OT: GoT S05 E06 "Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken"
Ughhhhhh.....
That sucked. The episode was pretty great, up until the end.
And I don't know if I mean "That ending sucked as storytelling/execution/etc" or "that was great storytelling I'm so pissed at the bad guy."
I think this is the first time I've actually been frustrated/angry with the unending "bad stuff" happening.
EDIT/UPDATE:
Letting it digest and moving on, I really liked the rest of the episode. The Arya scenes were great - I'm excited to see her become someone else.
Loved the Tyrion/Jorah scenes. A classic "talk my way out of death" moment for Tyrion. It's been a while since he's had one of those. What was his reference to his errhhmm... size? "Don't be so sure?" Pretty funny.
Sand Snakes v. Bronn and Jaime! Fun, but oh man, Bronn got nicked by that blade, and we know what Oberyn was famous for...
Yay the Queen of Thornes is back! Boo, Cersei wins this round. This plotline looks to be following the books, so no further comment on it from me.
Yeah, I pretty much hated it, I mean I know it's part of the story, but by this point we all get that certain people are just shit and it can be implied instead of shown.
Yep. I guess if you're going to go that route (have the marriage consumated), you have to confirm it somehow for the viewer, especially since we've been at that rodeo with Tyrion.
However, could they have done so it wasn't sooooooo disgusting? I guess there's been more disgusting depictions of rape in the show (which this was, though in that world it was pretty well accepted). Even just taking out the audio from the act would have made it a little easier to swallow. This ain't a horror story where the imagination can be worse that what you see/hear. Seeing and hearing that was tough.
Saying this was rape implies this wasn't a conscious (not to mention courageous) decision by Sansa to marry Ramsay, which I believe it was.
1. LF comes up with plan for Sansa to marry Ramsay. They discuss it.
2. Sansa thinks and agrees with the plan. It is a means to an end (the end being regaining her homeland and vengeance).
3. Sansa is a big girl and knows she will need to consummate the marriage. She still agrees.
Which of the above do you disagree with?
I think you are looking at it from one perspective as Sansa is a powerless victim. I am looking at it from the opposite side - Sansa is making a brave decision to do a distasteful thing (marrying Ramsay and everything it entails) in order to get what she wants.
And yet you imply that I'm sexist and call me names and insult me. Thank you for your thoughtful contribution to the discussion.
Clearly it was established that would have ended well.
Oh wow, she discussed it with Littlefinger. And what do you think would have happened had she said no to Littlefinger? Sansa is smart enough by now to know exactly what happens to people who cross Littlefinger.
She was forced into marriage, and the sex was essentially coerced, since refusing to consumate the marriage would likely land her in a session of Ramsay's Super Happy Flaying Fun Time. Even within the context of a coerced sexual encounter, Ramsay violently and aggressively took her and used her in ways she was not prepared for, or okay with, because he knew that she couldn't say no.
It was absolutely, 100% rape and the fact that you can't see that is profoundly disturbing.
Sorry to disturb you, Andre. Thank you for your hot take - let's disagree with a stranger on the Internet and make over-arching conclusions about them!
In Season 1, Dany marries Khal Drogo at the behest of her brother, who essentially was holding her captive. As far as I remember, she never once consented to marry Khal, she was a prisoner, and she was given no other choice. That wedding night sex was definitely rape, in my view.
You bring up some interesting points about Littlefinger. I think Littlefinger is creepily in love with Sansa and sees himself marrying her down the road, and I believe he truly has her best interests at heart (I don't think he was aware of how evil Ramsay was when he came up with this plan). I think she trusts him and did not view herself as his prisoner - he did rescue her from Cersei after all. Maybe its Stockholme Syndrom, but I think she has positive feelings about him and did not feel trapped.
Maybe I'm wrong about the LF-Sansa dynamic and you have the right of it, and if so, it would be equivalent to the S1 Dany-Khal marriage, and I would change my opinion that it would be rape.
Ultimately, we are arguing semantics (which I realize is my fault, since I brought it up!) - we all have the same emotional response; we feel bad for Sansa that she had to endure that terrible wedding night, and we want bad things to happen to Ramsay. The difference is, I think Sansa willingly made a stunningly brave sacrifice to subject herself to some truly awful things, in order to kill the Boltons down the road and regain the north.
Is this the part where I over-simplify a nuanced conversation and say my take is 100% right and if you can't see that then you must be dumb? ;) Have a nice day, I hope I don't disturb you any further.
this is a ridiculous mindset to hold. the fact that you know you are going to be raped by agreeing to something, ie marriage, does not make it less rape...
Is marital rape even a crime in the GoT universe? Hell, it wasn't even illegal in the US until recently.
If you agree to have a crime perpetrated against you, is it really a crime?
but that's kinda irrelavent given that the GOT justice system is six degrees of f'd up by our standards (See eg: trial by combat)
If you agree to have a crime perpetuated against you ONLY BECAUSE YOU HAVE BEEN COERCED INTO DOING SO, it is unquestionably 100% rape. And yall are dense as all get out if you think she agreed to either the marriage or the sex of her own accord.
"I completely disagree that this was rape."
Wait, what?!
See my above response - I can't help but think they are trying to show Sansa's courageous-ness. I see your point and I agree that if she had said no, it wouldn't have mattered.
However I'm thinking of a hypothetical real life equivalent - a poor mother who resorts to prostitution in order to provide for her children. Does she want to have sex with strangers? No, she definitely doesn't. But she does anyway because she believes she has no other recourse to provide for her fam.
Does Sansa want to have sex with Ramsay? Definitely not. But she does anyway because she wants to regain her homeland and get revenge.
So is that rape? Bravery? Maybe both?
I agree that at some point and in some context, she accepted that the marriage would be consummated. You lay out those reasons.
Unfortunately, I don't think she expected what ended up being reality and when the marriage night came, it was clear she had no choice in the matter. Just me epinion.
I do think we are going to see Sansa kick some serious ass now. Or atleast I really, really hope.
Theon than it did Sansa, you could clearly see the disgust in his eyes, and I think it might be pushing him over the edge to know that now Ramsay is not only demeaning him but someone he grew up with and loved and cared about like a sister. I'd be surprised if he keeps being Ramsay's Reek for too much longer, one way or another.
hence it was rape. There are a lot of other reasons that it was rape but that seems the simplest.
I get what you are saying, but you really don't have to go that deeply into the situation. Sansa wouldn't have consented to consummation with a third party watching.
Hell, she didn't even want Theon in the room when they were talking about her virginity, and I don't blame her.
(edit: I was pretty pissed when Theon didn't act in that last scene, as an aside).
This is not "part of the story". The book readers know that this is all new for the TV show. In the book, Sansa is still hidden away at Vale, safe and sound. This did not have to happen.
There was even more horrific act done on Ramsey's wedding night, but the show decided to change that for Sansa.
I'm ready to watch Ramsay Bolton die an incredibly horrible on screen death.
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The writers are removing any possibility of sympathy for the man.
Ramsey Snow was first introduced torturing Theon, for whom nobody was feeling any sympathy (at the time, anyway). So I'm sure that bought him at least some likeability points.
as I do for Dzhokhar Tsarnaev. Hopefully, Ramsay's death will be more deserving of his heinous acts and less humane than Tsarnaev's.
as I haven't read the books, but wouldn't it be a kick in the teeth if they (HBO) have Ramsey become king?
would suck. The only way I'd be Ok wih that is if one of the dragons (to at this point we all assumed had died) busted into the throne room and the show ended in a blaze of fire directed at Ramsey.
The series (tv or books) couldn't plausibly end with Ramsay becoming king, because he is too brutal and erratic to hold onto power. He'd most likely be done in by his own subordinates before too long, just as Caligula was.
Come now. The reason I didn't like that wasn't because it was a deviation from the book. I've read the books and it is necessary that they are deviating.
BOOK SPOILERS:
I much liked the Fake Arya plotline with Reek, so I can see if that's where you're frustration lies. However, I'm excited to see if Sansa can take back Winterfell. That's a cool story too. Just, tonight's final scene was a bit much.
Look, I like both the show and the books but if we are all being totally honest here, the last two books had a ton of aimless filler. Many of the deviations give major characters like Sansa, Brienne, and Jaime, as well as minor/background characters like Bronn and Littlefinger, something to actually do.
I mean, did you really want to see multiple episodes of *SPOILER ALERT* Jaime spending a full season ending a siege and whining about Cersei? What about several episodes of Sansa caring for Robin Arryn's bitch ass while Littlefinger pops in for 30 seconds? Or imagine the endless fun of watching Brienne and Pod wander the north going from town to town looking for the Stark girls and meeting almost no one of consequence until the very last second? *END SPOILERS*
I liked the books, but the last one especially was a slog.
That stuff at the end didn't happen at all in the books... That person is still safe and sound (for now) at the Eyrie.
Wondering what George RR Martin is doing right now. Probably really pissed. Like, mighty pissed. Like me.
The show isn't and can't follow the books exactly. They are different beasts, different mediums. As a book reader, I accept that. I actually like that they are so different - it means the show can't really, truly spoil Winds of Winter for me and it's enjoyable not knowing exactly what's going to happen in the show.
For example, it's definitely better for the show that there's no Aerys Oakheart plotline. But that's fine for the book.
Completely forgot about him. So many characters but he manages to develop most of them.
There will be much rejoicing if and when Ramzy gets his just desserts. I was hald expected Theon to kill him right there.
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Wait, we're suddenly gonna all act shocked now?
As if kids dying, castrations, decapitations, prior rapes, and war scenes didn't let the audience know what they were in for.
Gotta love this social media age...
Oh did I mention we actually watched a pregnant woman get stabbed in the stomach before?
Would be extremely weird to have two completely different plot lines between the books and the show, but HBO probably can't afford to put GoT on hold while GRRM finishes the books. It's one of the most popular shows of the last decade, and putting it on hold could cripple the viewership.
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That's a good point. We don't really know how much they are deviating from the end game. Maybe they aren't much at all. None of us knows what Sansa does in Winds of Winter.
Tonight's Baelish-Cersei talk may have been a WoW plot line starting up.
We knew there would be changes. There has to be because AFFC and ADWD were soooo big and involved too much to be put into TV. Many would argue there's too much for the books. Changes aren't inherently bad. But the ending of tonight's episode will require quite a bit of redeeming from.
Had Sansa not come to WInterfell this season, what would she have done? She would have had to been absent from this season, much like Bran. So, who knows how it will all work out? Well, a couple guys, but one isn't writing very fast....
How the books are written the time lines are so off compared to the show
But how they get to the end game will not be the same. Martin does NOT have any say in the show changes. He is an advisor to the show and they run everything by him and give him a chance to give his input - but they do not need to heed his input if they don't want to.