxed out in that regard. im sure youve noticed the 2 gameplans
September 13th, 2018 at 10:35 AM ^
Perhaps we can try to utilize his strength in the run game ...
With our catch focus TE's (which I like), I wouldn't mind seeing extra tackles lined up as tight ends on short yardage formations.
Go Blue!
September 13th, 2018 at 10:14 AM ^
The answer is, we dont hit the panic button yet and make any changes. I know ill get negged fpr that but Notre Dame DL is one of the best in the country, they were big and they blitzed their linebackers all game long, it was a tough game. We just need to get better at what were trying to do, and play better, Im not sure making big changes after 1 game is a good idea IMO.
September 13th, 2018 at 10:16 AM ^
The late flip of Runyan and JBB/Hudson was concerning coming into this season. JBB/Hudson were battling it out at LT for the spring and into the fall with Runyan locking down RT.
Then fall camp came and they flipped, which I take to mean JBB/Hudson were not going to be able to handle LT. So if they move Runyan out of LT, moving 1 of the 2 guys who you just moved away from LT is... concerning.
September 13th, 2018 at 10:16 AM ^
- Best Case - Hudson and Mayfield win jobs in next 1-3 weeks
- Worst Case - Runyan and JBB hold onto jobs for remainder of the year.
- What we know - Mayfield is getting ~25% of first team snaps in practice. Hudson is getting more run than Mayfield.
- What we don't know - everything else.
I trust in Harbaugh and Warriner to make the transition if and when it is best to do so.
September 13th, 2018 at 10:28 AM ^
I think Warinner's interview was one of the better ones we've had in a few years. He's very detailed and gave the listener a lot of information. I'll trust that he and Harbs will have the OL playing better every week.
September 13th, 2018 at 10:40 AM ^
The 2014 Ohio State offensive line gave up 7 sacks in a home loss to VaTech and then ended up winning the National Championship. Warinner is an outstanding coach and the OL will improve. He stated in his interview, "the vets will either continue to ascend or the younger guys will take their place". Sounds good to me!
Go Blue
September 13th, 2018 at 10:55 AM ^
I don't know why, but I had not thought about that relative to what happened to Michigan against ND.
I personally don't think that Michigan has the pieces to replicate that OSU season (OSU stands in the way, unfortunately) but it does give one pause.
Even good teams lose on the road sometimes. It doesn't mean you can't rebound.
September 13th, 2018 at 11:56 AM ^
Very few teams have gone undefeated in recent years. Look at the past National Champions, only 3 of last 10 went undefeated.
2017 Alabama (13-1) lost at Auburn in game 12. Now UCF was undefeated but easier schedule.
2016 Clemson (14-1) lost to Pitt at home in game 10.
2015 Alabama (14-1) lost to Ole Miss at home in game 3.
2014 OSU (14-1) lost to VT at home in game 2.
2013 Florida St (14-0)
2012 Alabama (13-1) lost to Texas AM at home in game 10.
2011 Alabama (12-1) lost to LSU at home in game 9.
2010 Auburn (14-0)
2009 Alabama (14-0)
2008 Florida (13-1) lost to Ole Miss at home in game 4.
Oddly, most of these teams lost a home game, not on the road.
With the playoff including 4 teams, you have a great shot at making the playoffs with only 1 loss and I would think it would almost be a guarantee if you have 1 loss and a Power 5 Conference title, especially with a Championship game. But their is no margin for error once you lose. You need to run the table although LSU in 2007 made the Championship game with 2 losses (12-2). They had lost at Kentucky in game 7 and at home to Arkansas in game 12.
September 13th, 2018 at 11:05 PM ^
It took a weird series of events in the last couple of weeks for LSU to make it.
September 13th, 2018 at 5:18 PM ^
The best case scenario: Runyan continues to improve in his third overall start at LT, and JBB does his kid b, and the line continues to develop a chemistry working together.
I get on Devin Gil for being a slow reactor who gets caught up in the wrong hole, at LB, for Kosh Ross has outplayed him and the defense has lots of rotations.
The offensive line needs chemistry and good com skills. And they don’t rotate. If the coaches are not comfortable putting Hudson or Mayfield in until the game is at hand, I’d think the coaches see a bigger gap than fans believe.
September 13th, 2018 at 10:25 AM ^
None of our next four opponents has a good defense (with the possible exception of Northwestern). I think we should experiment heavily with Mayfield at LT and Hudson at RT in the next few weeks to determine if that's viable, and if it is, work out the kinks.
The idea of Runyan playing LT against Wisconsin and OSU gives me the shivers, so if Mayfield isn't ready, then at least we can figure out whether it makes more sense to play JBB or Hudson at LT.
September 13th, 2018 at 10:32 AM ^
But similarly, the idea of a true freshman playing LT against Wisconsin, MSU and Penn St is maybe even more frightening to me.
September 13th, 2018 at 11:00 AM ^
So, thinking out loud, let's consider:
1. Runyon and JBB play against Wiscy, MSU, PState and OSU. They perform marginally okay to badly in all outings. Let's say we lose 3 of 4.
2. Mayfield and Hudson play against Wiscy, MSU, PState and OSU. They perform mostly bad to badly in all outings. We lose 4 of 4.
Is there any marked difference between the two, really? What's one more win going to allow?
The 2nd scenario at least allows those young players to gain valuable game time experience.
Back to Warinner's point, I guess: you don't want to ruin the player. Destroying their confidence could be devastating if it has a lasting effect.
September 13th, 2018 at 11:22 AM ^
I don’t feel that way. I’d take one win over zero wins against those 4 any day. Whoever helps us win should play. This is a win now business and a win now year for Harbaugh.
September 14th, 2018 at 10:14 AM ^
I thought his point about not ruining young players was more about not moving them around — a young player needs to learn his position: footwork, execution of line calls, and so on. Thus all the discussion above re: toilet-paper technique. So Hudson will stay at RT and Mayfield at LT for this season.