OT: EECS 280
Hey, hopefully this isn't too OT (or maybe you'll be relieved to get a break from all the Jimsanity), but I'm currently a sophomore and I've been fidgeting around with my schedule for next semester.
As of now, I'm a declared statistics major, but as part of the major requirements, I took EECS 183 this semester. (For anyone that's confused, 183 and 280 are both coding classes at the university). I went in to 183 having no coding experience of any kind, but in taking the class, I sorta realized I might actually like coding. The next class in the sequence for a CS minor would be EECS 280 (along with Discrete Math (203), but I would hold off on that class for now).
The one thing I'm concerned about though is that I've heard mixed reviews of the class, with half of them people saying it was one of the hardest classes they ever took and having to put in hours and hours of work just to pass.
Basically, I'm just wondering if anyone on the board has had any experience with the class and can help me make a decision. I'm also taking MATH 217 (Linear Algebra), STATS 426, and a Spanish class, so while that might not be the hardest load ever taken, I'm still concerned I don't want to overwhelm myself if I take 280. Thanks.
EDIT: Thanks for all of the input. After tonight, I would say I'm probably leaning towards holding off a semester so I don't have to take it at the same time as 217. I think I could probably do well in the class as long as I put in a lot of work, but I already have a decent load this year, and I don't want to take 280 without knowing I'll be able to fully commit. The minor is only four classes (203, 280, 281 and an elective) so I'd definitely have time even if I wait til next year to take 280.
December 18th, 2014 at 12:48 AM ^
December 18th, 2014 at 1:28 AM ^
Ha, I was CE and took the class 16 years ago... I bet we shared many long nights working on those old Sun machines in the library.
December 18th, 2014 at 2:10 AM ^
December 18th, 2014 at 9:17 AM ^
Agree.... for me the toughest classes were 482, 210 (yes! I think the mean in that final was like 16%), 373 (as you can tell I was not as much into the EE side), and 489.
December 18th, 2014 at 1:31 AM ^
Well, I took it almost 20 years ago. Like all programming classes, a lot of it will depend on your experience and comfort with programming going in. For some it was an absolute beast that took them forever to do the projects and for others they would literally bang out the projects during free time the day of turn in.
I found the class pretty easy personally, but then again I was working for CAEN and helping to rewrite the whole backup system at that time so obviously I had more than enough knowledge and experience going in.
If you are a math major the logic part of the class shouldn't be much of an issue. It will primarily be getting up to speed on whatever language they are using these days and the syntax involved. After you are up to speed on language and syntax, its mostly a matter of how fast you can organize everything and get it into the editor and compiling.
December 18th, 2014 at 12:51 AM ^
December 18th, 2014 at 12:54 AM ^
I'm a math major and was in the same situation you are a semester ago. I thought ,since EECS 183 was easy and I liked coding despite having no experience, that EECS 280 was a good idea. I was wrong. The projects aren't bad at all, but the exams are ridiculous, especially when you are taking two hard math classes along with it. I would advise against it. Especially with 217. But I am also taking 426 next semester, and I've heard it isn't too bad.
December 18th, 2014 at 12:59 AM ^
Thanks. Yeah, with 183 this year, the one thing that sort of annoyed me was how the two exams were worth so much compared to the projects. (each exam was 25% of your grade, while each project was 5% and the final project was 10%)
December 18th, 2014 at 1:03 AM ^
It's the same with 280. Exams were 50% of the grade and projects were 40% (4% for project 1, and 9% for projects 2-5), plust 10% for lab(which is a joke). The 280 exams were some of the hardest I had ever taken at U of M. I definitely think it is doable, but it would be a tough, very busy semester for you.
December 18th, 2014 at 2:08 AM ^
December 18th, 2014 at 1:56 AM ^
Obviously not someone who has taken EMag 1/2.
I remember taking the mid term for EMag 1. Like halfway through the exam, everyone looked up and just shrugged. IIRC, the class average was a 9 out of 60 with the high score being a 13. And that class has 3 of the people with the highest GPAs in my year.
Programming exams just aren't that hard. Then again, half the people I've ever interviewed can't diagram a simple efficient queue either and that includes masters and phds. Hint, if you are moving data you are doing it wrong.
December 18th, 2014 at 1:09 AM ^
Im an actuarial math major and I was ina similar boat. I took 183 this semester because I needed it for my major, and ended up really enjoying it. Having said that, taking stats 426, linear algebra, and 280 at the same time seems suicide. I consider myself very strong in math, and did very well in all my calc/diffeq classes here, and have done well in my 400 level classes. but linear algebra was by far the worst class I have ever taken. Thank god its curved because otherwise nobody would pass it. Bu thats just my opinon.
December 18th, 2014 at 1:21 AM ^
Yeah, I'm not looking forward to it. Luckily, since its only a prereq for stats, I can actually take it P/F, so assuming I pass it, it won't be a GPA killer. But I haven't had too much experience with proof based classes (I haven't actually taken a calc class at michigan, I took Calc BC and Calc 3 in high school), so I know I'm going to have to put in work.
December 18th, 2014 at 1:11 AM ^
December 18th, 2014 at 1:15 AM ^
you'll be fine. until you hit 381, no CS class is as hard as everyone makes it out to be, granted im a CE with a very heavy EE bias so it's all relative.
December 18th, 2014 at 1:59 AM ^
This is true. The CS side tends to be a lot easier until you get into the 400/500 level classes where it mostly evens out.
December 18th, 2014 at 1:15 AM ^
Math major here, so grain of salt: 217 was easy. It's really all about knowing the Invertible Matrix Theorem and the definition of linear independence and you're pretty much set after that. Some of the stuff is tedious but not hard. However, if you struggle, go down to the Math Lab in the basement of East Hall, someone there should be able to help out. Anything to stop the endless swarm of calc I/II questions.
December 18th, 2014 at 1:24 AM ^
Thanks, I've actually heard similar things about 217 as 280 (sort of a mix between it wasn't that bad and wow it was really hard), so hopefully if I put in enough work, I'll be fine.
December 18th, 2014 at 1:30 AM ^
I'd say 280 is more like that than 217. 217 came naturally to me. As I said, focus on the IMT (it grows over the course of the semester to having 20 some conditions) and the definition of linear independence and most of the other stuff builds from those. But matrices are tedious to work with by hand.
280 I wouldn't call particularly hard, but there's a lot to do is how I remembered it. You'll get what you put in.
December 18th, 2014 at 1:22 AM ^
...that you are not stuck taking EECS 280 under David Kieras.
Now, I am going to take the 5th before I get myself in trouble.
December 18th, 2014 at 1:28 AM ^
December 18th, 2014 at 1:23 AM ^
December 18th, 2014 at 1:31 AM ^
December 18th, 2014 at 1:41 AM ^
Amen to that. That course moved so slow and dealt with some concepts I had been reading since I was like 10.
December 18th, 2014 at 1:23 AM ^
Took EECS 280 16 years ago... (now that number is depressing)... and it was hard. I do think 373, 482 and 489 were harder though... Actually 210 was harder than 280.
December 18th, 2014 at 1:32 AM ^
Take it, Programming is an incredible skill to have and I wish I stuck with it but, alas, I hated Engin 101. The EECS minor alone would make you so much more marketable to employers. This coming from a senior ME major.
December 18th, 2014 at 1:37 AM ^
I'm an EE, but was CSE and took 203, 280, 281, 270, and just finished 370. I thought 280 projects and material were fairly easy, but the exams are brutal. It's likely that the class will actually be team taught, where each professor listed will teach part of the course for all three sections (that's how Deorio and Fu did it when I took it last year). The nice thing is that the lectures are recorded so you can re-watch them, or if you're swamped you can catch them later. The labs are really easy, but good practice.
If you've taken 280 prior to the last two semesters (like I did), try not to get really angry, but for the last two semesters all of the projects were allowed to be done in teams of 2. So you could work with a partner on them. Partner selection can really impact the time required for this course.
If you're motivated, and enjoy coding, the course is very manageable, and help is always available if you ask for it.
Personally, I love coding but hate the CS department. I think they overall do a terrible job of actually teaching, especially the introductory courses. That's why I switched to EE, and I couldn't be happier with that choice.
Incidentally I finished EECS 216, and 370 finals, up studying for EECS 230 final tomorrow night.
Good luck anyone who still has finals to take!
December 18th, 2014 at 1:51 AM ^
Thanks, I'm pretty decent at teaching myself stuff, its just gonna come down to deciding if I think I can put in the time required. After this thread, I'm leaning towards maybe waiting a semester til after I've taken 217 and Spanish, but we'll see.
December 18th, 2014 at 2:19 AM ^
December 18th, 2014 at 2:21 AM ^
December 18th, 2014 at 1:47 AM ^
Wow, the number and quality of responses to an academic question asked at midnight are truly awesome. (And a breath of fresh air.) I almost forgot that Michigan was a University too.
See that President Schlissel? The "overemphasis" on athletics at Michigan does not preclude an emphasis on academics.
(So feel free to up Harbaugh's offer to $10M if needed.)
December 18th, 2014 at 1:48 AM ^
Haha yeah, I was pleasantly surprised at the amount of feedback this got (and how quickly it came in).
December 18th, 2014 at 2:00 AM ^
The bad news is that everybody is working at 2:00 AM.
(BTW, this thread got more responses than the last five Harbaugh threads.)
December 18th, 2014 at 2:04 AM ^
That's because everyone with a clue knows that nothing new is coming on Harbaugh until after Xmas.
December 18th, 2014 at 2:05 AM ^
If you're really concerned about your grade, start the projects early, and I think you should do well.
Besides that, there are tons of problems today that require both strong statistics and strong coding skills to solve, and the people solving them are making a lot of money. The more of the spectrum between statistician and software engineer you can cover, the more employable you will be coming out of college.
December 18th, 2014 at 2:07 AM ^
If you get really good at it, you can run a blog.
December 18th, 2014 at 2:19 AM ^
December 18th, 2014 at 2:28 AM ^
December 18th, 2014 at 3:21 AM ^
Already some great responses here, but I'll add my own as a sophomore in Ross (third year overall though) who took 280 winter semester last year (and will eventually complete the minor):
The main things I think to point out are 1. The mix of opinions on the difficulty of the class is very accurate and 2. 280 is on a different level than 183. As someone coming into 183 with no experience but expecting at least a somewhat challenging class, 183 was a walk in the park - some decent time spent on the projects, but it came very easily to me and I enjoyed it quite a lot. At that point, I was convinced I wanted to minor in CS. But while 183 weeds out the really low-hanging fruit, 280 is the soul-breaker, as it will take out people like me who cruised through 183 and thought they could handle CS but didn't know quite what they are getting into.
So to put it bluntly, it's not an easy course, and unless you're really strong at picking up coding concepts (which granted there are people who are) it will be a huge step up from 183. The difficulty whacked me at first and the first exam put me in a huge hole (note of caution: 280 exams are immensely more challenging than 183), but I put in the work on the projects and exam prep to dig out of it. Not sure if they're still letting students work on the projects with partners, but if they are I highly recommend taking advantage of that and securing a good partner if possible - that will help a ton with the projects.
If it's something you really want to pursue, by all means go for it, and I'm still planning on completing the minor even though I'm taking a break between 280 and 281 (not recommended though, I'm screwing myself over by academic trajectory has been unconventional). Also, if possible I would take 280 and 203 in the same semester so you can go straight to 281 next semseter, since 203 is also a prerec for 281. Not speaking from experience here, but these are things I've heard from CS kids who have gone through this process.
Hope this help! Also DeOrio and Ringenberg are both great, you'll be fine with either with them.
December 18th, 2014 at 4:39 AM ^
Coming from a MechEng with 20+ years away from UM...but I've had to largely teach myself (along with a few mentors here and there) ladder logic...Gcode for programming machining centers...Fanuc robot programming...and Mazatrol (another machining center programming language centered on describing geometry rather than every single move to make).
So programming is a useful skill. What I find in life, related to initial degree of difficulty is, the things you don't want to do, usually help you down the road somewhere.
December 18th, 2014 at 5:33 AM ^
That's the reputation / urban legend at least, but I also heard from guys who actually took it that it wasn't too hard.
I also took EECS 314 and found it to be one of the easiest classes in engineering. Had an 8 am class with Ganago. Literally fell asleep every single day - most people didn't even go to lecture by the end - and I still nearly got an A+ (and now remember none of it except V=IR! and capacitors can kill you)
December 18th, 2014 at 6:06 AM ^
December 18th, 2014 at 6:29 AM ^
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December 18th, 2014 at 8:11 AM ^
I took Math 417... also matrix algebra. Not sure the difference to 217 or maybe it was called 417 ten years ago?
Anyway - I found the class not too difficult. But I remember finishing the class and thinking "great, I can do matrix algebra - but I still have no idea what it is or why I'd ever use it".
So... I didn't get much from the class.
December 18th, 2014 at 9:10 AM ^
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December 18th, 2014 at 8:18 AM ^
So Math 217 is not that difficult I took it 6 years ago. I assume they teach it the same way. They basically teach you 3 different ways to solve the problem using matrix algebra.
I would caution you on 426 and make sure you took 425. 425 is fairly easy and 426 is a much bigger jump. Also avoid 525 and 526 like they are Schiano, those are the classes where you learn nothing and get 1 of 8 questions right for an A+.
Good luck!
December 18th, 2014 at 6:45 AM ^
I still have nightmares about that class.
You could spend literally 40hrs/week coding a project and if it doesn't compile, then you get a 0.
December 18th, 2014 at 6:52 AM ^
I still have mild PTSD from spending hours trying to figure out which comma I was missing from my code in Engin 101
December 18th, 2014 at 6:52 AM ^
Double post