OT: Talking Cars Tuesday, Electric Addition
Borrowing Jeepin Ben's byline today. I've asked many questions on these threads over the past couple of years about electric cars. My husband and I finally got one. A Mini SE. Here's my brief review (this was my first time driving an electric car, btw):
We just moved back to the city (Chicago) so a small electric car seemed right for the time. The Mini ticked all the boxes except for range. But we figured with the way we drive, and since we're putting a charger in the garage, the range wouldn't be a deal breaker.
The car is super fun to drive. It's like a souped up golf cart with much better handling. The one pedal regenerative braking takes some getting used to but if I can learn how to drive a stick, I can learn how to drive with one pedal. We have a second car, a small SUV, so we probably won't drive the Mini in the snow -- it's really not geared towards that. But all in all, we're happy we finally bit the bullet. As my husband said after his first drive, "It feels like I'm driving the future."
we have a Tesla which my wife describes as "a $45,000 golf cart" which.......yeah. We've had it for about 18 months and the range anxiety isn't a factor because of a) how we drive it b) having another ICE car for the long trips. We did take it on a lengthier trip but haven't really had to make use of the supercharger network. I'd be curious to hear how you like it after 6 months; I find ours to be very fun to drive and there are some quirky differences some of which I like but some are sort of like Apple not having a backspace key - quirky but mildly annoying. Enjoy it in good health!
We had our 19 for about 4 years and even with COVID have 63K miles. Aside from tires & 2 air filter changes (and a blown motor that was 100% covered under warranty), have ha no maintenance costs and charge 95% at home @ $0.10/kWH (or about $2.60 per 100 miles).
Musk is a complete POS, but the car is absolutely incredible.
Why is Musk a complete POS?
because political views different than yours = POS regardless of how good a person they are
duh
The ironic part is that when Musk was voting for Obama, this guy above likely loved him.
I am a big fan of the concept of EV's as I believe they are significantly simpler in design than ICE vehicles and more efficient. But for me, they are not ready for primetime particularly if you live in climates that get really cold and you can lose a third of your range on a cold day. If the recent Toyota battery announcement turns out to be reality, I might be ready to switch. Then of course we need to get our electrical grid ready for the 21st century.
Chaco, your statement about range anxiety was an indictment of EV's, i.e., we take our ICE car on long trips.
One of the positives I see in EV's is the introduction of some quality cars coming out of Germany with very nice cabins.
August 1st, 2023 at 10:30 PM ^
Yeah - with extra time and planning you could easily do an 800 mile road trip but I opt for convenience on longer trips (ice) because I have that option.
Probably won't go electric until someone puts out something called the Boogaloo
If recent history holds, you may not want to be affiliated with anything called Boogaloo.
These are in development but they have a tendency for Breakin'.
I’m thinking about looking into the plug in hybrids whenever I get around to getting a new vehicle.
Just got back from driving from Northern Ohio (🤮) to Nashville and back and until electric can do that without extending that already long drive it’s a no from me. I spend a ton of time on weekends going to see family all over the US, and I typically drive.
Once they figure out how to charge the vehicle from 10% battery to 100% battery in 5-10 min then I’ll start looking at them more seriously. Until then my truck will do just fine
The only reason it makes sense for us now is because of city driving. Lots of short trips and stop-and-go driving. The range is about 110 miles and I probably do that in a week. Our SUV is a gas guzzler so this made sense.
yea we got something that had >250 range specifically so we could take a longer road trip with comfort. There are options out there, even for smaller cars, that have long range (like the Chevy Bolt)
I like the Chevy Bolt a lot. I read this is the last year they're making them. My husband preferred the Mini so that's where we landed.
GM recently announced that they changed their mind and there will be a next gen Bolt.
I have a Chevy Volt and it is an amazing car. It is really disappointing that they discontinued the Volt as even compared to today's phevs it has the best mileage on a charge (around 52 miles). Like Jaws, I was hesitant to go full electric. This one gets around 480 miles to a tank as well (40 mpg). My daily commute is around 46 miles, so I rarely have to fill it. I would guess I have filled it around 10 times now in the 4 years I have owned it. Some factors impacting this are that the miles/charge go down a bit in cold weather, and the engine runs when below freezing. Not sure why the latter part is necessary since full electric cars obviously don't need this <shrug emoji>.
yea if we just putted around town it would make a lot of sense. looked into it with the wife for her car but alas, she drives 3-4 hours one way almost every weekend now so that extra 20-30 min to supercharge adds a lot of extra time traveling. so we got a AWD car that gets like 35 mpg average
im not against them, it’s just more time consuming than an already time consuming process.
price and “fill-ups” are the biggest hurdles for most Americans. Average EV cost is over $60k where the average cost for a small sedan is ~$30k
Nobody has figured out how to price your travel time. Towing and charging, ability to get the materials for the batteries and then disposal of said and charger access at holiday travel times remain concerns for me.
These vehicles make a lot of sense in cities with relatively short commutes in southern/warmer states. I am concerned over any push to raise costs and remove choices on ICE vehicles that currently, as noted, bail the shortcomings out. Hybrid transition seems a better route for the longer travel and colder issues.
As others have said, it depends on what you do with the car and your personal situation. If you hit all of the following conditions, you should probably get the EV:
- Need/have 2+cars: keep an ice for the road trips, EV for daily commute/putting around town
- Have a garage with room to install a 240V charger
- 'Reasonable' commute - like less than 50 miles one way
- your electricity comes from hydro mostly (if you're climate focused which you should be)
- qualify for the full Fed and.or State tax rebates
We hit all of those and looked at the Ionic5 and the Bolt EUV, pulling the trigger on the latter. We didn't get the state rebate b/c we bought out of state but the fed tax rebate hit and with that, the top of the line trim EUV was 31k out the door inc tax. 5 year loan @ 3%. Can't really beat that value IMO, unless you want an XS rollerskate and no bells/whistles. GM paid for the 240V charger.
It's my wife's car for the 25mile one way commute and putting around town. I'll take it about 50miles away and back with no sweat, but i do keep an eye on driving efficiently, which I generally do anyway. No oil changes, free chargers are around (and you can plug in at any standard 120V outlet). Plenty of tourque, one pedal driving is easy and awesome so having this thing a year has been ideal - most all new cars are that way.
Having owned that exact car? You will see your range drop to 95 +/- in January and February.
I suggest you check out your current tire rating. Our Mini was delivered with summer tires, we had to make arrangements for All Seasons for New England winters. Yes, I know you don't intend to rely on it for snow/winter use, but summer tires are awful in the cold.
Enjoy the car!
I think you might be surprised. I road trip east coast to Michigan relatively frequently and thought I'd want to keep using ICE for that but prefer the EV after doing it. Part of this is my EV is newer with better adaptive cruise controls, but it's also quieter which is inherent to EVs and makes it feel less tiring to drive.
I threw Toledo to Nashville in the supercharger route planner. You need one shorter and one longer charging session, assuming you would take a lunch break and one other bathroom/gas break normally you probably won't be waiting any longer than it takes to look through mgoboard or send some texts updating people on your progress after the bathroom break. If you're travelling with a family you probably will be done charging before everyone is ready.
As an aside I wouldn't recommend a none Tesla for anyone road tripping frequently until the Supercharger network is fully open to other cars.
I like EVs and I drive a PHEV, but I agree- you're probably not getting to any kind of mass adoption till 'filling up' is about as easy as getting gas. Otherwise, you're looking to have to spend $1-2k min at home to install a 240V charger or you're stuck with public chargers and neither of those options will be palatable to your average American. I'm hopeful some of the newer tech with much quicker charge times being rumored will start coming to fruition
To each his/her own, but if I can spend $2k to eliminate 99% of my gas station "fill-ups" count me in.
You don't even really need 240V to charge. I have charged off a standard 12 A / 120 V outlet for 4 years now. It's never been an issue.
I think we're 2-4 years away from a vastly different amount of charging options. They can work now in certain circumstances but it's pretty narrow. I'm glad the OEMs are building them now so the next generation will be better.
we got the hyundai ioniq - an electric stationwagon, a very dad car - one pedal drive i actually think is more intuitive than two pedal driving. For daily trips it's very easy - even easier than gas since you don't have to ever plan to fill up, and definitely home charging is noticeably cheaper than getting gas. For longer road trips, there's a bit more planning involved - but the cost of fast charging is the same as gas, and instead of a 5 min stop it's a 20 min stop, and the fast chargers are usually near stores. So it's been a good experience.
i love it. Don't know if I'll ever go back to ICE. Altho self maintaining this very heavy station wagon may be impossible so I may miss the regular little bits of tinkering i get to do just to keep the car running - one of those things that used to feel like a chore but now I do kinda miss. Overall tho, electric really does feel like the future.
I really want an electric or a PHEV, but I live in SE Wisconsin and had a kid that goes to Michigan Tech and one that will be going to Northern Michigan in one year. The EV charging in Northern Wisconsin/UP is sketchy at best.....especially the drive to Houghton.
Need something in Houghton, Covington and Iron Mountain at minimum.
Yea for sure - my kid is a long way off from college haha - we wanted somethign that we could easily fit a car seat in the back of and take camping without a sweat. This works for our lifestyle and we are betting somewhat that the infrastructure improves, and also don't plan too many long drives. But just because it works for our lifestyle doesn't mean it'll work for everyone's. yet.
I am holding out for inductive charging. I am imagining a pit lane that you can drive in, maybe you have to go slow, maybe not, but you can charge and don't have to stop.
Didn’t they have that in the game F-Zero?
I forgot about that game, thanks for the blast from the past! Yes, exactly, I've seen some things about Sweden and the UK trying to do it, but I don't know what the current state is.
That's going to be a very, very long time. The current maximum charging power for inductive power transfer is much too low for that charge time. Efficiency is also really bad, and it only gets worse when you have less than perfect alignment.
Honestly if it's a very very long time until i have a car payment again then that alone is a win.
In a tangential space, eVTOL company Archer signed a deal with the Air Force to provide air taxi units that can be used in combat zones. This could be the beginning of some amazing changes in the air travel space.
My sister just ordered a Chevy EUV. I'm curious to see how it works out for her. She mostly drives in the city, but wanted something with the range to let her drive it to visit her kids who each live about 90 minutes from her.
I'm holding out hope for the new Dodge Chargers being useable daily drivers with decent range before I make the switch.
I currently drive a standard hybrid. Love it.
Have a brother who's an engineer for GM working exclusively on EVs. I would have no problem buying an EV now for the driving I do. My concerns are more about global issues that still need to be resolved. They will be, I trust, but some of them may take more time than enthusiasts like to believe:
1. The power grid isn't yet ready. Global warming isn't letting up, and these hot summers are already stressing things.
2. Sourcing of raw materials, manufacturing/refining methods of battery materials, and disposing of used batteries still needs to be improved drastically.
3. This is less of a global issue, but battery life. I have >100k miles on my hybrid with no sign yet of significant battery degradation, but I know there are only so many charge cycles a battery can endure, and quick-charges that create more heat are much harder on current batteries than slow charges. So much work needs to be done. I view hybrids and EVs as being pretty much disposable at the end of battery life. I can't imagine I will want to spend the money to replace my batteries when that time comes. So the entire car needs to be designed to be recycle-ready.
We'll get there, but not immediately.
We got a three year lease on our car for some of these reasons. This is our test drive, so to speak, of electric cars. I have no idea how I'll feel in a year or two, or what other cars will show up that will be better for a variety of reasons. I was reading about battery decline and how batteries do lose their power over the years so do I want to be saddled with that eventually? Probably not.
I view hybrids and EVs as being pretty much disposable at the end of battery life. I can't imagine I will want to spend the money to replace my batteries when that time comes. So the entire car needs to be designed to be recycle-ready.
That's great for those of us who can afford to buy new or slightly used vehicles, but as Stephenjrking raised on this issue back some time ago, what about poor people? I used to be poor, barely able to afford a $2k car to get me to and from work. How many poor people buy like a 10 year old used car for ~$5k, put a little work into it, and then it lasts them another 5-10+ years? What happens if all cars are electric and disposable and only last ~10yrs? That would put millions upon millions of (the ever growing) poor population in a very tough spot, likely pricing most of them out of having a car eventually, which will have downstream ramifications for the middle and upper classes.
Do we even know what it's going to look like yet? There are very few old EVs out there. I honestly don't know how it will play out, but there's a long time still till ICEs are gone. Decades. So maybe down the road you'll have cheap, after-market batteries that people put into beater cars. Hard to say
"So maybe down the road you'll have cheap, after-market batteries that people put into beater cars. Hard to say"
You may be right, but from what I am seeing the manufacturers are leaning more towards sealing the batteries and just assuming the car will be disposable. I only have one source from one company, but from everything I can see, I think the days of us buying an "old beater" for the kid aren't going to be there like they once were. I once paid $400 for a Chevy Nova, put 20k miles on it, then sold it for $200. Cheapest car per mile ever. I don't think that scenario will exist in the next decade.
I don’t get this argument. ICEs are not gone. No one is taking them from poor people any time soon. But the more people buy EVs in the meantime, the cheaper they get — which is already happening. Same thing happened with hybrids, which cost a premium for a long time but are pretty much on par with ICEs now (and are much better for the world). There seems to be some strand of thinking that it’s either-or with EVs and ICEs and that strand tends to see it very politically, for no good reason that I can tell.
1. The power grid is fine and will be fine. All the studies into this say it isn't an issue.
2/3. Used batteries don't need to be thrown out. They can simply be repurposed for something where kW/kg is not hugely important, like home / commercial power storage. Once a car batter gets to the point it only holds 70% or so SoC, it works fine as a battery backup system. Would actually make a lot of sense to use old car batteries for uninterruptable power sources for large server farms. 8 year / 100,000 mile battery warranties are typical, and estimates say that most batteries should last 200,000 miles, with anecdotal evidence of people driving their EVs for over 450,000 miles.
Even when the battery does die, not sure why the entire car would need to be recycle-ready. You can simply remove the battery and deal with the battery and rest of car separately.
"1. The power grid is fine and will be fine. All the studies into this say it isn't an issue."
Your assertion doesn't appear to coincide with current news. Not that the BBC is without fault, but:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-66343133
"Even when the battery does die, not sure why the entire car would need to be recycle-ready."
Battery replacement, including labor, can quickly approach $20,000. No, you absolutely cannot "simply remove the battery." Your EV isn't a flashlight. Replacing most EV batteries is cost-prohibitive.
" Used batteries don't need to be thrown out. They can simply be repurposed for something where kW/kg is not hugely important..."
Correct to a point. Shelf-life can be extended. But said "repurpose" will fail a few years down the road, and you will inevitably have a used battery that does, indeed, need to hopefully not be tossed into a landfill.
All these problems can likely be solved. But it is very naive to think they have been resolved or will be resolved easily/quickly.
So a link about air conditioning proves that EVs will break the grid?
The average AC unit draws 3 kW/hr. The average EV draw is like 1 kW/hr, and mostly at night when other power sources aren't being used.
If you look up studies that are specifically about EVs you will see I am correct.
And you're making a statement that the whole car needs to be recycled. That isn't true. You're confalting two different scenarios. Replacement vs end of life. Taking a battery out so that you can dispose of the car does absolutely not cost $20k.
The reporpuse for a few years as a battery backup is absolutely a feasible alternative. Please explain to me how you are going to repurpose a V8 at the end of a cars life.
Fact is, that with proper management the battery can be useful for a very long time, which significantly mitigates the pearl clutching over just throwing away batteries after 100,000 miles.
We barely drive and live with lots of mass transit options but I'm still leery about a pure electric vehicle because of those instances where I would need to drive a good distance and not having a ton of charging options. I saw a video from a Tesla owner/advocate around NY and he showed how easy it was to fast-charge his car at a station but what he seemingly missed was while there was a fast-charging station within 10 miles of him, the next-closest was something like 50 miles and the third-closest was in Canada. And at least around us one the Tesla charging stations tend to be packed most of the time, and so if you don't charge at home you might wind up waiting 30+ minutes for a spot + charge depending on where you are.
I like PHEV as a middle-ground, especially in colder places where your range may also suffer during the winter.
Having used the Supercharger network on the east coast extensively, I've never waited for a charger (west coast may have some wait times). Unless you're travelling extensively on back roads in the middle of nowhere, having a charger every 20-50 miles along major highways is fine for giving you a few options as your charge gets low.
The charging situation doesn't work for everyone right now for sure. If you don't have parking at home to use a home outlet and you don't use your car super frequently, you could also look for destination chargers (level 2) where you live rather than superchargers. My town has a charger a 15 minute walk from my house, for instance, which I would walk to once a week with the dog when we had work on our house and couldn't charge at home.
I drove my non-Tesla EV from DC to SC. There were Electrify America chargers at Walmarts all the way down I-95. They weren’t as plentiful as in metro-DC, but it wasn’t a problem finding one at a reasonable interval at all. And with how much my family needs to stop to pee, it barely added any extra time to the journey.
I just did a drive across Ohio and noticed chargers at all the rest stops on the Ohio Turnpike. There are also now chargers at the Grand Traverse Mall (it used to be harder to find chargers north of Cadillac). My point being, this issue is starting to resolve itself pretty nicely.
How do you charge an extremely large number of vehicles on a Holiday weekend at the 200 mile mark in West Branch or Grayling heading up from Detroit. Specifically an affordable one like a Bolt which will need it given the many I have driven for GM. What about vehicles that tow and not being able to fit in tow spots as evidenced by online videos and what about Hurricane and Tornado regions where natural disaster wrecks the grid for extended periods and everybody has to evacuate all at once. Don't assume shortsightedness is uncommon. We don't live in Faraday cages.
Driving may be a privilege but is a necessity to someone whose life is in danger.
Are you a two car household?
I am a big believer that for a 2 car household it makes sense to have 1 ev and 1 ice. That to me is the best middle ground vs having 2 phevs. EV is best for daily commuting, ice is best for towing and long trips.