OT: Career and major advice for working class kid headed to UM (possibly Ross)?
Nephew on my wife's side is in a pretty tough area and was raised by my single sister in law. Good kid. He just got into LSA, with I guess a pending decision from Ross. He will be the first in his family to attend college. Wife and I have helped him along the way and it's awesome to witness. He honestly doesn't really have a passion. No interest in engineering or CS. As blunt as it may sound, he’d like to make a lot of money as soon as possible. He hates being poor. His words. He works hard but it seems he’ll be in the bottom quartile maybe even decile of his UM class based on prior class profiles, so I'm trying to be mindful of what’s realistic to achieve his goals.
From the little I know, the Ross students who clean up on Wall Street are extremely aggressive and have perfect grades (and often family connections). And I personally don’t understand any of the differences and levels of competitiveness between investment banking, sales and trading, private equity, venture capital and everything in between. Would you encourage a working class kid like this to pursue finance—any specific path?—or has tech sort of overtaken finance? I wouldn’t have any idea what’s lucrative for a kid tech-wise if they’re not a CS or engineering major. And Wall Street and tech are rapidly evolving, with lots of job losses, so maybe they aren’t even the ticket they once were? Any insights appreciated.
January 30th, 2024 at 3:52 PM ^
I cannot give you any real advice for Ross but the way to get rich as quick as possible is to find a school that has the degree you are passionate about. Work as hard as you can to learn as much as you can. Try to not get into any debt through school (I know that may not be possible). Work while you are in school to pay for as many expenses as possible. Once you get your degree (for what you are passionate about) work as hard as you can. The kid will be a wealthy individual before he knows it and can give as much as his heart is content until he grows old and happy!
January 30th, 2024 at 8:55 PM ^
Work while you are in school to pay for as many expenses as possible
To piggy back, developing that work ethic is key. Do that stuff while you're young then figure out the path that isn't a straight, linear trade of time for money. And don't aim to get rich quick... I have too many family members that fell to that game. Find your passion, take some risks when you're young and aren't responsible for a family, and hopefully realize that making a good living and not fearing being poor is as good as being uber rich. Money can't buy happiness... But it does help.
January 31st, 2024 at 10:10 AM ^
Was a first gen grad. Econ 2016.
My recommendation to the kid is to avoid any program where he feels alien.
Michigan is no joke, especially for a kid who didn't go to a prep school. I didn't even know what AP courses were when I first got there.
The only reason I made it through is because I found a tribe of weirdos who were both prep-school grads AND not snobby. They took care of me. Gave me rides to central campus bc I couldn't afford to live there, let me couch surf.
Truly generous wealthy kids. They got me through a lot of tough times and exams because they were genuine and could make me laugh. I think my presence calmed them because if I could do it, what was stopping them?
Try a bunch of bullshit courses and see what you wake up excited for. Once you got that down build your major on it.
I had friends who went further than me with classics degrees because they genuinely love it and love/passion kicks motivations ass every single time.
If he's entrepreneurially-minded, get a business or econ bachelors to learn management skills and then stop your education there. Learn everything else by failing in real life.
January 30th, 2024 at 3:52 PM ^
Not career advice but if I could say one thing to any kid going to Michigan - take advantage of everything. Play IM sports, join a few student groups, dance at Dance Marathon, join greek life if you want, go to your profs and GSI's office hours, join a protest, go to games (but not just the major sports), work some different jobs on campus, just do it all.
Why? Well for one it's fun and the last chance you'll have in life to be a college kid and for two the connections you make and people you meet will be the most valuable part of your Michigan experience and will pay dividends for the rest of your professional career.
But also yeah do the B-School if you can.
Go Blue!
January 30th, 2024 at 5:29 PM ^
Great advice. Also to echo the first poster, keep the debt as low as possible. Big debt means little to no money post-college and little flexibility. If he can graduate with low debt and lots of connections he should be able to figure out the job thing and do well for himself. Control the controllable and let the rest work itself out.
January 30th, 2024 at 6:50 PM ^
Three (to add to NeverPunt's points), activities OUTSIDE the classroom are like yeast, making the whole thing rise. Even if something has no immediate and obvious benefit—connections, training, big pay—doing those other things and meeting those other people broaden you. They're part of a good education.
That's true whether or not you know what your passion is. Most people don't know their passion at age 18, 19, 20. Many know they're supposed to have one so they identify what they think they'll like but college, at its best, can surprise you.
Also, a passion may be in a field that doesn't pay much.
Signed,
Ex-professor who supported myself since high school
January 30th, 2024 at 3:59 PM ^
Ross definitely has a certain culture. If he doesn't have a passion for it and doesn't know if he will like the culture, then I wouldn't have him commit to it. College is about exploration and it's fine to not know what he wants to do. Michigan has a lot of different programs that allows students to pursue more niche interests and I would encourage him to dig into that. Ross and CS aren't the only path to making lots of money. Econ, Stats, Org Studies, School of Information, etc. are all ways he can make a good amount of money without the cut throat mentality of Ross or the absolute grind of CS
January 30th, 2024 at 11:00 PM ^
I have a Ross degree (consolation master's after I didn't finish my PhD). My time at Ross was deeply enriching and rewarding, and I've seen kids I taught there go on to do cool things. However, if someone's going to Ross, they should go in with eyes open:
Whether it's Ross or LSA, your nephew should use year 1 to take classes to find out what he's good at and what he likes. There are many paths to high-income jobs, but you have to start with those aptitudes and desires. There's no universal recipe.
January 30th, 2024 at 3:59 PM ^
If his goal is to end up with a well-paying career (not just a job), he should focus on building relationships and trying new things in college. Establish a strong network at Michigan, make friends, and learn stuff. He needs to learn about himself. What is good at? Where does he struggle? What comes easily? What does he hate to do? From there, he can narrow down an eventual career search.
But much like the coaches encourage aspiring football players to play a bunch of different sports and build their athleticism, encourage your young friend to take a bunch of interesting classes, meet people, learn a lot, build connections, and grow as a well-rounded human.
And get a side gig or low-impact job in the short term to generate some extra cash to make the daily struggle a bit less painful.
January 30th, 2024 at 4:00 PM ^
So, I can sort of give loose advice based on personal experience, but I was a polisci/history major, and always knew I was going to grad school. If I had to do it all over again, I don't regret personally going that way (because I loved those areas), but they aren't lucrative.
Fast forward a bit later, and I fell into accounting with no background in it (though did eventually get a business degree so I could pretend to know what I'm doing). I would caution going into anything too tech-heavy at this point, because coding seems to be going away, and I keep seeing a lot of people doing ML/LLM seeming very dissatisfied.
Anything finance/business will probably put you in good stead, but I would definitely agree with people below saying that it should ideally be something he's at least kind of into, or will stick with. Better to make OK money with something you want to do long-term versus good money for something you'll burn out on in a couple years. I say this because I was about to say "don't go into advertising", but then you hear about people doing that and making good money, and accountants are usually not rich, but basically as long as you care about something enough to be good at it, you'll do alright.
January 30th, 2024 at 4:04 PM ^
I agree with NeverPunt - My standard word of advice for young people matriculating to M - seek and ye shall find. There is so much there to get involved with and to take advantage of, but don't expect anyone at M to come looking for you.
January 30th, 2024 at 4:11 PM ^
That is what concerns me. UM has everything and is excellent for aggressive students, but it can also seem large and overwhelming to students from his background. I think following a well-plowed path might be a better game plan for him. As in, as long as you do X, Y and Z you will land lucrative internships and job offers. I’m trying to figure out some X, Y, and Zs I can share with him.
January 30th, 2024 at 4:41 PM ^
This is a very fair concern. A few years ago my kids told my wife and I about a high school acquaintance of theirs who was very unhappy in her foster home situation and wanted to emancipate, but needed a place to live. We were four blocks from the HS and made space for her. She finished high school, went to a summer art program at UofM, and kind of loved it. We were really concerned about her fit there - she was a marginal student with a number of challenging issues and Western Michigan has a much more comprehensive program with support for foster kids. But, she went to Michigan. It was a disaster - she didn't really fit in with the art students around her, most of whom were high-achieving academically, came from wealthy and worldly backgrounds - and frankly were arrogant and entitled. Now, there's a community for everyone at Michigan, and I am sure her people were there, but you need to seek it out, and she did not do that. She left Michigan after the first semester and is now in her early 20s and not really making any progress with her life.
Short story, your nephew can accomplish great things at Michigan - or I am sure anywhere - but being open and actively searching for that fit is so critical at public universities. It sounds like just ending up with a bunch of stereotypical Ross students could be pretty rough for him. Of course the fit doesn't have to be the major, it could be social or sports or the living arrangement. Good luck!
January 30th, 2024 at 4:50 PM ^
It's a real concern. I come from a working class background and a small town in Michigan, and I was totally overwhelmed as an undergrad at U-M. No one in my family has a college degree, so I was completely on my own navigating my undergrad experience and definitely did not get the most out of it. I remember taking a polisci course my freshman year and dropping it immediately because I was too intimidated by the GSI, reading load, and seemingly smarter peers.
Luckily, I had some experiences right after U-M that led me to my true passion, went to grad school (not U-M), and have a great career now. Social and cultural capital are HUGE keys to having a successful undergraduate experience at a place like U-M, and I definitely did not have that.
Truth is even if your nephew gets into the B-school, he won't get the "lucrative internships and job offers" unless he knows people. I would really encourage him to try to find some mentor-type figures in the field(s) he's interested in to give him some guidance. This includes putting in time and effort to get to know faculty. But you don't just show up to office hours without something to say, so he needs help figuring that out. Trying to join faculty's research teams or something like that that affords regular contact is a good strategy.
January 30th, 2024 at 5:32 PM ^
As someone who came from a similar background, but certainly didn't go to UM I'll mention some things those of you who came from upper middle class backgrounds don't think about.
(Other than networking, do that, do that first, second and every minute of every day).
Fix yo' teeth. I never noticed. 10 years after college my girlfriend mentions it and gives me a lengthy explanation. And wear brand name clothes. Even if they are old and dingy there is nothing worse than wearing Levi's you bought at Walmart and every single upper middle class kid knows you did. You can look stupid. You can't look poor.
January 30th, 2024 at 7:50 PM ^
There are plenty of thrift and consignment stores in the ann arbor area. I got a number of name brand jeans, new with tags ($150+) for under $15 at stores like Platos.
January 30th, 2024 at 10:57 PM ^
Wtf is this? What kind of people are you hanging around who would care that you aren't wearing 'brand name clothes.' There are plenty of arrogant people at Michigan but also plenty of normal people.
January 30th, 2024 at 11:39 PM ^
Eh, when I was in school our landlord illegally withheld about $500 from our security deposit, so we went to student legal services and decided to sue. Turned out great for us. But the interesting thing is that the law student who advised us said that sort of thing happens all the time, and typically nothing gets done because for the parents paying their kids’ rent, that kind of money is not worth the effort to recover. So, there are plenty of “normal” people there, but only because it’s such a large student body. The norm of the place, however, is college kids who mostly can’t be bothered to spend a couple hours filing paperwork to get a few hundred bucks back that was taken from them.
January 31st, 2024 at 9:09 AM ^
My parents went to Michigan as did both of my brothers. We were definitely not poor. My parents owned their house and I never grew up hungry. I still had to work summers and while at Michigan to pay for college with my parents help.
There is a large portion of the Michigan student population that does not have to work and money is not a concern or object. This can be intimidating as he will feel like he is missing out on certain things like coffee and dinner and other activities that seem like nothing to someone who grew up wealthy, but will mean a big deal to him.
Really try to prioritize the things he wants to experience that are unique and cost money and focus on the things he likes. Football tickets were cheap for students (~$90 back in the days) so hoping he can still get tickets. Hockey tickets were also very inexpensive for the students.
Have him focus on what others have said. Working odd jobs with friends on campus can be fun. Going to the Arb, joining student activities, IM sports, are all great low cost activities. Late nights hanging out in the dorms or at someones house or apartment are also unique activities at that time in his life. Hope he loves his time there and excels.
January 31st, 2024 at 9:49 AM ^
^^^SECONDED^^^
This can be said for any college experience of you have a similar background as I almost completely wasted 4 years at Southern Illinois University and it was the mentorship I discovered in my last year that saved me.
As well as understanding the relationship God intends for all of us to have.
January 31st, 2024 at 7:28 AM ^
First, congratulations to your nephew for all his accomplishments and for putting himself in position to experience the greatest university in the land. I’ll echo many of the other comments here by recommending your nephew go into year one with his eyes and his heart up and open to exploring the unknown and making new friends (contacts). His less common background (for UM at least) can pay dividends on the classroom as he will be able to bring a perspective to his work and discussions few others will have — which he should embrace and not run from. I recommend he take advantage of every opportunity (office visits, special projects, etc.) to meet with and develop connections with professors. These connections can pay significant dividends down the road and for life. One of the most valuable aspects of a UM degree is the connections you develop — with fellow students and professors. The other is of course learning who you are separate from your family, your interests, your strengths and your weaknesses.
Regarding the risk that UM can be overwhelming, that is true for everyone of course, but particularly true for first-in-family students with few academic role models. For someone like your nephew, I’d strongly recommend looking into one of UM Learning Communities. https://lsa.umich.edu/mlc. Joining one can help reduce the size and complexity of the UM experience significantly. The Learning Communities also seem to do a good job keeping an eye on beginning students and helping them cope with can be a bit overwhelming at first. Strong recommendation for your nephew to consider looking into his options here.
If he were my nephew, another piece of advice would be to have one eye on the impact AI is having on the workplace - and steer toward opportunities less likely to be significantly impacted in the years to come. This will be hard to predict I’m sure, but areas like Law, or creative pursuits might be interesting, in addition to business ownership or business leadership.
Finally…a big yes to working to keep down his debt through the experience. A very difficult task in today’s environment. I paid my own way through school many years ago (when things were much cheaper of course), by working 25/30 hrs per week in the evenings. I take pride in that, but regret missing out on a number of extra-curricular activities and networking opportunities. The key is balance here. Nothing wrong with a bit a work to keep you grounded and some cash in your pocket, but not at the expense of missing out on the point of being there - which is to go in deep and fully on the experience.
January 31st, 2024 at 7:47 AM ^
An additional thought. Unless things have changed dramatically over the years, summers in Ann Arbor can be a great time to push forward and make progress on your goals. Summer classes and internships are great ways to accelerate opportunities and connections. Campus jobs can interfere with these opportunities, but I believe UM is now doing much better at counseling and providing work placement support for students so they can achieve a balance of earning some money, gaining some basic work experience, but also being available for career enhancing experiences as well.
Also, as per the recommendations from others for your nephew to take this opportunity for self-discovery, he should strongly consider studying abroad for a semester or two. Few things are more perspective-altering than living in a foreign land.
Of course, if after all this your nephew discovers his true passion in 17th century French lit, and he finds himself living in a fourth floor walk up on the outskirts of Paris without a penny to his name, happy but still desiring material wealth, he could leverage those great UM contacts to marry money and have it all!
January 30th, 2024 at 4:05 PM ^
He has my father's profile and if my father had been lucky enough to have gotten into U of M, I would have advised him to go for Ross or Econ. And if he floundered, so be it. The exposure to that world is the key. My father went from shoe shine boy to Wall Street exec. It was never easy and talk of "passion" for a job always struck him as funny. His "passion" was that his parents had third grade educations and he was going to be damned if he was going to stay poor. And the beautiful thing is that this "passion" drove him every day of his working life and gave him tremendous fulfillment when he finally did obtain goals he had barely dreamed of. Even just owning a nice car or having a golf club membership. He appreciated all of it, moreso than his peers who may have had more comfortable beginnings and connections.
January 30th, 2024 at 4:07 PM ^
no career advice either. but as a freshman he should explore and find something that he is good at, and it is never too early to look for opportunities in the summer.
January 30th, 2024 at 4:09 PM ^
Unless something has changed in the last 30 years, you don't get into Ross until your junior year. I applied and didn't get into Ross despite having better grades than some others who got in. Ace the econ and accounting pre-reqs. Write that you want to be an accountant and make money in your essay.
January 30th, 2024 at 4:13 PM ^
Ross admissions have changed. I think most of the class is admitted out of high school now. And maybe a handful are cross-campus transfers after freshman year.
January 30th, 2024 at 4:44 PM ^
I'm glad it was only 2 years when I graduated. I don't think I could have handled 4 years of Ross.
January 30th, 2024 at 4:21 PM ^
It has changed (around 2016). They have Direct Admit now for freshmen.
January 30th, 2024 at 4:09 PM ^
It was quite a while ago, but I grew up in the coal regions of PA (low income) and I got into Ross (not called that back then, just Michigan Business School). It can be done, even back then when they were not very sympathetic to those kinds of kids.
What is nice about Ross / Michigan Business School, both then and now, is that they do not heavily track you into a set major within business. So you can explore and sample early on if you are not sure what you want to do in the field of business, which is quite broad.
You may come in thinking that you are going to specialize on Accounting, but then wind up interested in Real Estate or Business Analytics based on what you get exposed to there.
Ross is very big now on getting low income, first-generation kids into the school, so that it is not all just Wall Street offspring types. This will give him a advantage for Ross admissions which is fiercely competitive. Less than 10% are admitted. It is easier to get into some Ivy League schools than it is to get into Ross.
If he can get in, he can explore what he may be most interested in, which will likely be different than what he probably thinks now. It is a good program for that, and they understand that kids, especially low income first-gen kids, don't have it all figured out already. They provide good support for that. And Ross graduates do quite well financially.
The hard part is getting in.
January 30th, 2024 at 4:55 PM ^
I agree with this re UM B School (I went before it was Ross too). The emphasis is on getting a pretty well rounded business degree (econ, law, acctg, mktg, ops, finance, communications, cis etc,) so 90x% of the curriculum was common regardless of your "concentration". What the b-school was VERY good at was getting you in front of companies that were hiring. So if I were giving him advice I'd say assuming you get into the b-school a) I know you want to make a lot of money and I get that but don't lose your soul in the process b) knowing that you said "yeah whateva" to "a" I'd encourage you to take the core classes and see which ones are most interesting to you because you'll likely be able to pursue a job in that area of business. That may include all the finance/trading stuff but that may not be what you want c) take the intern stuff seriously - the students coming out of Ross have some pretty impressive skills from the classroom but most have a few years of interning that i. provides $ ii. gives you great experience iii. perhaps helps you focus on what you hate and what you like.
Hope that helps - I wish him much success and happiness in life.
January 30th, 2024 at 11:45 PM ^
A friend of mine, Econ major, didn’t get into the B school, but was able to shmooze his way into a lot of recruiting events and has ended up doing well for himself. So even if you don’t get in, there can be opportunities to enjoy some of those benefits.
January 30th, 2024 at 6:03 PM ^
I think this is an important perspective on Ross. I went to Ross (pre Ross). I have three kids that recently graduated from Michigan: Ross, LS&A and Engineering. (All three great experiences. GO BLUE!!!) Do not let your or other people's prejudices on Ross students or its purported culture color anyones decision to go there. If you are simply looking to maximize your post-grad earnings, it is a worthy choice. Making a choice in college should be based on you skills and passions. However, most 18 year old kids are not able to accurately identify what those are. The great thing about Michigan is that it excels in so many areas that it allows kids to explore their passions.
Specifically, Ross is not more academically more rigorous than Engineering or many areas of LS&A. You will be busy. Ross's non-class work does a very good job prepping you for life after college. The focus on internships is a good example. That is part of the reason its students get jobs. Employers recruit there because they know that their students are prepared beyond their core courses.
If you your friend is unsure about their direction and they are lucky enough to get into Ross (congratulations) then they should strongly consider it. Do not let a people's sloppy world view limit your opportunities. It is a wonderful experience.
Btw I would expect that the dropout rate at Ross is significantly less than Engineering and LS&A.
January 30th, 2024 at 4:11 PM ^
I didn't attend Ross and was an Econ and Poli Sci major in LS&A. From folks I know who when to Ross, it's extremely competitive. Personally, I don't think where he stands in the % of grads means anything. Work hard and he'll do fine.
That said, pursuing something only for money is a horrible idea. I get the, "I grew up tough with no loot" thing, but pursuing something just for money is a recipe for burnout and unhappiness. Sorry, it just is.
Getting that first big job/chasing raises/promotions is great, and then afterwards all you care about is the next one and more often than not, you're miserable. I've been there. If you want to be a good uncle, you tell him to take a bunch of intro classes in his first year and see what he likes. "But Uncle, I just want to make money". Be a broken record. Don't accept that as an answer, if you really care about him. Hopefully, he can find something that he enjoys and that will also pay him well. I would not expect an 18-year-old kid to necessarily have a passion yet. He doesn't need to have it all figured out just yet; your approach, IMHO, should be steering him towards exploring his options to see if he can find something he really enjoys.
January 30th, 2024 at 4:12 PM ^
"You can retake a test but you can't retake a party."
January 30th, 2024 at 4:13 PM ^
He needs to be mindful not just of his interests (as others have said), but also his abilities. Because even if he can get a good finance job, he's not going to last long (and not going to get rich) if he's not any good at it. It's not just a pure math thing; I did just fine with the math in engineering, but financial math makes my head spin. It did in school (I took a financial math class as an elective to finish my math minor, and I was horrible at it), and it still does. In other words, I couldn't do finance if I wanted to.
When I hear bottom quartile/bottom decile, that gives me real pause about recommending something that is incredibly difficult (there's a reason that finance pays so well, it's not just about the hours). As an example, my sister was bottom decile at U of M, and it was a struggle for her from start to finish. So explore it, sure, but prime him to accept the possible reality that he might not be cut out for it...
January 30th, 2024 at 4:25 PM ^
I don’t think bottom quartile or decile of his UM class profile suggests he’ll flunk out of UM. It’s just knowing what I know about his title one high school and his test scores, he is not a teen from International Academy, Cranbrook or some East Coast boarding school with a 1,550 SAT score and 30 college credits after perfect scores on ten AP exams. He is the top student at his title one high school but UM is full of elbowy kids from ultra competitive backgrounds. I just wanted everyone to be mindful of that context so nothing possibly too unrealistic is mentioned.
January 30th, 2024 at 7:11 PM ^
Half the kids in my dorm I'm not sure how they got into U of M. Sounds like he is a hustler and I'm sure top 50% will be pretty easy if he is. My two pieces of worthless advice: 1) consider a unique degree that Michigan has that will land him a job assured out of college no matter his GPA. 2) If he is the kind of person that has a future in sales look for a degree that lends itself to that and if you can get into a corporate structure hustle your butt off and you can rise quickly in sales at most companies.
January 30th, 2024 at 4:24 PM ^
I graduated in 99 and at that time, for undergrad, I believe you had to start in LSA or another M college then apply to B school after second year. (Admission was largely based on how well you did in Acct 101 and 102) Maybe that's changed now.
All that aside, my advice would be study what you truly like and things often fall in place. (Aside from a kid who knows exactly what they want to do at 18, i.e.Engineeer Pharmacist , microbiologist etc)
You have time to select a major. I majored in Econ and was mostly miserable because I felt it would open the most doors. I was in advanced math classes with Engineering and Math majors and was simply not on their level.
Side note: I remember Investment Banking firms on campus recruiting Anthropology and English majors , since they felt those grads could be more easily coached versus a B school grad.
January 30th, 2024 at 4:28 PM ^
Software Development. A lot of money real quick. I was making six figures within 5 years in the field.
January 31st, 2024 at 1:23 AM ^
I second this. My brother was a high functioning Michigan engineer (Engineering Physics) and went on to graduate with a Masters in Nuclear Engineering from MIT. His Masters thesis involved having to learn and write Java script and C++. He fell in love with programming during this time and went on to become a software architect after graduating from MIT. He bounced around for a few years, went from a big company to two startups in succession before landing at a company that developed software for commodities trading at the Chicago Mercantile Exchange. Made a ton of money in a handful of years. But the hours and stress from the job were ultimately too much for him and he quit. He is now spending his time as a board member at a few tech startups.
Long story short, there are jobs that can get you rich quickly but nothing is free in life. You pay back that boatload of income with your time and added stress on your soul.
January 30th, 2024 at 4:28 PM ^
There are lots of ways to make money, so it's okay for that to be secondary. And the key to having money is to be wise with it once you get it.
I like the 'find your passion' comments here, but I appreciate that isn't always readily apparent (especially at 18-22). Ergo, I suggest to young professionals a) pay attention to what you don't like (industries, roles, type of work) to help narrow the field and b) consider that your passion may not be job, role or industry specific but about the environment you get to do it in (e.g., similar or different day-to-day, chaotic or calm).
LSA is a great place to get exposed to lots of things (speaking from experience) and I often hire as many LSA as B-school kids. Successful people come from lots of places (with a wide range of college GPAs), but above all they tend to communicate well, learn quickly, and can structure thoughtful solutions to any problem. Smart, intellectually curious people can learn how to build a financial model at any time, but developing relatability (and EQ) sometimes happens by being exposed to a more broad array of things and ideas.
Good luck to the lad! Congrats to him and Go Blue!
January 30th, 2024 at 11:47 PM ^
This is very good advice.
January 31st, 2024 at 10:37 AM ^
^^ Yes, this: "Successful people come from lots of places (with a wide range of college GPAs), but above all they tend to communicate well, learn quickly, and can structure thoughtful solutions to any problem. Smart, intellectually curious people can learn how to build a financial model at any time, but developing relatability (and EQ) sometimes happens by being exposed to a more broad array of things and ideas."
First: there are tons of successful not-too-bright ppl in the business world, some wildly so. Being gregarious AND conscientious with follow through, knowing enough to know what you don't know (so you can hire or collaborate for those parts) while remaining confident re: what you *do* bring to the table / in your own abilities, and then just being willing to grind out the rest till it's time to hang it up & go out and have fun/home & relax, these seem to be some of the key ingredients. Consistency, responsiveness and persistence are key, it strikes me, in the business world.
I followed my passions. It worked for me, beautifully, until it didn't --you can burn out on passion / disillusionment just like you can get lost in & burn out on the unchecked pursuit of money.
A balance is good, true: in retrospect, things worked out best for me when I attended to both the material and interest/talent/passion-related side of things.
But figuring out how you best function, where you can fit in to have a long, successful career that enables you to lift or keep yourself & your family out of poverty and secure material well-being: this can certainly be a legit driving imperative in & of itself. (Both my parents did this-- one pursued their passion (which happened to be kind of lucrative), while the other sacrificed theirs for financial stability (kid on the way; lots of younger siblings)).
Secondly-- top student in their graduating class is no small thing! And probably more similar to the bulk of UM students than not. Those with the fancy credentials you mentioned are either Michigan honor students or (more likely) at an East Coast ivy league school. He'll be fine.
If you're still concerned, though: iId echo recommending he take a variety of classes. Both to try out & find what clicks, but also to develop himself as a generalist, to discover what he does / doesn't like but knows enough about to work in a larger system, company, or (if he decides to strike out on his own) ecosystem.
That way, if he does find something he is thrilled about & wants to specialize in, it's gravy. But not necessary: he's still met an important goal of getting the lay of the land and building a basic foundation.
Then, just work it: meet people, build connections & a network, do the internships with care & gusto.
Final thought / anecdote: in high school, I met/hosted two German exchange students. One was (apparently) a straight-A student in the (English-learning) classroom. I didn't know this till the end, though, and wouldn't have guessed it: the other did virtually all the communicating, perhaps imperfectly but with flair, and was the interesting, more memorable one. Together, we had awesome adventures.
Here's to his college education being likewise --and to your continuing to be a wonderful uncle! He's lucky to have you in his corner.
January 30th, 2024 at 4:34 PM ^
Congrats to your nephew, it sounds like the whole family has worked and sacrificed to achieve this goal.
When I was in HS I had one goal - make $’s. My fam had no money and I was tired of being poor (but never ashamed). When I graduated in ‘82 that meant Engineering. I was fortunate to go to UM. I couldn’t stand engineering and struggled to maintain the grades. But I found a discipline called IOE, Industrial & Operations Engineering (aka, In-and-Out Easy). It mixed business, common sense and engineering together. I was fortunate to get a great offer at Beaumont Hospital after graduating. I made $25k which was almost twice what my Mom had made when raising six kids.
Ok, story time’s over. Like many have said, I hope he tries MANY things in Ann Arbor from community, to cultural, to political, to clubs…. There is no unique path that leads to success. He has an opportunity and that is all. What he does with it will be his story. Go Blue!
January 30th, 2024 at 5:31 PM ^
IOE was what I would also recommend as good general degree that will get you a job without knowing exactly what you want or having to be a genius. I was with a bunch of geniuses in Chem Eng. and graduated not wanting to work as a Chem Engineer.
IOE is also a great gateway to B-School. at UM. At B School, I discovered my passion: technical sales and marketing which is a great way to money for someone motivated to work on commission.
January 30th, 2024 at 4:43 PM ^
Ross is fine but very bro-y. He can stay in LSA and study a field that is generalizable and would lead to being in demand, such as Math, Econ, or one of the real sciences (which excludes Econ).
The content of the coursework and grades are generally less important than relationship building and breadth of experiences - that is, as long as he’s competent and successful regarding his studies. The real value of a liberal arts education is, as others have noted, in having new and eye-opening experiences: seeing, being seen, and being involved in interesting things. But it’s also about building emotional resilience (i.e. challenging yourself) and mental capacity for critical thought, so studies should not be neglected - albeit not obsessed over.
Culturally, Michigan can be a challenging place for people from a working background. He’s going to be surrounded by entitled people who don’t know how to fill out a bank deposit slip or do their own laundry, who don’t see value in doing things for themselves and look upon those who do with condescension or contempt. It’s easy to get tripped up over status and comparisons, which is toxic. That’s challenging, and annoying, and really frustrating watching people waltz into lucrative jobs despite a lack of competence when graduation time rolls around, but that’s part of the whole building emotional resilience thing. The good news is, there should also be an abundance of really talented, curious, and awesome people who go to a place like UM to immerse themselves in the best quality available, not as a status symbol or brand to latch onto.
In short: be the man, kick ass, and find the good people/things that lead to fulfillment.
January 30th, 2024 at 4:48 PM ^
Has Michigan really changed that much in 30 years? When I went everyone I knew did their own laundry and I rarely ran into the types of people you talk about. But I lived on North Campus with the engineers so maybe my experience was different.
I grew up in a tiny farm community and I didn't feel out of place at Michigan at all, outside of just having to work a lot harder than I did in high school.
January 30th, 2024 at 5:05 PM ^
I went there 20 years ago and you correctly inferred that my post is colored by personal experience. I grew up in a very poor, rural, blue collar community and the culture shock was pretty intense. I don’t mean to downplay how many truly excellent people I met at UM, but there are all sorts of assumptions, norms, and stratifications that someone who isn’t from privilege will have to figure out. I would guess that’s amplified since UM has increasingly been courting and catering to the global elite to populate their student ranks. When I was there it was common for students to have their parents pay laundry services, rent, luxury car payments, and whatever else this kid might not have access to, and feelings of resentment and also trying to “keep up” are traps, so just giving a warning against that is what I intended.
January 30th, 2024 at 5:12 PM ^
I mean, most of my clothes growing up were purchased from K-Mart, so I'm pretty sure I wasn't from privilege. :)
Maybe I was just oblivious to it because I had a good group of friends where that stuff just didn't matter. Plus I grew up about 30 minutes from Ann Arbor and spent a ton of my childhood there so I was basically on my home turf.
January 30th, 2024 at 5:25 PM ^
We’re about ten years apart in terms of student careers and my understanding is that a lot did change over that span, where basically I jumped in at about the time the school really started ramping up its costs, admissions standards, and courtship of big money hustlas. And not to sound elitist, but where I’m from sounds a lot more rural- growing up I was 30 minutes from the biggest town for a hundred miles in any direction, and that one was clocking in around 10K people. Not sayin’ but some folks might consider growing up in the sphere of influence of a wealthy, cosmopolitan suburb to be privileged. Just sayin’