OT: EECS 280

Submitted by Killewis on

Hey, hopefully this isn't too OT (or maybe you'll be relieved to get a break from all the Jimsanity), but I'm currently a sophomore and I've been fidgeting around with my schedule for next semester.

As of now, I'm a declared statistics major, but as part of the major requirements, I took EECS 183 this semester. (For anyone that's confused, 183 and 280 are both coding classes at the university). I went in to 183 having no coding experience of any kind, but in taking the class, I sorta realized I might actually like coding. The next class in the sequence for a CS minor would be EECS 280 (along with Discrete Math (203), but I would hold off on that class for now).

The one thing I'm concerned about though is that I've heard mixed reviews of the class, with half of them people saying it was one of the hardest classes they ever took and having to put in hours and hours of work just to pass.

Basically, I'm just wondering if anyone on the board has had any experience with the class and can help me make a decision. I'm also taking MATH 217 (Linear Algebra), STATS 426, and a Spanish class, so while that might not be the hardest load ever taken, I'm still concerned I don't want to overwhelm myself if I take 280. Thanks.

EDIT: Thanks for all of the input. After tonight, I would say I'm probably leaning towards holding off a semester so I don't have to take it at the same time as 217. I think I could probably do well in the class as long as I put in a lot of work, but I already have a decent load this year, and I don't want to take 280 without knowing I'll be able to fully commit. The minor is only four classes (203, 280, 281 and an elective) so I'd definitely have time even if I wait til next year to take 280. 

MLD Woody

December 18th, 2014 at 1:26 AM ^

EECS 314 was a joke. It was great to have that buffer as an ME major. There was a lot of busy work at times, and the material sometimes got a little difficult, but the grading was cake (as you guys have mentioned). All that extra credit, quizzes and tests not being the majority of your grade, the exams basically being the practice exams, etc.

 

I got a 10/15 and a 11/15 on the first two exams and walked out with a A+. Never went to lecture, but went to Ganagaos(sp) office hours. He's definitely a cool dude.

harperic

December 18th, 2014 at 12:28 AM ^

No idea, but I'm a grad student at UM who codes all day, every day. If you need help I could probably help. But yeah, I don't feel like opening wolverineaccess right now. Big project due tomorrow

DH16

December 18th, 2014 at 12:32 AM ^

CS major here. You're right on the mixed reviews. Generally people who really like coding and plan to continue on say it's not too bad, and the people who are taking it to see if they should pursue the minor/major but end up not liking it say it's one of their toughest courses. This isn't unlike any other gateway 200-level course in that respect.

I've also taken Math 217. It's a lot of work. I'm not familiar with Stats 426, but Math 280, Math 217, and Stats 426 is probably a decent semester's worth of work alone. I wouldn't add Spanish on top of that unless it's real easy and Stats 426 isn't much work either, because 280 and 217 require a lot of time to stay on top of.

LostOnNorth

December 18th, 2014 at 1:23 AM ^

it's not a hard class, and you'll be glad you did it because you're going to need to learn how to program at some point, be it in a variation of C or something else. Once you get a job, you'll fine you're spending 90% of your time programming something, so might as well learn how to do it.

When I was an intern I was a lone EE in a solidly mechanical department of an auto company and the programs they wrote for their diagnostic software had no loops. They didn't know how loops worked in C style languages. They just kept running the same script over and over and over.

so yeah, long story short just learn it, CS isn't that hard, just tedious. Would very highly recommend 281 as well.

MGoBender

December 18th, 2014 at 10:42 AM ^

Agreed, I think the OP should take 280 in Winter semester.  

I took EECS 280, EECS 203, Math 215 (Calc III) and French 232 my sophomore winter semester.

Damn near exactly what you're talking about.  It was a lot of work, but I'd do it.  Here's why:

I also took Math 217, which I thought was easier than 215.  I don't think it's that bad, especially if you're into coding.  Linear Algebra fits nicely with computer science-y math.

EECS 281 is tough.  It used to be a widow-maker.  Now it's just tough.  You do NOT want to double up EECS 281 and another EECS class at the same time in the future.  I'd take 280 this winter, 203 in fall (always take an easier load in fall, because, fall) and then 281 in winter.  Then you can take your last elective in either senior semester and never have to double up an EECS class.

I skipped EECS 183 (high school AP) and took 280.  I think 183 would have helped me a bit, but I scratched out a B+ in 280 even though I feel I had to work much harder than others for whom this stuff comes naturally (or for those that code in their free time).

- former LSA CS Major, now high school computer science teacher

 

Killewis

December 18th, 2014 at 1:12 AM ^

EECS 183 is called Elementary Programming Concepts and EECS 280 is called Programming and Introductory Data Structures. 183 was majority C++, but for the final project we did, we used Python, HTML, and CSS too (we had to design a website). I think 280 is C++ also, but I'm not positive.

joeyb

December 18th, 2014 at 1:26 AM ^

That's basically what I expected as it corresponds roughly with the first two programming classes at my school.

I agree with the sentiment that you'll do fine in the class if that's what you want to do, but I think you'll find the class rather pointless if you don't plan to pursue programming any further.

LSA Aught One

December 18th, 2014 at 8:23 AM ^

I loved 183 when I took it, but we had to submit our projects in envelopes with the code printed and a copy on a floppy.  My final project was a fully functional version of Wheel of Fortune complete with loadable puzzles.  I had this massive Michael Moore looking guy as a professor, if I remember correctly.

ReegsShannon

December 18th, 2014 at 12:36 AM ^

As a CS major, I thought 280 was pretty moderate. Although, it's a big step up from 183 which is reaaaally easy (maybe not true anymore since I know they just switched up the course this semester), so that tends to throw people off and they get psyched out by it. If you did really well in 183, you'll be fine.

Killewis

December 18th, 2014 at 12:48 AM ^

Alright, taking 183 this semester, I felt like the class wasn't particularly difficult, just more time consuming than most of my previous classes. Although the first exam was pretty tough. But thanks, I seem to be getting the vibe that its sort of one of those classes that's either you're a coder or you're not, and this class will probably tell you which category you fall into. 

Killewis

December 18th, 2014 at 1:15 AM ^

I'm in LSA, so I don't really have much experience, but I have heard IOE commonly referred to as IOEasy (no disrespect to IOE majors, I've heard LS&Play too) so based off of that, you seem to be right. But I could be wrong.

Hail-Storm

December 18th, 2014 at 10:06 AM ^

Engineering toughness (according to other students) was roughly;

Chemical/ EE/ Nuclear

Mechanical/ Aero/ Civil

IOE

There are other disciplines, but I didn't really know much about them.  I think it ends up being what you are good at though.  I was struggling in the School of Natural Resources before switching over into Mechanical Engineering, where I have done much better (in school and professionally). I always thought it was weird how much emphasis engineering students put on their degree being harder than others in LSA and then trying to order toughness of the engineering disciplines.    

bo_lives

December 18th, 2014 at 12:37 AM ^

As you say the opinions vary quite a bit but they average out to "it's hard but managable." If you want to be a CS major you will take 281 after 280, and more often than not people think 281 is the significantly harder course. So consider that in the future you may be in this situation again but with a much more "killer" course. More often than not 280 is the litnus test for 281 (moreso than 183 being the litnus test for 280).

Imo if you don't have many other really time consuming obligations I'd say it's managable and I know people who have managed similar class schedules. If you're really concerned about GPA (meaning basically if you want to do med school or be a Rhodes Scholar, etc.) you might consider trying to spread your curriculum out a little more but in the end it's up to you. I would highly encourage the CS minor, as I took 183 towards the end of my curriculum and loved it; I'm a grad student in the sciences and incorporate a significant amount of coding into my research and wish that I had had the time and schedule spaace to take 280/281.

Either way don't fret over it too much, it'll work itself out in the end :)

Bambi

December 18th, 2014 at 12:39 AM ^

Taken 280, but I know a few LSA guys who attempted CS majors and have had to switch due to 280 and 281. It's a lot of work from what I've heard.

Mgodrum

December 18th, 2014 at 12:40 AM ^

I just finished up with 280 last Friday.  I didn't think it was really all that bad.  As long as you don't procrastinate terribly with the projects you should be fine.  Make sure to check out Vidal's exam reviews if you do end up taking the class.  They really did help me a ton, I'd probably attribute most of my success on those exams to his review.

Killewis

December 18th, 2014 at 12:55 AM ^

Alright, was the grading more exam based or project based? Or mixed? I guess the one thing that sort of annoyed me about 183 was that 50% of your final grade came from 2 exams, while the 5 projects plus the final project together, which was all the coding you did and pretty much the most time consuming part of the class, was only like 35%. 

Mr. Robot

December 18th, 2014 at 12:47 AM ^

I have only taken the class once, and thus only have first-hand experience with the professor who taught the class, but the vibe I've gotten is that your experience will be greatly impacted by who's teaching it. (Same holds for EECS 281 if you decided to take it some day)

I checked the class listing, and there appear to be 4 secions taught by either Ringenberg, Fu, and DeOrio. I have absolutely no idea who the second two are, but Ringenberg was my professor for ENGIN 101 and also taught other sections of 280 when I had it. (He may have even co-taught it; don't honestly remember) Ringenberg is a good professor who was generally very helpful when you needed it and also does a nice job with his lecture content, but his voice is a little monotone, so if you tend to get bored in lectures, beware of that. Other than that though, I would recommend him without any hesitation if you can swing scheduling his section.

Projects, however, tend to be mostly the same except when they blow them up every one in a while, perhaps due to too much cheating. They are pretty managable though as long as you don't totally blow them off (especially the Sorry project, they give you enough time to not have to do it on Spring Break if you don't want to, but you better have done some of it before then if you want that to happen, as that is the most time consuming of the 5 or 6 there are, or at least where when I took it 4 years ago)

Too bad for you Noble isn't teaching it next semester. Noble is one of the very best, and I am extremely happy I was able to take the class with him.

MGoBender

December 18th, 2014 at 10:27 AM ^

Ditto Noble.  Had him for 280 and didn't understand how lucky I was until taking 281 and 203 and on and on... Luckily I had Compton for 475 and Chen for 481 (? - Op Systems).  There's some all-stars in the EECS department.  And then there's some that clearly are there for their research alone.