Wow; I don't think I've ever seen so many Freshman redshirts burned in a Game One. By my count:
- Dymonte Thomas
- Derrick Green
- Channing Stribling
- Ben Gedeon
- Shane Morris
- De'Veon Smith
- Delano Hill
- Csont'e York
- Jake Butt
There may have been more.
I have no problem with this. The best men will see the field, regardless of age/class. The freshmen, IMO were very impressive in the roles they did have.
Get these guys as much experience as we can as fast as we can. We are going to need them.
The really great ones are going pro anyway, probably after four years, and we have recruits coming behind them. Let em play!
That was Pete Carroll's philosophy 10 years ago. It worked rather well, I think.
If you are recruiting well, you can afford to play the freshman. Playing true freshman (who deserve to be on the field) helps you recruit better.
If they're all going to play anyway, then blood them early and often.
Stribling twice? I'm impressed!
I thought he had burned his redshirt eligibility in Cross Country too. My bad. thanks for the correction.
because he's that good!
The only one that really surprises me is York. Maybe he's doing the best out of the three freshman WRs...or he's just good on special teams.
re: York. We have not much depth - we have the Jackson, Reynolds, Chesson, Dileo and Gallon - and sorta Northfleet. So if you have 2 injuries this season you are down to 4. I assume one of the 3 freshman needed to be sacrificed due to this situation. Also we have a truckload of WRs coming. Next year York and his fellow 2 freshman, Darboh, Chesson, and I assume Drake Harris is going to be pushing for playing time if the Treadwell experience at Ole Miss is any indication. Harris has 2 freshmen coming with him and behind them is Campbell (assuming he is a WR and not a safety at UM) plus probably 1 more in the 2015 class. So you can spread them out a bit in terms of when they graduate.
But then again, sorta not right? Because that Norfleet guy looked pretty good out there today.
You know, I don't get the sense that any were "burned" in the sense of being needlessly used. My sense is all were reasonable given depth and skill issues.
I was thinking about redshirts on Thursday watching the Ole Miss game. They were playing a lot of true freshmen. It's just the nature of the game today, I think ... if you have a great freshman talent, use him.
The key is keeping the recruiting pipeline full, and I think this coaching staff has proven adept at that.
True freshmen play for every program in the country. I would stop obsessing about what our 2017 roster will look like and just enjoy watching the guys play.
Stribling must be a hell of a player to burn his redshirt twice. Nobody cares about burned red shirts when you recruit like Hoke and company.
Technically they haven't been burned yet, right? If they don't play the rest of the season they can still get theirs right?
Barring injury I believe their redshirts are gone with any playing time at all.
Not unless they get so hurt they miss the rest of the season.
I have never understood why the whole redshirt thing is so hard to understand.
Basketball is a little more confusing. You can play early in the season and there's some sort of algorithm of when you actually burn the redshirt (certain point in the season, games played, or something...). Maybe that's why it's a little bit difficult for people to grasp.
With the exception of exhibitions, you cannot play in any regular-season basketball game—early or not—and get a "regular" (i.e., non-medical) redshirt.
Thanks for being unreasonably angry all the time. It provides levity.
not unless they are injured.
Shane Morris is the one that I hated to see but I understand why they are doing it.
Like Brian said (I think), the coaching staff feeling the need to forego Shane's redshirt may indicate what they think about Devin's ceiling and his chances for going to the NFL next season. Time will tell.
100% agree. Getting Shane reps is a good thing. Just hoping he doesn't "have" to make too big of an impact this season!
Get him ready to play. Even if he is a backup for this year and next, it'll only help him when he takes over. If he was the best 2nd, we need him ready and junk time will give him enough experience.
God forbid, but If that happens this year as we compete for a championship, do you want a Shane who's taking his first snaps in a big game, or a Shane who's had some real game experience? It could be the difference between a big 10 championship and steak knives.
or..they know we just need a good back up and Shane is the #2.
There doesn't have to be some deep, conspiratorial reason behind it. He's our backup QB and every team plays its backup in blowout games.
It absolutely had to happen. We have to have a ready back-up during Big Ten play.
Morris WILL get more junk time next week against Notre Dame!
That could go both ways.
...but that is the all-time dumbest rationale. What don't YOU PEOPLE understand? How does mop-up duty vs. CMU's backups get you ready for B1G play? You realize these are the same players that go against MICHIGAN'S 1st team (offense or defense) in practice? So Shane Morris is going to learn more against CMU's 2nd team than he is vs. Countess, Taylor, Avery and T. Gordon?
I was leary about this as well but when they put him in today I said to my buddy that I will go crazy if he is in to just hand the ball off... I'm glad to see him toss the ball so not terribly upset his redshirt was burned
The best guys need to see the field period. Brady needs to win this year to keep the recruiting momentum going. We are not yet on an Alabama-type level where we can afford to redshirt superior talent. Maybe in a few years hopefully.
I was fretting about the burned redshirts but I think you are right with this.
So many Channing's, too little time...
Does anyone know how he played? I lost track of him today.
Maybe if more guys from the 2009 and 2010 recruiting classes had played out their eligibility it wouldn't have been necessary.
played, and has a cool face mask
Bring in MORE RECRUITS. MORE STARS. MORE!!!!
MOAR recruits, MOAR redshirts to burn, MOAR MOAR MOAR!!!
Don't think of it as redshirts burned. Think of it as young talent earning the chance to play.
If recruits know they have a chance to play year one, they will be more likely to come. Absolutely let them play. We have been doing such a great job at recruiting, it'll only help recruiting to allow them to play.
Our kickoff unit has about 4 or 5 freshmen, I think.
I don't know if people think I am making a value judgment by using the term "burned redshirt." I am not; no judgment at all. And a lot of freshman special-teams kids (Thomas, Gedeon, Stribling, etc.) are clearly earning spots in the 2- and 3-deep regular units.
Keep the talent rolling in and it won't matter.
Red shirt yet
Considering the contributions of these guys made today, even when the game was well in hand, I really don't have issues with this either.
Granted, it's one game, and it was CMU, but for example, Shane Morris looked rather good considering it is his first game ever, Derrick Green actually turned out to be the most explosive RB statistically at 5.3 YPC. On defense, I think Stribling gave glimpses of what he can do, and Thomas made a nice contribution on special teams.
I thought I saw Dukes out there for a play.
I thought I saw Taco out on field goal D
Taco played like 20 snaps.
Yep you did. 33.
Wasn't the whole Devin 2010 "injury" really a bunch of hooey?
But I think Gardner will make it all a moot point by having a great 2013 season and going pro.
How can you call them "burned" in game one?? I would consider "burning" a redshirt in week 9...The best play, game experience is valuable!
It sounds like Brian & Co. are the only ones particularly arsed about redshirts or the lack thereof.
just a booboo
Gedeon was a beast from what I saw on ST and Stribling looking great at DB. This class is so talented the staff has no choice but to play them. We are going to be a scary team at the end of the season.
I feel like you are saying this is a bad thing, but I don't know why.
I think all the fresh whom played today will benefit the team this year.
On an injury note, Reynolds and Funchess seem to be fine, but did the broadcast say anything about Drake? It also looked to me that Gallon went out (either late 2nd or early 3rd) favoring his arm, and I didn't see him play again. Anything said about this on TV or radio?
But recruits will see that the talented frosh are playing right away. That can only be a good thing. Let the god times roll.
Kenny Allen on that last punt
He's a redshirt freshman already
First 6 all look to be major contributors and if Funchess goes out Butt is probably next in line. Dont worry about 2017 today. If we continue to recruit like this you have plenty of players to play in situations and positions where you'd have a 5th year senior. Guys like Gedeon and Charlton and Green (and even D. Smith) already have "junior/senior" like size so its not a matter of physicality. If they are not on the o-line or d-line except for a rare exception like say a Hand or McDowell, let them play if they are competitive with older players.
12 Sophs on the roster. All 12 played against Alabama in last years opener
I see no problem with all of this. Getting the best players to play regardless of class. And Morris needs to get playing time so we can avoid another Nebraska Bellomy disaster
Isn't it Hoke's nature to burn redshirts. He hates the color red.
This made me laugh
Good to know. Very noteworthy. The blog would be a much better place if everyone informed everyone everytime they laughed.
Yes! No laughter on the blog!
PS: fuck off
This made me laugh.
to post how noteworthy you thought his laugh post was. My post is noteworthy too. Now we don't have to respond back and forth to eternity because I said my post was noteworthy.
That is okay with me. Bellomy's injury may have caused Shane to play but we need to establish depth there and at RB especially. The lines will always be more likely to redshirt and the skill guys playing are all in positions of little depth, just like last year.
we need players now. saving the redshirts now is like paying 25% interest on a credit card when you have money in the bank earning 1% interest, just to save that money.
I agree, win now.
This game is a microcosm of what lies ahead: a ton of "woolwwwwwoolwww" moments, and a few too many "wtf" situations. We will make a lot of people cry this year, but it may be more of "us" than we like at times.
No reason for this post to have so many negs. It's a relatively informative list of who lost redshirts (though a numbered list rather than bulleted and update when more is known would be great)
Who's left that's not on the offensive line?
dukes, poggi off the top of my head
McCray, R. Dawson
It's not like this is the 9th game and these guys are seeing their first action. It's the first game. Most, if not all, of these guys are going to see significant playing time against Akron, UConn and possibly in some conference games. So they're probably not going to have their redshirt burned by playing in one game. Try as much as you want in practie, you just can't replicate the experience that comes with seeing the field on Saturdays. If these guys end up getting reps in 4 or 5 games, that's so valuable and provides great coaching points for the staff during the week.
Burns a redshirt, unless the player gets injured (like DG did a few yrs back).
as if they're something that already exists automatically and that are out there to be "burned" From the first minute of the season. These guys were good enough to play right from the start, so they should play. If someone hasn't played for the first 9 games and THEN you play them (other than because of a rash of injuries), that's burning a redshirt
...because YOU get it. Congrats. I hope everyone not only reads...but comprehends your post.
helped them burn the redshirts.
How much might this be because Hoke wants to throw everything into this season and next, thinking we can win now, not just in a few years?
I know what you mean about this season and next, and I completely agree that we should do everything in our power (including 'burning' redshirts) to win now.
But since you brought up next year... well, I don't know that next year will be our year. But have you seen 2015's schedule? Our road games are Utah, Maryland, Minnesota, Indiana and Penn State. 2015 could be the year.
If Shane is ready. The schedule sets up. And feeding into the whole theme of this post (dont burn Shane's redshirt!) he will be a lot more ready in 2015 playing 2013-2014 than missing 2013 and RS 2014 or vice versa. The 2014 season will be the season of an epic defense but holes on offense (maybe 1 less hole based on what these RBs showed today) - tackles and WRs all being essentially brand new. The 2015 season should have everything you want aside from some LBs and corners leaving...except it will be a first year starter at QB. That 2 year window (15-16) should be where we are talking final 4 playoff.
Are going to have perfect careers and that they can accurately project the roster in four years. Lots of these kids could be gone or buried on the depth chart in 4 years. Their are to many variables at play if they can contribute they play and if they are a project they redshirt. I am a huge believer that their is no substitute for in game reps.
When the program isn't riddled with attrition and the coaches bring in a new cavalry of monster talent every year, it gives you the luxury of getting your players in and through in 3-4 years. Let's not fail to notice how this helps recruiting as well. "Almost all of our skill player freshmen contributed...."
might as well play them young to get some instant depth. May be in the next couple years we will have the depth luxury to RS our talented Freshman.
Until a day arrives when they demonstrate that they can't recruit talented replacements. And let's not forget that a 5th year senior means one less recruit later on down the line.
There are definitely individual cases where it's a bad idea to burn a redshirt, as there are individual cases where it's a bad idea (or a waste) to redshirt. I think it's okay (and important) to scrutinize the decisions they make, but I don't think there's a clearcut answer here, and I think the staff has proven they know how to manage a roster well enough that we should at least give them the benefit of the doubt.
I think, of all the elements of the game, roster management is the one area I have close to implicit and unconditional faith in Hoke and his staff.
The only one that seems like it has a chance to bite us is Taco. We were down two bodies in the secondary and the staff is fearful about what happened in the bowl game, so getting guys experience is a good thing there. Anybody who can find a role is going to help the team this year and anybody who doesn't probably isn't going to be a guy you want to keep around for year 5 anyway (if he's behind the guys in his own class he's unlikely to hold off Peppers, et. al). We knew Butt and the running backs would probably have a role and they were in the game fairly early (and with Johnson hurt they'd have been in even earlier). And Gedeon looks like a guy who would be immediately in the mix if one of the three MLB were to go down.
Charlton is still raw and just has so many guys in front of him (7 other DE played) and the SAM spot (especially when Ryan comes back) is producing pass rush as well so I'm not sure where he fits in at any point during an actually competitive game. Maybe the staff think he's a surefire off-to-the-NFL guy (and he has the frame to do it) but I don't know that he'll make any kind of impact this year and as such I'd like to have kept that extra year in the back pocket. York may be the other potential regret, but again, if he can't be of any help this year (just one big catch could make a difference) then his 5th year probably won't be missed. That's another spot where injury has pushed everybody closer to the field with Darboh out for the season.
I wouldn't be surprised to see Taco get a lot of play later in the season on obvious passing downs/drives.
A lot of this is because we dont have no stinkin upperclassman! The 2010 class was eviscerated. I dont see this as an ongoing thing in the Hoke era - i.e. playing a dozen or so every year, but it is a need right now due to lack of depth everywhere. Now the depth is there but it has to be provided in part by freshman. 2 years from now, stars willing, it will be provided mostly be RS freshman or RS sophomores - with 4-6 freshman a year rather than 11-12. These are first world problems. Team 134 lacks upperclassmen depth so it is being replaced by a lot of people who are very young. Team 136 I see this becoming less of an issue but even then, if the kid can play and is as good than the upperclassmen or will be within half a season as projected by coaches - play.
Going on a player by player basis:
The two main reasons why (IMO) players are (non-medically) readshirted are 1. they are not physically/mentally ready to compete or 2. the position group has enough depth where they take the year to hone their abilities, and the freshman playing would not help out much. Most the guys who weren't redshirted fail one of these two categories. They're either physically/mentally ready to play (Green, Smith, Gedeon, Butt, Stribling, Thomas) or their position group has little depth (MORRIS, Hill, York, Lewis). In some cases some guys are just too good to keep off the field (Taco, Green, Thomas...etc).
I guess the moral of the story is that I see why the coaches burned all these redshirts. Most of them were to provide much needed depth at shallow positions, with players who are ready to compete. The only ones I might disagree with at this point are Jourdan Lewis and C'sonte York, as they both didn't do much outside of special teams (and I don't like the idea of burning a guys redshirt, especially a player as good as Lewis, to have him chase a few kickoffs a game). That being said, there is a chance both factor into WR depth this year, so maybe that will happen. But for the most part, I'm totally cool with these guys playing this year
One more tangent: As for Morris, I still would like him to get a redshirt year. In my ideal situation, assuming Gardner stays for the next year, Gardner stars, Bellomy comes back from injury to back up Gardner, and Shane sits out, and redshirts that year. I doubt this will happen, but I still would like to get an extra year of eligibility from Shane, and if he isn't needed to back up Devin, then he could definitely benifit from a redshirt year.
Edit: This turned out much longer than I anticipated it would.
Shane can't redshirt next year. Non medical redshirts can only be used while the athlete is a freshman.
What was Stonum doing? What IS Hagerup doing? It's not common, but you don't have to redshirt your freshman year.
Weren't those two suspended?
Maybe you're right, maybe I'm wrong. I don't know, all this redshirt talk is driving me batty. All I know is that there is ZERO chance Shane red shirts next year barring injury.
But I hate the idea of giving a kid playing time and then redshirting him the next year. I feel like it could mess with his progression. You have the next few years to recruit the qb position get some depth in the pipeline and start sending them to the league again.
As stated above, by Brown Bear, you apparently cannot. That being said, I think he'd probably be the 3rd string QB next year, and he probably would not get any important playing time. I honestly don't think that some limited playing time wouldn't be that different than redshirting.
Unless he somehow regresses throughout the year and somehow Bellomy becomes Brian Griese there is no way that Shane is 3rd string next year. If the redshirt is burned you use him accordingly. 2nd string will get more snaps than 3rd so it makes no sense to move him. The shirt is burned, he's now number two until Devin leaves.
We have a ton of young kids and hoke's recruits are really pushing for playing time. Anyone who will be a serious contender for playing time next year needs game experience. I think that every single one of those kids could contend for a starting spot or at least meaningful reps nxt year. If that is the case you have to get their feet wet. I felt like their was not a huge drop off when the young kids went in. I assume that central also had there 2nd string in but I did not think these were wasted reps. Also gedeon seemed to be in on a lot of plays and is large.
When I played, you could play in non conference games and still maintain your redshirt, however, that was nearly 15 years ago and in the MAC. dunno what the B1G rule is or if the NCAA has changed that at all.
So basically I never saw anything of York, Smith was just OK, and Lewis was OK. Other than that all contributed and some very significantly. So basically, I don't see a problem?
...caused a fumble.
Out of 68 players that went to the hotel 36 were first or second year players. We are a young team but our attrition is way down so it will balance out.