OT: 141st Anniversary of Custer's Last Stand w/ Mich connection

Submitted by Ahriman on

Just came this article about the 141st anniversary of Custer's Last Stand and came upon some information that I didn't know about and thought some on the board might not know about and find interesting:

At Gettysburg, he has his horse shot from underneath him. And when it looked like the Union Army might lose to the Confederates, "The person between them and that fate was Custer. And Custer and his Wolverines, the Michiganders, unleashed an incredible charge," Philbrick said.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/custers-last-stand/

And more from Wikipedia:

At the subsequent Battle of Gettysburg, the Michigan Brigade was posted east of Gettysburg along the Hanover Road on July 3. On the third day, the brigade fought in piecemeal fashion, with the 5th and 6th serving as dismounted skirmishers near the John Rummel farm on the left of the battlefield, while first the 7th and then the 1st Michigan charged into a growing mounted melee in the center. Custer's cry of "Come on, you Wolverines!" became the rallying cry of the brigade.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michigan_Brigade

EDIT: My mistake, it's next Sunday June 25. Got a little focused on the Michigan connection and didn't read it closely. Sorry.

NFG

June 18th, 2017 at 6:26 PM ^

If I recall correctly, the Rebels held a 7:1 odds against him and his brigade of Calvary. Took balls of steel to charge them head on.

coldnjl

June 18th, 2017 at 7:47 PM ^

While I can't argue too much against his atrocities: i.e. Fort Pillow and his connections with the KKK, there are several reports that his ideas towards african americans changed 180 degrees towards the end of his life. Probably one of, if not the greatest tactician of the cival war, but without a doubt, one of the most troubleing figures.

wildbackdunesman

June 18th, 2017 at 9:01 PM ^

 

 

What laws on the books or treaties did he violate?

War is hell the sooner you get it over with the quicker.  By destroying the breadbasket feeding the confederate army - Lee's army starved - and thus surrendered quicker and saved lives.

The Confederates chose to occupy Atlanta and fire out of it - I am supposed to demand that Sherman than go ahead and do what exactly deep behind enemy lines?  Prance around aimlessly or fire back into the city?

Confederates chose to booby trap roads with landmines - which could have completely impeded his progress and therefore imperil his entire army.  Would it be wiser to have Confederate POW’s clear the paths, which made the Confederates stop using landmines, or would it be wiser to have your army die behind enemy lines?

Southerners never call Robert E. Lee a war criminal.  Yet his men kidnapped more than 1,000 blacks in their invasion of Pennsylvania to sell as slaves for profit.  Most of which, were born free in the North.  His men also burned buildings and stole property that they “paid” for in worthless IOUs to be paid in highly inflated confederate currency, which was worth nothing anywhere.  His men also kidnapped well to do whites in Pennsylvania to hold them for ransom.  All of this happened BEFORE Sherman's March to the Sea.

Yet, I am supposed to call Sherman a war criminal and Robert E. Lee a southern gentleman.

The lost cause is BS.

http://www.post-gazette.com/news/state/2013/06/30/Confederates-slave-hu…

 

 

Everyone Murders

June 19th, 2017 at 7:25 AM ^

I started to write a similar reply, but yours captures it exceedingly well.  I'd only add that I've got precious little sympathy for what happened to civilians who very largely supported slavery, which is what that war was about.

The idea of people crying about Sherman burning down some plantations on the way to Savannah (especially when he was mostly focused on logistics and supply centers - although he certainly sought to demoralize the South to discourage future belligerance) is funny to me.  They must have forgotten who was working those plantations, or they simply don't care.

wildbackdunesman

June 19th, 2017 at 10:16 AM ^

"All that Sherman proposed to do in Georgia was well within the existing laws and customs of war and not all that different, at least qualitatively, from what Lee and his army had practiced in Pennsylvania the preceding summer."  

-Steven Woodworth "This Great Struggle" page 316

 

Stonewall Jackson proposed doing exactly what Sherman did, except to the North, 2 and a half years BEFORE Sherman did it to the South.  Jackson even had his map maker make a map for an invasion into Pennsylvania to carryout such actions.

I don't sympathize with the whines of the South over Sherman.

 

Additionally, previously in the war the Union Army of the Potomac arrived across the river from Fredericksburg Virginia.  The Cofederate Army of Northern Virginia then arrived second and moved into the city itself.

The Confederates fired out of the city first.  It is laughable that the Confederates scream bloody murder that the Union fired back into the city after the Confederates moved into the city and fired out of it.  There are still lost causers that talk about the horrors of Union soldiers firing into "George Washington's boyhood hometown," but they never mention the Confederate actions begging such a response by the Union.

This precedent that if Confederates moved into a city and fired out of it, it was therefore fair game, had been established well before Sherman and Atlanta.

SalvatoreQuattro

June 19th, 2017 at 1:33 PM ^

But Sherman's act by today's standards were a war crime. Undoubtedly so. He targeted civilians. That was his intent as he himself expressed. That is a criminal act according to the Geneva Conventions. What Sherman did was establish a pattern of behavior by the US military that would last to Vietnam. Total, uncompromising war that targets civilians as well as combatants. Northerners can try to spin or justify his act all they want. It just shows that many alleged humanitarians really are not. These same people cry over collateral damage to civilians in modern war but are positively gleeful about the Hunnish assault upon people who were Americans. Yes, the Confederates were on the wrong side of history. Yes, they too committed war crimes. But Sherman's crime matters more because of the precedent it established.

wildbackdunesman

June 19th, 2017 at 3:23 PM ^

Ridiculous post on so many levels.

#1 The US didn't sign the Geneva Convention until 1882 - and that one only protected civilians aiding wounded.  Not civilians or their property, period.  Also, Sherman had already started on his march before this first treaty was ratified in Europe - NOT in the US.

#2 If we are to use modern day standards, I could make a legitimate argument that the Continental Armies were war criminals.

Robert E. Lee was then a war criminal.  His men did everything Sherman did BEFORE Sherman.  Just that Sherman had more ability to do it longer.

#3 And you ignored this - Sherman violated no laws, treaties, or conventions of war for his day and time, period.

#4 Sherman did not set any such precedent and it is laughable lost cause BS to claim so.

"In later generations, popular legend would have it that Sherman invented destructive warfare  specially for the use on this operation, and the claim would be taken up by some historians who ought to have known better.  In fact, the practice of attacking an enemy's economy and infrastructure and therby also his morale was as old as warfare, nor had it gone into disuse during the supposedly limited wars of the eighteenth century, much less those of the Napoleonic era.  Such wars were certainly not limited in that way.  All Sherman proposed to do in Georgia was well within the existing laws and customs of war and not all that different, at least qualitatively, from what Lee and his army had practiced in Pennsylvania the preceding year." -Steven Woodward "This Great Struggle" Pages 315-316

#5 Sherman didn't target civilians for sport.  He was deep behind enemy lines and had to survive.  The Confederates chose to dig in behind Atlanta and then chose to fire first from the civilian areas.  This is using your civilians as human shields.  Sherman admitted that firing back would harm civilians, but that is different than how you are portraying it - and it was the Confederates choice to hunker in the city and shoot out of it.

 

 

SalvatoreQuattro

June 19th, 2017 at 3:58 PM ^

You are defending a ruthless assault on civilians by by pointing to Confederates doing it. As of that makes it any better. Point of fact there were no laws of war at that time. Not anything like the Geneva Conventions which came later. It can be said that neither side was committed war crimes because there were no such thing as laws of wars. Lincoln did establish guidelines called the Lieber Code but that was not law. However, as moral beings living a century and a half later we ought to be able to make moral judgments of men and acts according to our own standards. If slavery and racism are wrong why isn't war targeting civilians? Calling Lee a criminal and not Sherman is a perfect example of hypoocrisy. How can Lee be one for doing the same as Sherman? Furthermore, both sides had been waging a pitiless type of war before Lee even took command. Sherman's March was ruthless and was intended to be so, His harsh tactics did indeed become part of American military doctrine. One can most clearly see this in the Indian Wars and much later the bombing of Japanese and German cities. Sherman was certainly not the first nor only practitioner of this kind of warfare, but his actions on the March and in the Carolinas showed that if Americans could do this to other Americans inflicting it on other peoples would be less of a moral stretch.

wildbackdunesman

June 19th, 2017 at 5:15 PM ^

I have a problem with you factually making incorrect statements like Sherman started a precedent that existed as US policy before he was born, before he did it in the Civil War, and we'll after he died.

The hypocrisy is the narrative that Sherman is a war criminal and Lee is a gentleman. I think it is flawed to judge him out of context with his time, laws, and situations.

Sherman broke no laws or treaties.

He did not treat civilians like it was at Wounded Knee. He ordered materials to be destroyed that helped the war effort as had other generals on Both sides prior.  He ordered that food be left behind enough for the civilians, but not enough to ship to the Confederate Armies.  It is ridiculous of you to assert that Sherman's actions in 1864 set a precedent for fighting Native Americans, since entire villages of Native Americans were getting wiped out a century before he was born.

Bottom line: Sherman's actions SAVED LIVES on both sides of the war and didn't broke any laws or customs of warfare - nor did it set any precedents that hadn't been in place - except the brilliance of breaking free from his supply chain deep in enemy territory perhaps.

pescadero

June 19th, 2017 at 10:57 AM ^

Whatever they may have thought - they were US citizens engaged in revolt against the duly elected government of the USA.

 

They were traitors.

 

As were the revolutionaries against England. Winning traitors who had legitimate complaints, but still traitors.

 

wolpherine2000

June 18th, 2017 at 7:41 PM ^

...there isn't much about The Battle of Little Big Horn, or the Indian Wars generally that deserves celebration. A very sad period full of righteous people doing what they thought was right and entirely blinded by culture to how inhuman they had become.

 

SalvatoreQuattro

June 19th, 2017 at 1:57 PM ^

who by then had killed millions of Ukrainians, shot 20,000 Polish officers and soldiers, and would later rape 2 million German women. Oh and over one million Germans would die in the relocation of ethnic Germans after the war. I should not forget to mention the Russians stopping before Warsaw and allowing the Germans to crush the Warsaw Uprising. Entire city was destroyed and tens of thousands killed. What heros!

gopoohgo

June 18th, 2017 at 10:17 PM ^

16th Michigan Regiment, 3rd Brigade, 1st Division of V Corps, Army of the Potomac was on Little Round Top, defending the flank of the Union Army on the 2nd day of Gettysburg.  

20th Maine (of Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain fame) was last in line, but if the 3rd Brigade collapsed, the Union line would have fallen, and we very well may have a very different country than what we live in currently.  

Being a history dork (and living in Maryland), would recommend walking up Little Round Top on a summer afternoon to the 16th Michigan memorial, or the High Water Mark at the Angle on Cemetery Ridge.  Was blessed to see a Virginia ROTC batallion doing a ceremonial crossing of the Angle when we last visited the battlefield.