OT: Transgender athletes and fairness

Submitted by StephenRKass on January 11th, 2022 at 11:35 AM

I just read a fascinating column on fairness in female sports. Specifically, Lia Thomas is a swimmer for U Penn who is transitioning from male to female. She was an all-Ivy swimmer on the men's team before transitioning. Since the transition, she has

"basically obliterated the competition, smashing pool and meet records. Her times compare favorably not only with the best current female collegiate swimmers in the country but with the best American female swimmers ever."

The column is an interesting piece looking at the conflict between trans rights and women's rights. I will say upfront, I don't know the answers, but it appears to be troubling.

LINK:  Transgender rights and fair play

I am the picture of privilege: a successful white male. As such, anything I have an opinion on is automatically suspect. However, I'd love to hear from female athletes at Michigan as to their thoughts on this.

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blue in dc

January 11th, 2022 at 11:49 AM ^

It is a shame that has to be the starting assumption (I am not disputing the validity of the assumption, just noting it is a shame).

This is clearly sports related.   It is just a really difficult question.   Almost all tough policy questions involve balancing competing rights.   No matter the choice, someone’s rights are diminished.   If a group like this that has a strong common bond and interest can’t have reasonable discussions on an issue like this, who can?    If we can’t even have discussions, how can we expect to make progress?

 

Joined: 01/22/2011

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StephenRKass

January 11th, 2022 at 12:38 PM ^

Ok, that's a fair question. So here's an answer.

  1. Honestly, I'd much rather see some real info on what's happening with Jim Harbaugh. But I am tired of mere speculation, and there isn't a lot happening today with recruiting. The basketball team has Covid and is really struggling. I haven't heard anything about baseball yet. The hockey team might be great, but it seems to really depend on how much of the team is gone for junior nationals or the Olympics or whatever. 
  2. But yes, I think this topic is about sports, is a critical topic, and is something there needs to be real discussion on. The problem is that I don't think there is any way for women's rights and transgender rights to BOTH be completely happy.
  3. I'm kinda slightly irritated with endless one line posts that say "this will end well" or "go to Bolivia" or "I'm here for the negbang/posbang!" or "mods, lock the thread." Cumong. We should be able to have some kind of debate and discussion on a board with a significant number of Michigan grads. My skin is thick enough to deal with it if people want to rip on me. Smh. Who cares . . . the important thing is to think about and hash out important issues.
  4. I realize that Olympic sports and women's sports are only a tertiary interest of this board. To be totally honest, as said in point 1, I'd rather discuss the football team and other competitive men's sports at Michigan. BUT . . . I still think this is a very important, and to me, troubling, issue, and neither the NCAA nor universities nor society in general know what to do that is "fair."

tl;dr. So yes, I do think this is an appropriate post for MgoBlog!

Joined: 07/15/2008

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crg

January 11th, 2022 at 12:51 PM ^

I feel the best way to address this is to eliminate division of sports by gender/sex.  It is absolutely true that the average biological male has notable physical advantages over the average biological female (depending on age as well).  Yet sports doesn't always deal in "average".  I have seen women who are hulking behemoths that could physically dominate/intimidate the "average" male (and likewise males who have physical traits that are less conducive to many sports than the "average" female).  Instead of trying to define (and then verify) what a gender classification should be, just use different metrics.  It could be something as simple as weight classes seen in wrestling, to a more comprehensive system of physical measurables.

The transgender issue is not the impetus for this either - these trends have been in progress for decades now w.r.t. female/male athletes wanting to compete in the alternate division (some with notable success).

Joined: 04/30/2015

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gruden

January 11th, 2022 at 1:00 PM ^

That won't work either.  Check out this article (pertinent for the whole thread):

https://quillette.com/2021/12/11/male-and-female-athletic-performance/

On average, males can move faster, jump further, throw longer, and lift heavier objects than females, and this creates large performance gaps between males and females in almost all sports. Consequently, when comparing like-for-like athletes (such as male and female elite athletes, or male and female school-level athletes), male records and performances are better than those of females. The smallest performance gaps are evident in sports that require simple manoeuvres with weighted lower-body input, such as running, where females have higher relative (but not absolute) muscle mass. The involvement of upper body muscle mass, and/or complex sports that combine many different functional outputs, yields performance gaps that extend to 30 to 65 percent in weightlifting disciplines and 120 percent in the force applied in a rugby scrum.

An analysis of performance in weightlifting enables comparison between weight-matched (and thus, in many instances, approximately height-matched) males and females. Comparing 2010–2021 world-record lifts by body weight across males and females in weight-restricted categories demonstrates that males are around 30 percent stronger than females of the same size. In a specific example, the current 55kg male record holder, who is 1.52m tall, lifts 29.5 percent more than the current 55kg female record holder, also 1.52m tall. This gap at equivalent body weight and height is, in part, explained by differential body composition where, compared with female total mass, a larger proportion of male total mass is muscle.

Men and women are built differently.  Taking estrogen for a year doesn't undo the secondary gender differences in a biological male.

Joined: 04/29/2016

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StephenRKass

January 11th, 2022 at 2:23 PM ^

WOW!! Huge thanks to Gruden.

This is an extremely informative article. I greatly appreciate the information on the inherent differences between men and women not only from birth, but in utero. I also found fascinated that only .02% of the population have any issues with genitalia that make them non-conforming to standard patterns.

I hope more studies will be done. Great thing for the UofM Medical School to do. But if the statistics presented in this article are correct, I just see no fair way for trans athletes going from male to female to fairly compete with females. This is what I suspected, but did not know conclusively. And this is just one study:  this information absolutely has to be confirmed by others.

For years, with different discussions on the topic of equality in the news, I have quietly and secretly thought, just eliminate all male/female divisions, and see what that does to women's sports. I think this study answers that question. It won't work.

Now, societally, I think men and women can largely "compete" fairly in fields or areas not heavily dependent on physical strength, size, etc. For instance, in my own family, my daughter served in the Navy. She was an Aegis Computer Network Technician on a Destroyer. (This means that she was responsible to maintain the entire weapons systems computer network.) The nature of her work did not depend on her physical strength . . . although she did body building, and was the fitness coordinator on the ship. But largely, working with maintaining and repairing and updating a computer network was an area where biological differences between men and women just doesn't matter. A simple 50 or 100 years ago on a ship, almost all of the tasks on a ship required a lot more brute strength or agility, and so there weren't as many roles for women, practically.

As an aside, I have to say it was incredible this thread survived, and the intelligent discourse from many. Thanks to all who chipped in.

Joined: 07/15/2008

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Cmknepfl

January 11th, 2022 at 2:51 PM ^

I think it’s because most people actually agree on this.  I think the side of this perspective that it’s “discrimination” to say it’s unfair to women to have a biological man compete if against women is a more fringe group than on many other polarizing topics.  
 

I think of myself progressive and yet think it’s obvious that men and women are different, the science is in, and therefore it’s just not going to be fair to have biological men competing against women, albeit with hormone therapy.

 

(Testosterone In vitro is what has the largest effects) 

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Desert Wolverine

January 11th, 2022 at 1:07 PM ^

Eliminate divisions and you effectively end run Title IX out the door.  I am a big supporter of women's sports.  I spent a great deal of time building up a fastpitch league to broaden the availability of competitive play outside of the club system here in Arizona.  That said, from a physical perspective women's teams in most sports are, on a level of competitiveness only, one level below men's.  By this I mean the top 20 men's college teams  would have massively winning records playing against the WNBA, and I would venture the top High School men's teams would do the same against NCAAW.  When someone asked Serena Williams how she would fare against the top men's players, her reaction was one of Oh, hell no!.  Back in the day someone asked McEnroe whether Navratilova could beat him, and he said it wouldn't be worth his time as it would be 6-Love,6-Love, and she concurred.  Even the King-Riggs match which was highly competitive was a travesty as you had a 50 something huckster playing the top woman of the day.

All this is not to deprecate women's sports.  But, the physicality differences of men and women who are at equivalent levels of their sport are so great as to make mixed play destructive.

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JFW

January 11th, 2022 at 1:22 PM ^

I think it depends on the sport and the age. 

I did Judo for years and while I trained with women their was (not sure about now) sex differentiated competition. Typically they had a problem with men unless the technique difference was huge. 

I help coach middle school wresting and I've seen girls do well; with the caveat it's mainly lighter weights and they do have a physical disadvantage. It gets harder for them as they go into higher weight classes and as they age and puberty takes a firmer hold. 

My daughter played Volleyball for years and did *not* like playing with the boys because she felt the physicality was waaaaaay too much for the girls team. 

I realize al this is ad hoc. 

What isn't is the fact that men have real physical advantages over women. There is some overlap in that venn diagram but it's not huge. Sexual dimorphism is a thing and even tends to assert itself over hormone therapy if it's post puberty. 

Look at stuff like this: 

Record Book | Girls Track & Field | MHSAA Sports

Record Book | Boys Track & Field | MHSAA Sports.

I honestly don't know what to do with MTF trans athletes. I want to be fair. I love athletic competition for kids. But from what I've read so far it doesn't sound like a great idea if you are a girl who wants to compete on an even playing field. The only two caveats to that would be pre-puberty athletics (I've seen elementary girl wrestlers clean up with greater technique and coordination), and possibly middle school/HS athletics if the MTF athlete has been on puberty blockers since before puberty. 

I realize this is yet another cross to bear if you are a trans person. And I realize that sucks. But there are other things that person can do. Sports are just one form of expression. Not the only one. We have limits for a reason. If a kid can't make a certain weight we don't let him wrestle. If a kid couldn't make the pop warner weight we didn't let them play. I've stopped impromptu matches between kids if one is too damned big or the other too damned small because I don't want to see someone get hurt. 

So, for going MTF; I wouldn't want them in sports that have traditionally been segregated by gender due to performance concerns: weight lifting; track; basketball; some State's wrestling programs; any combat sport with striking. For sports already co-ed (like wresting) have at it. You aren't creating a competitive advantage that isn't already there. And for FTM have at it. Going in with the disadvantage you just risk losing, not hurting someone else or taking an opportunity from them due to biology. 

My $0.02

 

 

 

Joined: 10/20/2010

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WindyCityBlue

January 11th, 2022 at 2:12 PM ^

I appreciate the candid and honest reply (because I thought for sure you'd just ignore me).  And while I was not someone who posted a "this will end well" post, I thought for sure it would really not end up well.  I'm pleasantly surprised that it's been mostly civil so far. 

But cumong!  While this topic is about sports, it has nothing to do with Michigan sports, not even close.  Maybe OT season is over, so it open season I guess.  With that, the main crux of this topic is highly steeped in politics, which is a no-no for this blog.  I mean, we (as a blog) can barely get along regarding COVID.  COVID is far more relevant to Michigan sports when considering impact to schedules and stadium seating, yet 99% of those posts are removed.

I do appreciate your effort to post an interesting topic to the board here (because we need something to distract us from the endless Harbaugh speculation).  I do think you posted it in good faith, but I can't believe you posted it thinking it was appropriate for this board when considering your experience here.

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trueblueintexas

January 11th, 2022 at 3:04 PM ^

This mentality wedges a divide with no path to civility other than ignoring each other, which isn't really civility, it's tenuously existing.

I applaud the OP for making an attempt at a civil bridging of conversation. This thread proves, with the right people and attitude, it can be done. It also proves there is a percentage of the population which has no belief that we can co-exist with open differences. It's unfortunate this segment of the  population lets themselves be put in this corner, because interacting with civil minded people is fun. 

Yay OP! Fun!

Joined: 11/10/2008

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Mgoeffoff

January 11th, 2022 at 12:50 PM ^

BlueinDC...I would like to chat with you further in a way the board won't allow.  I am genuinely interested in your opinion because I know it's different from mine, you have a lot of information, and I want to understand the other side better.  It has nothing to do with this topic, but not sure how else to throw this out there.  Is there a way to trade some form of contact information without giving the rest of the board access?  I'm not a tech person and don't use any other social media.  Maybe a burner email account?  Apologize ahead of time if this solicitation is not allowed.  No pressure and feel free to disregard if not interested.

Joined: 01/08/2019

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ChuckieWoodson

January 11th, 2022 at 2:55 PM ^

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.  The tail should not wag the dog. 

I feel sympathy for and support transgender people - it has to be an difficult process both mentally and physically. To me, as long as you're a good member of society, nobody should care. 

However, when it comes to sports, in their hearts, they also have to know that it's not fair to the girls they are competing against.  So to take pride in beating biological females, in a female sport when they have a predisposed advantage is honestly very puzzling to me. 

Joined: 01/13/2012

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OlafThe5Star

January 11th, 2022 at 12:32 PM ^

Well, this topic has been up for an hour, and it could still easily go off the rails, but so far... it is sort of heartening to see so many "Listen, this is a very challenging topic with no clear answers... On the one hand... and on the other..."

I like the acknowledgment that it is indeed challenging. I have no idea what the "right" answer is here. But I think we get closer to the "best" answer when people are thoughtfully engaging on the valid concerns of both sides of this issue. 

I always find it easiest to put myself in different shoes... how would I feel if I had a trans daughter? Or how would I feel if my daughter got bumped off a team/lost a championship/etc when competing against a trans woman? Man, it really is a tough question. 

Joined: 06/15/2012

MGoPoints: 605

ThrowawayToTacopants

January 11th, 2022 at 12:58 PM ^

Actual transgender woman here. Created a throwaway account expecting to agree with you, though conversation has been only subtly invalidating so far, instead overt. This sort of conversation can often be triggering as hell, and I'm... cautiously optimistic.

My short perspective, because this is an exhausting topic from my end. Please don't take me as speaking for every trans person ever, or that I've produced an exhaustive/perfect take in the 50 minutes I've had to type this out:

  • The conversation almost never starts with people actually believing us when we say we're women. We're assumed to be delusional, and our perspectives are invalidated. Trans women are assumed to be better at everything, but you literally never hear about trans women when they lose. Very few conversations I've seen start with "trans women are just a different kind of woman."
  • The divide line for "woman" is way more vague than people often think (and also discounts non-binary people, but more on that later). Almost any primary or secondary sex characteristic you can think of to define a woman, I guarantee there are cisgender women out there who don't fit that mold. "Born without a penis" is not a guarantee of fairness.
  • We're often assumed to be the "foxes in the hen house," or transitioning in the name of winning. I have news on this front: It's a f***ton of work and mental load to transition. I'll let you know if I ever find a trans woman who admits on the side "Yeah I'm actually a man, I'm just doing it because I want to make it easier to win." On that note, some of the things we are often born with and cannot change are a detriment compared to cisgender women in sports, but I almost never see that brought up.
  • It's never about fairness. Yes, the divide line between men and women gets you a general concept of two fairly large groupings of people, but saying that it's infallibly fair is guaranteed to produce exceptions. If fairness is what you want, divide things up based on things that are measurable and are actually going to make it fair.
  • People discount what hormone therapy can do. I have nowhere near the recovery rate that I used to, I gain bad weight easily, and losing weight is really hard. Most of us have testosterone levels *below* those of cisgender women. Bottom surgery (for those who get it, like me) guarantees extremely low levels of testosterone.
  • Overtly transphobic takes on sports also tend to come from people who don't want kids to transition, either. It turns out that transitioning medically earlier erases a lot of the perceived advantages. We can't win in those cases: Can't transition while we're young, but also aren't allowed to just be ourselves once we're older.
  • "There should be a separate category" is a concept often thrown about. This is usually by cisgender people, or even by trans people who don't care about sports, or who maybe don't consider themselves to be on the gender binary to begin with, and don't care if they're invalidated as binary women. For those who do care, it would basically mean the end of any possibility that I could take part in sports again.
  • "They should be separated based on chromosomes." On top of not guaranteeing fairness, this also provides incredible logistical hurdles. Can you imagine a world where everyone has to publish their karyotype? Additionally, there are people who are intersex, whose chromosomes don't align with the gender they were assigned at birth.
  • Non-binary people are often excluded from these conversations, since the way we've always done it is to divide based on two categories that they don't fit into neatly.
  • Sports, at their core, are weird. Applying arbitrary rules to a bunch of humans in hopes that one will score higher within those boundaries than the others. Why are people willing to invalidate an actual human being's gender (or anything else) in the name of getting the highest score?

Joined: 01/11/2022

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Blue Indy

January 11th, 2022 at 1:28 PM ^

Logged in just to thank you for sharing your perspective, especially after you shared that these conversations can often be triggering for you. There's a lot we can do to educate ourselves about this topic and listening to actual trans women (and trans athletes) is a crucial part of that process. Thank you for your insight.

Joined: 08/25/2010

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GoingBlue

January 11th, 2022 at 2:09 PM ^

Great points raised, but all rules in sports are based on making the game fair. The questions is, "Is it fair to group x?". Is it fair to cis females to let a woman who went through puberty as a male, compete in their sport with them? I think the answer is no. 

I think "men's sports" should be changed to "Open leagues" where anyone can compete, and "women's sports" should have some rules about who can compete. Otherwise, cis women will have no where to go, much like trans men and women today. 

Joined: 01/04/2017

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Joby

January 11th, 2022 at 2:44 PM ^

Really appreciate your words and the risk you took to produce them. I thought the board did a decent job of having civil discussion in this thread, but when “within-the-group” voices like yours are included, topics like gender or racial equality can be discussed in a richer, more meaningful way.
 

But that also presents a huge burden to the “within-the-group” person, who may feel all the sting from others’ comments and can’t possibly respond to every misconception or unintended slight. That’s exhausting.

Joined: 10/19/2011

MGoPoints: -1328

ThrowawayToTacopants

January 11th, 2022 at 4:09 PM ^

I am going forward assuming you are referring to medical transition.

Myself, I'd give up so much to be able to go back and bonk kid version of myself on the head with a message telling her what she's experiencing, and how to treat it. I can't speak for every kid, obviously, but I have specific memories of feeling more associated with the "female puberty" than the "male puberty." (Intersex and hormone insensitivity caveats apply to these phrases, hence the quotes). Socially, I tended to associate more strongly with the girls as well, despite being raised in a way that encourages typically masculine interests.

I believe that if kids are insistent, consistent, and persistent about their gender, then yes, I believe it is a good idea. To my understanding, puberty blockers are a wonderful tool we have at our disposal to help the individual not go through the wrong puberty while they're figuring things out. If you've figured out you're transgender and realize you're going through the wrong puberty, that can be extremely distressing. Yes, some people do experience regret, but in my observations, the vast majority of them are regretful because they are in a transphobic environment (which is most of the world), rather than because it was wrong for them.

I should probably mention that surgery is generally not an option until you turn 18 regardless, and trans people tend to be understanding about waiting for that, if that's a thing they want (and not all do). The few exceptions to that have been medically transitioning since they were pretty little.

Socially? I don't see anything wrong with changing one's gender expression at any age. It allows people to be comfortable as themselves, and has the side effect of beginning to dismantle misogynistic/patriarchal standards. Emphasis on the word, "beginning."

I should also mention that some trans people can't or don't want to go on hormone therapy, and I support that as well. This leads to a lot of people responding with "but how will that fit into my current worldview of how gender works?" The answer is that it probably doesn't, and I believe it makes a lot more sense if you accept their reality first.  Then you can figure out how other less important things work around that, in a way that doesn't make them "others."

To reiterate: The trans and medical communities *do not* take transition lightly. The gatekeeping has relaxed over the last few decades, but there are still plenty of hurdles to go through before a medical transition takes place. There is also still so much stress and social stigma involved, that there is lots of information flowing to get the kids what they need through formal and informal channels, whether that is transitioning or not.

If you or somebody you know has a kid going through this, I strongly recommend finding a trans-friendly therapist to help the child work through things. They'll help the child figure out who they are, and get them the information they need about transition. A good therapist *won't* force the child one way or another, but rather give them unbiased information they need to move forward. I also understand PFLAG is a great resource for parents, though I haven't made use of it myself.

Joined: 01/11/2022

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StephenRKass

January 11th, 2022 at 4:29 PM ^

Major kudos to Throwaway to Tacopants for such a heartfelt post. Full disclosure:  I am mostly trying to honestly listen and to learn. I did not post this with an agenda or with an axe to grind. I spent an hour last week talking with the biologically female spouse in the now female to female marriage I officiated a year and a half ago, just to get a deeper understanding of the issues involved. My heart goes out to you. I have zero desire to be condescending or patronizing in any way.

Joined: 07/15/2008

MGoPoints: 23001

tubauberalles

January 11th, 2022 at 7:30 PM ^

I just want to thank you for taking the time and investing the emotional energy to share your perspective and make these points.  As a cisgender dad of a non-binary college freshman who's recently begun testosterone, I'm not at all expert and still very much on the learning path.  I sure don't have the answers, but your points above have helped me better understand that something that may seem "obvious" or "logical" may in fact be invalidating and not at all productive.  I do believe everyone should have the chance to compete and know that it's often much more about mental/emotional engagement than physical competition or prowess.

So, thank you.

Joined: 06/30/2008

MGoPoints: 3082

Qmatic

January 11th, 2022 at 11:38 AM ^

You SRK, are one of the few individuals I trust to post a topic like this and actually be looking for honest discussion. This is a new development in college athletics and it raises some differing views on how it should be applied. Hopefully an honest discussion can ensue; but I would be extremely surprised if it does.

Joined: 01/09/2013

MGoPoints: 32780

Lakeyale13

January 11th, 2022 at 11:50 AM ^

Just level the playing field.  Don’t have “mens sports” or “women’s sports”.  Just allow everyone…make, female, gay, straight, transgender, etc….to try out and let the best athletes compete.  If we are going to go down the road (not arguing if it is a great road to go down or not) that gender is fluid and malleable, then I don’t see a more equitable way to proceed. 

Joined: 11/16/2014

MGoPoints: 27225

outsidethebox

January 11th, 2022 at 12:11 PM ^

Or it can be discussed and some knowledge and understanding developed. I know that my pediatrician brother and pediatric nurse practitioner wife can instruct us, firsthand, regarding the variabilities of gender identification. The world is not as "black and white" as many believe it to be. There is always learning to be had and understanding to be developed. 

Joined: 01/23/2017

MGoPoints: 18816

rc15

January 11th, 2022 at 12:22 PM ^

Male/female & transgender shouldn't be used in the same category. There is a difference between sex vs gender.

Maybe part of the problem is historically calling it “men's sports” or “women’s sports”. It should really be "male sports" or "female sports" to keep everyone competing on a biological even playing field.

Gender is a spectrum, a lot of people identify as non-binary, so would that mean they couldn't compete is "men's" or "women's" sports?

Joined: 01/23/2015

MGoPoints: 12103

rc15

January 11th, 2022 at 1:00 PM ^

Sex assigned at birth by a doctor.

If you get to the level you're testing for steroid use in sports, then you can bother checking someone's genetics. Until then, it's such a small percentage of the population, and those people have been competing under their assigned sex forever without causing issues.

Joined: 01/23/2015

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