OT: Wimbledon to bar Russians and Belarusians from competing
I'm not sure how I feel about this.
“In the circumstances of such unjustified and unprecedented military aggression, it would be unacceptable for the Russian regime to derive any benefits from the involvement of Russian or Belarusian players with The Championships.”
I get that organizations are trying to make a moral statement with actions like these, but still...
Now, should the NHL decide to bar Russians from participating in the Stanley Cup playoffs...
April 20th, 2022 at 11:43 AM ^
Now, should the NHL decide to bar Russians from participating in the Stanley Cup playoffs
Yes.
There's certainly precedent for this if by way of comparison the contemporary standard for employment these days is an email or tweet from 10 years ago (which may or may not actually be objectionable) can resurface and tank one's job and/or life.
Especially when you see people like Ovie saying stupid shit like Russia's unprovoked attack on Ukraine is a "hard situation".
April 20th, 2022 at 11:52 AM ^
As awful as that is, he literally can’t say anything else without putting his or his family’s safety at risk.
April 20th, 2022 at 12:01 PM ^
Yeah, I see your point. Ovie's safety >>> this person's life and safety:
April 20th, 2022 at 12:40 PM ^
I see your point, too. But this isn't the concern for Ovie, or any other Russian trying to make a living outside of Russia. I'm sure Ovie is far more concerned about his family in Russia than he is for some random stranger - as you would be, also.
Seriously - if your sister lived in Russia, would you risk her life to throw nice words at some random person in Ukraine?
April 20th, 2022 at 12:46 PM ^
Got it, but does he still need to have vlady's pic highlighted on his instagram account??? Answer is fuck no!
Wait, whut? I don't have any fancy Instagram account, or twitter - does he really have Putin highlighted? Dude, that's fucked up...
My original point stands - I don't know his circumstances or how his family is being treated. But he surely doesn't have to highlight a psychopath!
I’m not saying he made the right choice. Morally, it’s the wrong choice. Sitting here in front of the computer it’s easy for me to say I’d make a different choice from him.
I do understand why he might make the decision he did and don’t think he’s hugely evil for not taking a largely symbolic stand at great personal risk.
That being said, the Putin buddy buddy stuff? Yeah that’s very bad.
I mean that's his problem. Everyone, including Ovi, knew what Putin was about long before the invasion of Ukraine, so if he wanted to be buddies with Putin then its time to suffer the consequences. Next time don't cozy up to fascist dictators.
Sorry but tell that to the thousands of Uranian men, women and children Russia has killed. Send every Russian who is not a US citizen back home until this unprovoked war ends, and not let them return until Russia leaves Ukraine and has paid for reparations.
Ditto if you are from Belarus.
Send everyone from a country back home because of the actions of the person who is controlling their home country? Not sure you actually thought that through.
What year did Putin try to join NATO and was denied?
Not sure what your point is.
I'm not being sarcastic or critical. Just asking for an explanation of what you are saying.
Using your logic,I would surmise that you would not do anything to seize the assets of oligarchs or prevent Russians and those from Belarus from playing at Wimbledon So far, the messages the world is sending are falling on deaf ears. Why should a Russian in the US on a visa be allowed to stay?
You do realize that when countries do things that are very inconsistent with US policy, we send a set of embassy people from the offending country home. No new ground is being paved here. I'm just suggesting that the set should be made larger.
April 20th, 2022 at 10:09 PM ^
I'm not the person you are questioning, but I have to respond here.
I would surmise that you would not do anything to seize the assets of oligarchs
I don't see anything in his post that would suggest anything of the sort. This is a dishonest argument tactic.
Why should a Russian in the US on a visa be allowed to stay?
Because they are fucking human beings. Many of them probably come here to make their lives better, you know, like the American dream. Some of them are kids. The vast majority of them have as much say over this war as you or I do. I was outraged when Trump introduced his Muslim ban because we are essentially assuming that all Muslims are terrorists or terrorist sympathizers. And I'm just as outraged at suggestions that we punish all Russians and kick them out of the country just because they are Russians. If you want to say Oligarchs can't come here and/or any here on visas should be kicked out, that's one thing. But a blanket policy of kicking out all Russian citizens is just...holy shit.
You do realize that when countries do things that are very inconsistent with US policy, we send a set of embassy people from the offending country home.
You do realize that embassy staff officially represent their government's policies, right? They are an extension of their government. Citizens of that country living abroad are not. They do not make their government's policies. They do not advocate their government's policies.
I'm just suggesting that the set should be made larger.
This debate has gone from the question of whether Russian athletes should be barred from Wimbledon to suggestions that all Russian citizens here should be kicked out.
People have lost their fucking minds, but I'll make a deal. We can bar the Russian athletes but please leave the immigrants alone.
Maybe instead we should put them in a central location with other Russians. That way they won't be able to spy for Putin, but we can keep an eye on them. That's definitely the ticket.
Send every Russian who is not a US citizen back home until this unprovoked war ends
That's fucked up. I have an old Russian lady living down the road from me. She's as responsible for Putin's behavior as you or I. But you want to send her back to suffer in Russia just because she's the same nationality as Putin?
Have we lost our fucking minds?
April 21st, 2022 at 12:56 PM ^
Read it again!
"Send every Russian who is not a US citizen back home until this unprovoked war ends,"
Read my comment again. I never said she is a US citizen. She’s not. And so she would be sent back under this batshit crazy policy.
And regardless of citizenship, I don’t think we want to send all people living here back home because of their nationality.
People have really lost their fucking minds. Who/what have we become?
As many of have stated, you can’t just send people back to Russia because they’re not a US citizen. Many of them are Russian exiles. But you can ban Russian citizens that are athletes in the US from participation selectively. Like if they openly support Putin in their Instagram account and are the founder of a pro Putin election movement. Like Ovi.
April 20th, 2022 at 12:14 PM ^
Ovechkin's instagram profile picture is still of he and Putin. The Capitals have also done everything in their power to insulate him by barring any media from asking him about Ukraine, the Russian invasion and Putin.
On the flip side though, how would a ban of NHL players be viewed for players like Artemi Panarin, who while hasn't said anything about Ukraine or the Russian invasion but has said very disparaging things about Putin in the recent past?
April 20th, 2022 at 12:41 PM ^
IDK, but I seem to remember a rallying cry from the summer of 2020 was "silence is violence".
Just ban the ones openly supporting Putin, a mass murderer, in their Instagram accounts.
FUCK OVIE!!!
April 20th, 2022 at 11:48 AM ^
These players have absolutely nothing to do with the invasion or their government. The vast majority don't even in live in Russia. This is just as bad as banning Djokovic from the AO due to their ridiculous vaccine mandate. (Edit - the vaccine mandate was Australia's and not the AO which is different from this situation where the ban is coming from the tournament).
April 20th, 2022 at 11:59 AM ^
Nor did the thousands of dead Ukrainians.
April 20th, 2022 at 12:13 PM ^
I'm a Djoker fan, but he made a choice. That choice had consequences. He knew those consequences. It was his own fault.
What choice did these Russian and Belarusian players make to warrant this ban?
April 20th, 2022 at 12:24 PM ^
I'd say you lack a sense of proportion. I also think I know something about your TV viewing habits.
The first part of your statement makes sense. The Djokovic thing is completely unrelated and doesn't compare at all.
I don't think this is about punishing the athletes. It's about sending a message to Russia, and not letting their networks show Wimbledon and focus on their athletes winning as if nothing was happening. The more we can do to make sure the Russian people recognize what's happening -- I have Russian friends, and their access to non-Kremlin-controlled media is so slim they honestly still believe they're liberating Ukraine from "fascists" -- the better. I don't think we should allow Putin and Russia at large any sense of "normalcy" -- including watching Medvedev dominate at Wimbledon -- until this tragedy is over.
April 20th, 2022 at 11:57 AM ^
Good for England, Boris Johnson, Wimbledon and taking a consistent stand against Putin and Russia. Yes it is more symbolic. These players, many who denounce Putin's actions can become US, Canadian or Brit citizens and continue to have houses in Florida and make their millions.
Wimbledon did not allow German or Japanese participants during and after WW2.
When Alexander Ovechkin dons a Caps jersey he represents Washington and doesn't represent Russia.
April 20th, 2022 at 12:01 PM ^
Oh I wish I had read your comment before I posted mine.
Apologies everyone, Darker Blue is a bozo
April 20th, 2022 at 12:07 PM ^
Wimbledon did not allow German or Japanese participants during and after WW2.
You know what we did to the Japanese living in the USA during WW2, right? Just because something was done in the past does not make it right today.
These players, many who denounce Putin's actions can become US, Canadian or Brit citizens and continue to have houses in Florida and make their millions.
So denouncing Putin is not enough? They need to leave their homes, families and essentially renounce their country as well?
April 20th, 2022 at 12:25 PM ^
My parents made a tough decision to come to this country to live the American Dream leaving behind family. Yes at some point you make a choice to defend your government /way of life or you move on if you are lucky enough to be able to do so.
America's treatment of Japanese American CITIZENS in internment camp was wrong and awful.
The point made was that this is not the first time the All England Tennis Club has done this. I think the Russian players will be able to survive just fine if they choose to stay as Russian citizens.
April 20th, 2022 at 12:35 PM ^
I know what you are saying and I respect your opinion, though I happen to disagree with it.
Your parents made a choice, and I'm happy it worked out for them. But should someone be forced to make that choice? Told that they can't participate at the highest levels of their profession if they do not make that choice? Expose family members who are left behind to potential reprisals if they do make that choice?
This is a difficult topic and I see many thoughtful answers on both sides here.
They lived under Stalin (who Putin most resembles) and his puppets. In 1956, the people of Hungary revolted with Molotov cocktails against Soviet tanks while the Voice of America said we are coming to help (and never did) but during a months span 1000's of people could make a brave decision and did ( they lived James Michener's, The Bridge at Andau).
There was no "highest level of profession" to choose.. that was decided by a state run communist government. No one forced them to leave and their families did not suffer reprisals, just economic and political lack of opportunities.
The fate of a handful of millionaire tennis stars who miss a couple tournaments, who have homes/train in Florida, is not a deep humanitarian concern. Ironically, arguably the greatest tennis player ever, Martina Navratilova, took a bigger risk to become an American citizen, and later had dual citizenship with her native Czechoslovakia, once they escaped Russian puppet control and propaganda.
Connecting the current economic sanctions impacting Russian citizen pro athletes making money off of countries in the West with the United States’ WW2 imprisonment of American citizens of Japanese ancestry doesn’t make much sense. The situations, for many reasons, are not comparable.
The point was about the precedent set by Wimbledon during WW2. Many precedents were set during WW2. It does not make it *right*.
I pretty much explicitly said this. You chose to interpret my comment as comparing the current sanctions to imprisonment of people of Japanese ancestry. 🤷♂️
We have no high horse when it comes to how we treated Japanese Americans during WWII.
Seems unfair to a player like Medvedev. I could be wrong but I thought he denounced the invasion or made some statement about supporting piece. It's human nature to have pride in your country. The US has many black marks but we still support our country and feel patriotism. A Russian player could be totally opposed to Putin's decision but will be penalized simply because they were born in Russia. Yeah, I'm not a fan of such logic.
Olympics is different. That is punishing the country. Professional tennis? That's punishing the player.
Medvedev made an initial flippant statement in Feb that suggested Ukraine just give in, which parroted Russian propaganda, but he quickly replaced it with a big PR splash about being anti war. He’s never come out against Russia or Putin for obvious reasons but I don’t buy the PR BS.
April 20th, 2022 at 11:59 AM ^
Wait, what? No Anna Kournikova? I'm not watching!....
April 20th, 2022 at 12:00 PM ^
I don't understand what this does for the people of Ukraine?
April 20th, 2022 at 12:03 PM ^
I have mixed feelings about it, but this and other responses signal to Putin that he cannot do what he's done without suffering consequences. He cares about his country's performance in sports, and now his athletes won't be able to compete on one of the world's biggest stages. This is a minor measure but not without meaning.
To me, it would be one of many ways of isolating Russia and letting them know they are not welcome back into the world community until they, at a minimum, withdraw and pay for rebuilding Ukraine.
Taken as just one symbolic act it might not make a lot of sense. But as a broader program of censure I don't mind it. At some point the Russian people have to decide whether they want a hateful dictator to prevent them from being in a civilized global society.
April 20th, 2022 at 12:03 PM ^
I have to say that I don't agree with this decision.
Putin's unprovoked attack on Ukraine should be condemned. The crimes that are being committed in Ukraine should be condemned and punished when the time comes.
But Wimbledon is punishing Russians not for their support of Putin or the war in Ukraine but instead just because they are ... Russian.
I don't even know what the goal of this action would be. Is it just to punish people because they were born Russian? I certainly hope not. Are they trying to get people to oppose Putin by punishing them? If so, this will backfire miserably and have the opposite effect. 'Nothing brings a nation together like the feeling that everyone is against it' (couldn't help stealing this quote from Gospodinov's Physics of Sorrow. Great book. Highly recommended.).
Unfortunately, this is just one of a long list of cases where Russians have been banned from performing just by virtue of being born Russian. A Russian pianist who condemned the war had his shows cancelled in Canada. A Russian cellist who condemned the war had her performances cancelled in Switzerland. The Cardiff Philharmonic Orchestra cut Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture from it's performance because Tchaikovsky was...wait for it...Russian. The dude died almost 130 years ago. What the fuck does he have to do with the war in Ukraine?
Not only do these symbolic acts do nothing to help the people of Ukraine, but they will also drive people to double-down on support for Putin.
April 20th, 2022 at 12:34 PM ^
Shortly after the start of the war, one of my Pastor's made a plea to the congregation:
"You can't do everything. Don't do nothing. Do something."
This is the something Wimbledon can do.
April 20th, 2022 at 12:37 PM ^
Ok, but I'm asking to what effect? And also whether it is moral/ethical/whatever to ban someone just because they happened to be born Russian?
April 20th, 2022 at 12:56 PM ^
The response from the Russian Gov't posted by another poster below show it does have an affect at the intended level.
I'm not sure turning this into a moral/ethical debate is a worthwhile effort given the atrocities we have seen. Tennis is sport. Yes, the players will lose pay and have a short window to compete, but what they will experience in no way registers on the scale of the millions of lives being impacted in Ukraine.
Sometimes, being the voice for the "other side of the story" really isn't being thoughtful, it's just being contrarian for...reasons???
Sorry, but you brought up your pastor's statement. If he (and therefore you) wasn't speaking from a moral/ethical position, then what was the basis for her/his comment?
If you read my original comment, you would see that I am not talking about the individual players only, but the overall effect that policies like this will have. In the end, think this is going to be counterproductive by driving people into the arms of Putin, not the opposite. There is valid reason to believe this. Global opinion polls and other studies consistently show that people harden their support for the regime/leader/country when they are exposed to sanctions, financial or otherwise.
I'm sorry if you think I am just being "contrarian for...reasons". I laid out a logically valid argument that you seem to disagree with but do not want to address. That's fine, though I would prefer if you disagreed without attacking my motivations.