OL Question for MGoCoaches

Submitted by Sten Carlson on
Calling MGoCoaches/OL experts! I'm not starting this thread to bash the OL, I think they're doing OK, and showed some nice perimeter blocking, as Coach Harbaugh mentioned. We saw UCF load up the box and run blitz like mad all game long last week, and this week CU seemed to take away between the tackles effectively with a man-mountain and a good MLB. While watching yesterday's game I saw a couple of missed cuts, which obviously isn't on the OL, but I also saw some running plays that were too reminiscent of the Hoke/Funk days where OL got no push and the RB was hit in the backfield or right at the LOS. So, what's going on? Are we just going to have to wait out the cycle of OL recruiting and development and hope for average coupled with elite scheming/adjustments? SpaceCoyote, Magnus, et. al., is it the X's & O's or the Jimmie & Joe's ... any help?
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Leonhall

September 18th, 2016 at 2:47 PM ^

I'm not an expert but I'd wager to say it's a new system and just average talent really. I just don't think other than Cole, the oline has a great deal of talent. They're not horrible but just average imo. Newsome is young still....again, just my 2 cents.



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TrueBlue2003

September 18th, 2016 at 5:42 PM ^

you and the OP keep using that word.  Are you implying we have average OL talent for all of FBS? The B1G Ten? What is the population of OL in which you think our talent is merely average?

CBS projects 3/4 draft eligible OL to get drafted with Cole the 3rd (!!) best draft eligible C, Magnuson the 17th best OT, and Kalis (!!) the 15th OG.  Newsome is an NFL talent. Braden could even get there if he gets healthy and improves upon last years team.

So if you mean average for a top 5 or top 10 team, then yes, we have average OL talent for a top 10 team.

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Sten Carlson

September 18th, 2016 at 5:50 PM ^

I'm talking average in terms of performance. I don't care about recruiting stars, nor draft potential -- I care about on field performance while at Michigan. Individually, they may have been highly ranked coming in, and individually they may project highly in the draft. But, together they're not playing as an elite unit, and I'm wondering if I'm correct in that assessment, and if so, why that is the case.

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TrueBlue2003

September 18th, 2016 at 6:12 PM ^

I'm not sure what your baseline is, or whether you think the only way to be better than "average" is to be "elite" but this unit has performed very well in pass pro and pretty good in run blocking, if the entire FBS is the benchmark.  PFF was very high on the performances the first two games, certainly not as well last game, but again if you mean average for FBS, I don't think they're performing like the 60-something best O line in college football.

Are they elite? Not if you have to be top 5 to be elite.  Are they top 20? Probably.  That's definitely above average.  So if you're waiting for a top 5 elite OL, then yes, we need a full cycle of elite recruiting at the position and full 3-4 years of elite coaching.  That's what any top 5 line needs.

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Reader71

September 18th, 2016 at 9:17 PM ^

You should not use the draft as a metric. The draft (and the star system, since it is partially bas d on who they think will eventually get drafted) puts a ton of stock in physical traits. Height, hand size, arm length, etc. A lot of guys go higher than they should -- or get drafted instead of better collegiate players -- because they look the part. If nothing else, or guys really do look the part. But to say that Kalis is the 15th ranked guard on a draft board is not to say that he's the 15th best guard. There are likely a lot of better players who are undersized, or they go to a small school, or they're in their first year of starting instead of their 4th, or what have you. I saw a board projecting Kalis being drafted in the 2nd or 3rd round. David Baas was drafted in the 2nd round. This isn't a knock on Kalis, per se, but he is much closer in ability to someone like Omameh, who went undrafted.

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TrueBlue2003

September 18th, 2016 at 10:11 PM ^

asked by the OP was how much of the gap between our OL and an elite OL is due to X's and O's vs. Jimmie's and Joe's, or put another way, how much is due to coaching/scheme vs. talent?  The post by leonhall to which I replied indicated that the shortfall is due to having average talent.  

You're correct that draft projections aren't exactly a reflection of college production but also weigh talent factors like hand size, speed, all the physical attributes you mention.  And since it accounts for those factors, it is the best proxy metric for talent of current college starters, especially when it comes to pro-style linemen. So I simply argued that we have above average talent at the position based on NFL draft projections.

Whether we're getting the most of that talent is the X's and O's side of the argument, and I'm sure we're not getting the most out of the talent thanks to the Darrel Funk years these guys went through.

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StraightDave

September 18th, 2016 at 2:54 PM ^

if it's the OL or RBs or a combo of both.  However, I want to know how much Kyle Kalis paid for his frontline ticket to watch UM play football.  

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klctlc

September 18th, 2016 at 3:31 PM ^

I did not watch him throughout game and curious how UFR will come out.  But I can tell you there was one play in second half I believe where he runs cleanly through the hole and has one LB to hit.  He literally falls over on his face and the LB crunches Deveon.  If he does not fall over it is a long run DeVeon, a really long run.  

I re-ran to see if his feet got tangled up, but did not see it. Just think he was moving to fast.

Once again, not sure how he will grade out, but man it is a weird play. I am sure Brian will mention it.

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FolkstyleCoach

September 18th, 2016 at 7:25 PM ^

Also a couple times when he was the second puller and he went after the same defender that the first pulling OL successfully blocked, turn it up field big fella!



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switch26

September 18th, 2016 at 2:56 PM ^

Outside of the oline, our rbs are pretty bad save some of the younger guys. Smith is a hard runner, but has horrendous vision and one of the slowest rbs I think we have ever had.

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switch26

September 18th, 2016 at 2:56 PM ^

Outside of the oline, our rbs are pretty bad save some of the younger guys. Smith is a hard runner, but has horrendous vision and one of the slowest rbs I think we have ever had.

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Sten Carlson

September 18th, 2016 at 3:00 PM ^

Smith is a beast, and I think he's one of the key players on this offense. His heart and drive is seems to fire the offense up. Do I wish he was faster, sure. But he looked pretty good yesterday on his TD run, and I the bowl game last season. I wish people wouldn't dis on him so much. I agree he has some vision issues, at times, but I don't think he's been given the best blocking in front of him.

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pmark1210

September 18th, 2016 at 3:12 PM ^

there were atleast 5 separate instances where I looked at my girlfriend and said "needs to see the lane, should've cut left, big gain to the right, etc." his vision is below average. great heart, powerful, probably the key to the offense, but vision is below average

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Sten Carlson

September 18th, 2016 at 3:16 PM ^

I saw those too, along with the biff between Speight and Isaac at the exchange. From what the guys who seem to know have said in here, vision isn't something that can be coached up much. It's a frustrating kind of double whammy I suppose -- not the best blocking and not the best vision, especially when we see other teams with great blocking and great vision. Hopefully both will be there soon.

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DairyQueen

September 18th, 2016 at 6:36 PM ^

I'm just glad we got rid of that Thomas Rawls running-back.

He had no vision, no power, not that fast, and did nothing for this team.

It's super easy to judge who's a good running-back and who's not, since football is not a team sport and not really that complex at all.

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991GT3

September 18th, 2016 at 8:04 PM ^

facetious since Rawls plays for the Seattle Seahawks and is very prominent in their offense. 

Our biggest issue is the left tackle position. I have never seen some many wiffs in trying to block an on coming OLB. They need to do something to shore it up. Michigan began to keep Smith in to help block the rush from that side.

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Michology 101

September 18th, 2016 at 3:51 PM ^

I felt some of our RBs went the wrong way on various running plays. I know it wasn't just Smith, so I couldn't blame it all on him. A running back missing a good running lane is a part of football. Our O line is rather poor at creating a push and opening up holes. This makes us more critical when our RBs miss one of the few good holes our O line does create. That's been our running game bugaboo for years. Our O line doesn't create many holes, and our RBs don't have good vision to take full advantage of all the ones that are created.

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FormerlyBigBlue71

September 18th, 2016 at 3:01 PM ^

I think it is lack of talent on the line. Braden, Mags, and Kalis look to my untrained eye like they have poor balance and get shed very easily. They also seem to struggle getting to the second level to block. I think this will only be remedied by recruiting and developing. I really like bredenson and onwenus athleticism so potential is there to be much better run blocking line next year if Cole returns.

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Sten Carlson

September 18th, 2016 at 3:10 PM ^

This is my concern. I get the sense that the guys Hoke & Co. recruited were, on paper, pretty talented but they received so little development that we're dealing with a hangover/old dog new tricks scenario -- these older guys just aren't elite and won't be. It's a difficult spot, and very frustrating, but is what it is I suppose.

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1WhoStayed

September 18th, 2016 at 6:21 PM ^

You back pedalled earlier when challenged on the 'average' rating by saying you weren't stating that individuals were average, but rather their collective performance was average.

Now you call out the entire group of individuals and state that they'll never be elite players. Which of the 4 Hoke recruits (i.e. older guys) - which are all likely to play in the NFL - do you feel will never be elite?

And maybe your definition of elite would help. Is being drafted by the NFL enough or do you need to be a consensus All American?

O line play is so much about rhythm and teamwork. By the OL and RB.  This OL is fine. and they'll continue to get better.

PS - Sometimes the opposing team WILL make a play - even against a great Michigan team. Patience.

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RockinLoud

September 18th, 2016 at 4:50 PM ^

Very possible. RR's OL coach went to the Hoosiers after he was canned at M, they've had a pretty dang good line the last few years with at least one all-American and consistent NFL draft picks with way less highly touted recruits. The OL development under Hoke was beyond terrible.

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A_Maizing24

September 18th, 2016 at 3:22 PM ^

I really think that OL recruiting is very finicky. I mean, outlet highest rated OL is our worst lineman. It is all about development and scheme preparation. Many times yesterday (and before) you will find our OL on the ground and no defender near them when they are picking themselves up off the ground.

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wolverinebutt

September 18th, 2016 at 3:32 PM ^

It seems we have been waiting longer than Tim Tebow for sex for this Oline to put it together.  I hope they improve as the sason progresses becuase I'm noy impressed so far.    

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Sten Carlson

September 18th, 2016 at 3:43 PM ^

It sure does seem like we've been waiting a long time. It bring me back to an discussions that I had during the RichRod years. OL recruiting and development are very "pipeline" driven, and it was my contention that, as evidenced by the numbers of OLinemen in the roster through the transitions, Michigan's broke down. When that happens, it seems, it takes some time to get things back on track. If we go by the premise that a recruiting cycle is 5 years, then we're almost 2 full cycles through and we're still not back to the elite OL's we had in the past.

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ThadMattasagoblin

September 18th, 2016 at 4:17 PM ^

It is what it is at this point. The guys we have are average. OL is clearly going to be the last position to be Harbaughfied as we lose a bunch of guys to graduation after this year and it takes the longest to develop.

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HAIL-YEA

September 18th, 2016 at 4:37 PM ^

is probably going sound Debbie downerish, but I think with Drevno being the OC he is just not able to coach the oline at quite the level he did before. I think he is still doing an above average job, but I doubt he will get this line to the elite level he is capable of with coordinator responsibilites to deal with.

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PowerEye

September 18th, 2016 at 5:42 PM ^

Even against Colorado our Offense has been very vanilla. This makes it easier for the D to read their keys and attack. Once we get into Big10 play, you'll see Harbaugh insert play designs that give our OL more advantages.

Remember last year? We suddenly began running whams and traps from new formations, and a whole series of inside screens to the RBs and TEs. These play designs create uncertainty on the defensive front, helping the OL win their individual battles while putting pressure on the DBs to defend the run. We just gotta be cool until Big 10 games.

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