Real talk: what exactly is this program's ceiling?

Submitted by FrankMurphy on January 1st, 2023 at 6:36 PM

This topic has been discussed before, but this is probably a good time to revisit the question.

On the one hand, we just pulled off a perfect season, a second consecutive dominant win over a loaded OSU team (on paper, at least), and a second consecutive B1G Championship despite having significantly fewer players who were consensus 4- or 5-star recruits than OSU. We've gone 25-3 over two seasons, which is pretty damn good.

On the other hand, we just lost to a school whose level of raw talent and athleticism is significantly lower than ours (again, on paper), which started the season unranked, whose coach has only been on the job a year, and which hasn't even been a Power 5 program for a full decade. We seem to have chronic problems in bowl games, a pattern that dates back over 50 years.

I think most would agree that our ceiling is below that of Alabama, which has won six national championships in the BCS/CFP era alone. And I think most would agree that Michigan should be among upper crust of the B1G in any given year. But within that range, what's a reasonable expectation for, say, a 25-year stretch? Should a national championship be a once-a-decade occurrence? Should it be a once-a-quarter-century occurrence (after all, our last one was 25 years ago)? In light of the current landscape (especially given new realities that are perceived to put Michigan at a disadvantage, like NIL and the transfer portal), is a national championship even a realistic expectation anymore? Was it ever (even 1997 was our first in 50 years)?

Interested in hearing people's thoughts.

evenyoubrutus

January 1st, 2023 at 6:39 PM ^

JJ McCarthy had a better sophomore year than Andrew Luck, and Donovan Edwards might be the most explosive and dynamic player Harbaugh has ever coached. Next year's ceiling is your imagination. 

Buy Bushwood

January 1st, 2023 at 7:01 PM ^

Since you asked, here's what I think.  

1. Need an outside WR to emerge in the class of Manningham, Collins, Streets, Terrell.  

2. Our passing game needs to become more sophisticated.  Watching UGA, their passing game just seems more layered than ours.  Of course they have a 38-year-old senior QB.  I can't tell if this is that JJ is still learning or just Harbaugh dinosauring it.  I assume the former, since Luck/Stanford seemed to have more in this department.  Hopefully it's JJ, and will come with the continued learning curve.  

3. Feel like we really need an upgrade in our playcalling.  Not a single screen or QB read option last night.  That was crazy against a hyper-pursuing defense.  And where in THE HELL was the Jeff Brohm double flea-flicker keeper?  

4. If Corum leaves we need a high-end back desperately.  The Don is just not a down-to-down back. What a sinking feeling it was to keep seeing Mullings in the game on important downs.  I remember reading about our stacked RB room in preseason.  That evaporated with one injury.  

4. Let's drop the safety blitz from 20 yards back out of the playbook.  

5. If JJ keeps progressing, I think we could hang with anyone with the talent in place for next year. I also think that unless he flies over the moon with development or Harbaugh leaves, JJ will be 4 years at UM, with a chance to beat OSU every year.  He can keep us in almost any game.   

 

treetown

January 1st, 2023 at 7:27 PM ^

Yes, exactly - when one looks back on this game in a few years, that will really stand out - Michigan had not given up the killer turn over all season, and yes, their first half red zone had issues but usually they came away with 3 points and not zero.

Still, it was a glorious season and we can look forward to next year, when the Wolverines will try to make it three in a row against the Buckeyes.

MRunner73

January 1st, 2023 at 7:24 PM ^

I like the glass half full attitude but this team could have hung 60 pts on TCU if things had gone just a little better. First drive gave up 6 (7) pts right there. Take away just one Pick-6 by TCU and Michigan would have overcome the deficit.

It is what it is. Things went wrong and Michigan gave it one hell of an effort and came up just short. They overcame an 18 pt margin twice then trailed by 19 with 41-22 and still came roaring back and had 3:18 left at that point (41-38).

UMxWolverines

January 1st, 2023 at 8:05 PM ^

This is the same argument people used to make about Rich Rod's offenses "But we score a lot if points, if only we had a defense" But fail to realize if youre playing catch up all the time from the offense stalling out a lot early that's not a good overall offense. 

Not saying we didnt have a good offense this year, we did, but it absolutely is missing an element in the passing game because guys struggle to get open. 

RobM_24

January 1st, 2023 at 8:40 PM ^

45 isn't a big number against a Big12 team. SMU scored 34 on them. Oklahoma State 40. We also got two possessions back immediately bc of the pick-6's.

 

45 isn't bad, but Championship caliber teams do more in the playoffs. In recent history -- LSU scored 63 on Oklahoma. Alabama scored 49 on OSU. Alabama scored 52 on OSU. 

I think we should've scored more than 45 on that defense. 

 

MRunner73

January 1st, 2023 at 7:16 PM ^

Those are good points. Maybe JJ sits in Jim's office and says you have to open the play book up and let me do my thing. JJ can be a Max Duggan type QB. There is high risk and high reward with that. JJ didn't use his feet at all in the first half and could have but was advised not to (guessing). We don't want to see JJ get injured before Big-10 conference games start next season with daring run plays but he can do a lot more. JJ won't be anything like Denard was but he is smart and will mature enough to know to run or pass. He's already a great scrambler.

Something's amiss with CJ Stokes and Dunlap at RB. My guess is they have not practiced well or they would have seen more game action. Have to wonder what happened to what was a stacked RB room early in the season.

WR is going to be a weakness unless one or two of these newer guys emerge.

Lots to think about during this off season.

KingCarr

January 1st, 2023 at 8:23 PM ^

Point 2 is the correct answer.  

Jim will have to sacrifice his run game to get this team balanced.  God love Jim but it is really hard to ground and pound your way to a NC.  

Jim has Bo's problem, just not diverse enough on offense.  Moeller and Carr enhanced the offense and got Michigan a NC and more bowl wins. 

1VaBlue1

January 2nd, 2023 at 8:37 AM ^

Points 1, 2, 3 all lead to the same thing - better offensive coaching is needed.  Sherrone Moore is great, what he's done with the OL is amaizing.  But he's a run oriented coach and doesn't really get the passing game.  Same with Weiss, he's always been a run coach, and has proven to forget about about players and plays, and shows a tendency to adjust things too late.  Against TCU, he only used Edwards as an inside runner.  Never tried to get him outside (what, 3 rushes outside the OTs?), and flat out refused to send him out against big, slow, LB'rs.  I'm pretty sure the QB run game was nerfed by decree from Harbaugh in a form of arrogant underestimation, which is something we've seen from him through the years via generic game plans.

I'd be in favor of replacing Weiss, but I don't see that happening unless he goes somewhere on his own accord.  The more realistic option is that JH hires someone to replace Gattis.  Turrible OC, but Gattis knew how to layer routes, coach WRs, and come up with imaginative read option plays.  What we have today are simplistic and redundant by comparison.  I know everyone loves Bellamy, but I don't see him getting it done.

pescadero

January 2nd, 2023 at 7:11 AM ^

"JJ McCarthy had a better sophomore year than Andrew Luck, "

 

Huh? 

Luck had a better completion %, completed way more passes, had way more yards, averaged more yards per attempt, had way more toucdowns, and a higher QB rating.

 

The only stat JJ was better on was interceptions... And that was only 5 vs. 8, but in 50 less attempts with 10 less touchdowns.

BananaRepublic

January 1st, 2023 at 6:40 PM ^

The national championship. We win that game 8 times out of 10. Had a bad night, easily could have had a good or average night and won.  We blew out a team that had a field goal to beat Georgia. We’re in the right spot to win. Anyone saying we need some huge dramatic change is an idiot

Eng1980

January 1st, 2023 at 10:13 PM ^

3 turnovers by a team that average 0.5 turnovers/game.  This TCU game was an anomaly.  I am not sure how we replace Schoonmaker's ability to block and catch.  The TCU linebackers did nothing special and Michigan failed to pick them up on a recurring basis.  It will take someone more knowledgeable than me to explain how that happened.

Blinkin

January 1st, 2023 at 6:49 PM ^

THANK YOU. Both games were crazy close. We blew out the team that nearly beat Georgia. "Any given Saturday" we are capable of hanging with or beating other playoff caliber teams. But they're also capable of beating us, which is how it goes sometimes. 

Realistically, all you can do is get to the point where you're a regular playoff participant, then get the right matchup.  Luckily based on the projected roster for next year, we're in a very good place to roll those dice again. 

Dunder

January 1st, 2023 at 8:16 PM ^

Seems like this is the answer to 'what was this year's ceiling' - and yep, they gave it away. 

What worries me about the 'program ceiling' is this year may have been it if the apparent unwillingness to compete at the top level of NIL compensation is real. That means more sub standard recruiting classes.  If they want the ceiling to sustain at the level it was this season, then get the money/NIL approach solved and competitive. Prove it by getting Davis and a bevy of top level recruits for next season in the class before May. 

ERdocLSA2004

January 1st, 2023 at 9:15 PM ^

This is exactly why we have hit our ceiling.  Yup, we win that game 8/10 times.  The trouble is a team like that TCU wont make the final 4 much.  They made the playoff on a down year.  USC, LSU, and TCU are all in their first year with their coaches, all had great years, and all of them are getting much better recruits.  Couple that with Notre Dame still finding their identity, bama not making the playoff for the first time ever, and the fact that we will have to play a team of 5 stars every year for our last game of the season, statistically speaking our chances of doing better than we did this year are almost zero. 

vablue

January 1st, 2023 at 7:14 PM ^

That is not a realistic ceiling.  One team in the history of college football has done it.  A super high realistic expectation for a dominant program is one national championship a decade and winning the Big Ten 5 times a decade.  If you do that, you are a dominant program.

MRunner73

January 1st, 2023 at 7:32 PM ^

Michigan unlike Alabama or Ohio State doesn't cheat. Point being, the Michigan way is like you say, 5 conference titles and on Natty per decade as a ceiling.

The NIL system probably won't allow 'Bama to be as dominant and same true for the Buckeyes. There will be too much parity going forward. It will resemble what college basketball is like today. The 5 star players will have more options to choose.

RontBlue

January 1st, 2023 at 10:31 PM ^

I agree with you, it all comes down to how we define realistic.

Yesterday I gave Michigan a good probability of winning it all, and after watching the close Georgia - OSU game I really think they could have done it this year. I expect them to be better than this year next year, so why not repeat? That is basically my reasoning for consecutive being realistic.

It's obviously not what happened, and it will never be the expected outcome, but as a ceiling it's a yes for me. 

ToledoWolverine

January 1st, 2023 at 6:41 PM ^

With a 12 team playoff we should be able to get hot once every 10-15 years and win the whole thing. I don’t think any team should expect much more than that either. The talent is going to get spread around a lot more. NFL light, which is kind of sad, but here we are.

edit: to be clear, from what I have seen of this college football season I think Michigan is the best team and has the best win of the season outside of TCU potentially beating Georgia. I am not at all down on the program, we need tweaks and slight adjustments, not large scale change.

91wolverine

January 1st, 2023 at 6:47 PM ^

Are you guys all crazy? I’m as pessimistic as they get but my goodness, this team was fantastic this year. Look at all the bullshit mistakes that happened yesterday and still had a chance to not tie the game but win the game had we jolted down and scored. Seriously our program is fine. We lost to a really good team. We should’ve won and prolly could beat Georgia as well. That’s the ceiling. We’re not a cut below anyone. Back to back big ten champs and back to back playoff appearances where we were the Clear top two teams. Was this our best chance to win? Who knows but yea next years team… 

Monkey House

January 1st, 2023 at 6:47 PM ^

I think this will be a top 4 team all of next year BUT I think for 2 straight years the oline was really good but not the best in the country. The lack of 5* is a problem. I know some of u love the whole 3* are just as good crap but the fact is we need more 5* players.

M-Dog

January 2nd, 2023 at 6:13 AM ^

Especially at receiver.  Teams need to be scared to death to try to do what TCU did and constantly run blitz their LBs and secondary to stop the run.

We have the 5* QB and the 5* RB, now we need some 5* WRs to go with it.

No team can expect to win a National Championship in modern college football by running the ball 65% of the time in the playoff.

Sllepy81

January 1st, 2023 at 6:49 PM ^

It's a game that bad luck or good luck change the season. Georgia should've lost and been sitting at home, they got lucky, might be champions again. Tcu got lucky to. Osu and us had bad luck. Both us or osu were 1 play from going for the title. Who knows what next year might bring. There's no ceiling in college football especially with transfers. Look at msu last year, a transfer made them winners. 

BlueMk1690

January 1st, 2023 at 6:51 PM ^

I would worry less about 'program ceiling' and more about executing on the day. If Michigan had executed last night at the level of some of the best games in the regular season, they win by 2 scores or more. But there were some underwhelming games during the season, too, and last night was more like those games, but with an opponent far more capable at exploiting those weaknesses.

Now, OSU hung very closely with Georgia, in fact one might say they probably deserved to win that game. We hung with OSU and did beat them because we out-executed them that day.

It seems clear to me that Michigan could very well have won the national championship this year if they had pulled out two more top performances when it mattered the most.

So the ceiling is basically determined by Michigan's ability to execute reliably at the same high level not just 1 or 2 or 3 games but in all the key games. I think that's one of the hardest things to learn for players, and what truly sets a Bama or Georgia or a Clemson in its heyday aside from teams 'almost there'. It's hard in college because players change all the time, but that's why it's important the players who've been with the program for 2-3 years pass down that expectation and culture down to the new kids. That's what you mean when you say a team needs to learn how to win.

If Michigan can take that step, that one step more, then the ceiling is the national title.

 

JacquesStrappe

January 2nd, 2023 at 4:51 PM ^

^Exactly this—consistent execution and focus whether favored or underdogs. No place for arrogance or entitlement because we are Michigan. Also, as I have said many times before the game style that wins national championships is not the one that wins Big Ten championships. Need to be as dedicated to passing and with as sophisticated scheme as you do for running the ball. The national championship teams do both equally well and at committed to both. Balance in all things.

jmblue

January 1st, 2023 at 6:55 PM ^

If you can make the playoff, you've got at least a puncher's chance at the national title.  We've done it twice in a row, so it doesn't seem like a fluke, especially since we did it with two different starting quarterbacks.  With JJ back next year, we should have a solid shot at a third trip. 

Mgoblue0205

January 1st, 2023 at 6:56 PM ^

Playoff win at the very least, NC title at the most. IMO, with Mccarthy at QB and assuming the running game stays good/great....The only thing missing is opening up the playbook/being a more creative passing offense. Which I expect to see along with JJ getting better. Defensively, idk what Minter was doing against TCU....But i'm not going to ignore the fact that his defenses shut every other offense down they faced. The only thing that concerns me a little is honestly recruiting. I would've thought Harbaugh would land a better class after 2 straight league titles. I know we've done well in the portal but still.