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NCAA 13 Team Ratings are out

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June 5th, 2012 at 4:34 PM
#1
redwings8831
Joined: 03/05/2009
MGoPoints: 1132
NCAA 13 Team Ratings are out

Michigan:

Offense - 97
Defense - 94
Special Teams - 91
Prestige - 6

http://forums.traditionsportsonline.com/threads/ncaa-13-team-ratings.78725/

Also, the demo for 360 came out today and will be out tomorrow for PS3.

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June 5th, 2012 at 4:41 PM
#2
EECS Grad '15
Joined: 03/26/2012
MGoPoints: 98
First thing I see is Michigan

First thing I see is Michigan D > Alabama D. Mattison uber alles.

EDIT: Also BS on 99 for LSU offense.

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June 5th, 2012 at 4:46 PM
(Reply to #2) #3
Son of Lloyd Brady
Son of Lloyd Brady's picture
Joined: 07/15/2011
MGoPoints: 2425
Tulsa?

91 Offense & 89 Defense?

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June 5th, 2012 at 5:30 PM
(Reply to #2) #4
omg_shiirtless
Joined: 06/08/2011
MGoPoints: 138
I don't think LSU's 99

I don't think LSU's 99 offense is BS. Didn't you hear what they did to Tiger Stadium after the National Championship?

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June 6th, 2012 at 6:23 PM
(Reply to #2) #5
RickH
RickH's picture
Joined: 11/01/2009
MGoPoints: 915
First thing I see is that 97

First thing I see is that 97 is our overall, not offense.  It clearly says in the post "Overall - Offense - Defense - Prestige" yet OP added special teams instead of overall...

 

Also, our defense is rated lower than Alabama's and LSU isn't rated with a 99 offense.

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June 5th, 2012 at 4:40 PM
#6
joeyb
joeyb's picture
Joined: 10/12/2008
MGoPoints: 14048
I have glanced through their

I have glanced through their site, but it doesn't seem like much has changed from 12. Am I wrong on this? I'm not going to buy the game unless they have some pretty hefty new features.

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June 5th, 2012 at 4:43 PM
(Reply to #3) #7
Brown Bear
Brown Bear's picture
Joined: 01/10/2011
MGoPoints: 35139
They've added one new

They've added one new spectator. Besides that the game is unchanged.

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June 5th, 2012 at 4:45 PM
(Reply to #7) #8
I Wrote a 4 Wor...
I Wrote a 4 Word Letter's picture
Joined: 08/25/2009
MGoPoints: 1836
The game has a few new

The game has a few new features/updates/improvements. Of course that would defy the logic that no competition makes them put out crap every year without worrying about it.

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June 5th, 2012 at 4:44 PM
(Reply to #3) #9
david from wyoming
david from wyoming's picture
Joined: 03/15/2009
MGoPoints: 2981
I'm not going to buy the game

I'm not going to buy the game unless they have some pretty hefty new features.

Isn't that what everyone says, every year?

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June 5th, 2012 at 4:57 PM
(Reply to #8) #10
joeyb
joeyb's picture
Joined: 10/12/2008
MGoPoints: 14048
I don't know what everyone

I don't know what everyone else says. In the past I've purchased it for major changes to the team (RR being hired) or major changes in the game (custom playbooks). I don't really see any changes that would affect my game play, which is why I'm asking.

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June 5th, 2012 at 5:10 PM
(Reply to #8) #11
michfan6060
michfan6060's picture
Joined: 01/22/2011
MGoPoints: 1479
Rule of thumb I have is to

Rule of thumb I have is to buy it every other year.

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June 5th, 2012 at 7:43 PM
(Reply to #20) #12
dothepose
dothepose's picture
Joined: 12/30/2008
MGoPoints: 7480
Its like breathing, I just

Its like breathing, I just buy it without thinking of it, without telling myself to do it, it just happens. 

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June 5th, 2012 at 5:06 PM
(Reply to #3) #13
go16blue
go16blue's picture
Joined: 04/28/2010
MGoPoints: 6746
Just a few bug fixes and new

Just a few bug fixes and new rosters, as usual. I know I wont be buying it.

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June 5th, 2012 at 4:42 PM
#14
MGoVillain
MGoVillain's picture
Joined: 01/09/2011
MGoPoints: 1805
I'm gonna be honest, us

I'm gonna be honest, us having a better D than Sparty doesnt make a lot of sense to me this year especially, w our question marks up front.  

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June 5th, 2012 at 4:53 PM
(Reply to #4) #15
Teepodum
Joined: 08/06/2011
MGoPoints: 606
More importantly... Our d

More importantly... Our d higher than Alabama's

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June 5th, 2012 at 4:42 PM
#16
acnumber1
acnumber1's picture
Joined: 10/19/2009
MGoPoints: 18671
Calm down

A prestige rating of 6 is the maximum rating.

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June 5th, 2012 at 5:15 PM
(Reply to #5) #17
Bobby Digital
Bobby Digital's picture
Joined: 07/05/2008
MGoPoints: 2390
How intuitive of them.

How intuitive of them.

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June 5th, 2012 at 4:43 PM
#18
hart20
hart20's picture
Joined: 05/25/2011
MGoPoints: 5692
Other relevant rankings:

Form will be: name, offense, defense, special teams, prestige

Alabama: 97, 92, 95, 6
Notre Dame: 97, 94, 95, 6
Michigan St.: 93, 89, 89, 4
Ohio: 95, 89, 95, 6

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June 5th, 2012 at 4:47 PM
(Reply to #6) #19
SANGREDELTIGRE
Joined: 03/24/2012
MGoPoints: 13
Bama, State, And ohio

all need their o and d ratings switched.  ND needs 10 subtracted from all their ratings.

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June 5th, 2012 at 4:48 PM
(Reply to #6) #20
woodfeld
Joined: 07/31/2008
MGoPoints: 790
??

So they have MSU's offense (new QB, new WR's, etc) higher rated than their defense??  That would make me want to buy this game for it's "accuracy"

Skimmed through the ratings and it looks like defenses are lower rated across the board...I think I only saw one team with a defense rating above 95 (USC with a 99), while there were many many teams with offenses above 95.

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June 5th, 2012 at 4:49 PM
(Reply to #6) #21
MichiganMan2424
Joined: 03/09/2011
MGoPoints: -99998917
So

So ND is better than Bama?

BAHAHAHAHAHAHA

That's all

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June 5th, 2012 at 10:47 PM
(Reply to #6) #22
Mr. Yost
Mr. Yost's picture
Joined: 07/25/2011
MGoPoints: -9898289
Note

Note: You guys do know that EA doesn't create the overall rankings...right?

They're based on the player ratings and more emphasis is put on starters.

A team with 11 starters at 90...and a bunch of reserves at 60 could have a better overall rating than a team with 11 starters at 85 and a bench full of 80s. The latter is the better unit, but the game may not read it like that (that may be a dramatic example, but it IS weighted).

Also, EA traditionally doesn't "downgrade" players...so if they hyped a kid as a sophomore and he didn't play well, he'll still be good his junior and senior year.

I wouldn't be shocked to see someone like JT Floyd as like a 92 in the game. No disrespect to JT, but that's a big stretch. Someone like Craig Roh, who's started since his freshman year is also likely to be overrated in the game.

 

Every year I adjust the ratings and make them as realistic as I possibily can compared to other players. I wait until the names come out and then I adjust the top 50 players at each position, and then do Michigan based off that. I also use two pre-season magazines to help, so it's not biased.

The biggest reason I adjust is to boost the freshman and redshirt freshman. With the way you can recruit in the game, guys like Keith Heitzman and Chris Bryant will NEVER see the field in 4 years...in fact, they often get cut. You can make them a respectable rating in the high 70s as redshirt freshman and they eventually become starters or role players as upperclassmen.

 

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June 5th, 2012 at 4:50 PM
#23
goblueritzy92
goblueritzy92's picture
Joined: 01/26/2009
MGoPoints: 3524
And so begins the 14th

And so begins the 14th straight year of MSU fans bitching about how they got screwed on their ratings.

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June 5th, 2012 at 4:59 PM
#24
LandryHD
Joined: 07/04/2008
MGoPoints: 4650
Oregon is not a 6*

Oregon is not a 6*

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June 5th, 2012 at 5:13 PM
(Reply to #17) #25
D-Rob4Prez
Joined: 02/21/2012
MGoPoints: 521
Agree

There are 14 schools with a 6 rating. There should only be 10 so i think these 4 should be 5's: Oregon, Clemson, Boise St., and Ohio. Picking a 4th was tough, so I made it easy.



Other 6's:

Bama

Auburn

Florida

LSU

Miami

ND

Oklahoma

Texas

USC

Us

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June 5th, 2012 at 5:20 PM
(Reply to #22) #26
Drill
Joined: 06/30/2008
MGoPoints: 707
Remove Miami IMO

I don't think that Miami deserves to be a 6 right now, or maybe ND doesn't, but I think OSU does.

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June 5th, 2012 at 5:33 PM
(Reply to #27) #27
acnumber1
acnumber1's picture
Joined: 10/19/2009
MGoPoints: 18671
Boise

Not sure Boise deserves even a 5.

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June 5th, 2012 at 6:37 PM
(Reply to #22) #28
MgoRayO3313
MgoRayO3313's picture
Joined: 11/05/2011
MGoPoints: 1558
ohio 5, Miami 4

ohio probably should be a five simply because we will never here the end of it if they are not. I feel like Miami should be a five. There previous eight seasons or so have been only mediocre in a relatively weak acc.

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June 5th, 2012 at 6:39 PM
(Reply to #22) #29
MgoRayO3313
MgoRayO3313's picture
Joined: 11/05/2011
MGoPoints: 1558
correction ohio 6, Miami 5

correction ohio 6, Miami 5

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June 5th, 2012 at 6:42 PM
(Reply to #22) #30
maizenblueCW2
maizenblueCW2's picture
Joined: 06/29/2010
MGoPoints: 1762
Clemson

has one season where they ALMOST aren't a complete disappointment and they jump 2 stars to a 6 star team?

 

Sense this does not make.

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June 5th, 2012 at 10:57 PM
(Reply to #22) #31
UMxWolverines
UMxWolverines's picture
Joined: 03/01/2009
MGoPoints: 33485
Auburn and miami...ehhhh

Auburn and miami...ehhhh

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June 6th, 2012 at 12:08 PM
(Reply to #17) #32
Blueph
Blueph's picture
Joined: 07/08/2008
MGoPoints: 12760
Stars only matter for recruiting

The only time when stars are relevant is recruiting in Dynasty mode.  There are 14 6* schools, and I wouldn't be surprised if Oregon is one of the 14 biggest recruiting draws for high school kids right now.

The only 6* ratings I would quibble with are Boise State (even with their success, they still can't recruit with the big boys) and Miami (not a recruiting powerhouse recently).

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June 5th, 2012 at 7:20 PM
(Reply to #18) #33
omahagoblue
omahagoblue's picture
Joined: 04/10/2011
MGoPoints: 166
Come on they were shut out by

Come on they were shut out by an SEC defense. That is very good! Ussually because of the SEC speed an offense has negative points at the end of a game.

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June 5th, 2012 at 5:13 PM
#34
lhglrkwg
lhglrkwg's picture
Joined: 07/03/2008
MGoPoints: 27727
Clearly EA wasn't dissauded

Clearly EA wasn't dissauded by the Orange Bowl because Clemson still got a 97, 96, 91. And I don't know what compelled them to put Utah at 95, 92 ,91

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June 5th, 2012 at 5:56 PM
(Reply to #21) #35
Filthy Dilithium
Filthy Dilithium's picture
Joined: 04/17/2009
MGoPoints: 263
West Virginia just scored

West Virginia just scored again.

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June 5th, 2012 at 5:16 PM
#36
BradP
BradP's picture
Joined: 10/17/2010
MGoPoints: 754
Those ratings are an absolute

Those ratings are an absolute joke.

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June 5th, 2012 at 5:16 PM
#37
Drill
Joined: 06/30/2008
MGoPoints: 707
Top teams based on this

If you were to make a top 25 based on these scores, weighting the offense, defense, and special teams scores equally, you'd get this:



1 Wisconsin
2 Texas
3 USC
4 LSU
5 Oregon
6 Notre Dame
7 Oklahoma
8 Alabama
9 Clemson
10 Florida St.
11 Michigan
12 Virginia Tech
13 Ohio St.
14 Oklahoma St.
15 South Carolina
16 Utah
17 Arkansas
18 Georgia
19 TCU
20 Auburn
21 Stanford
22 Texas Am
23 Michigan St.
24 Washington
25 Nebraska

Yeah.... that top 25 seems pretty bad to me.

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June 5th, 2012 at 5:21 PM
(Reply to #26) #38
Drill
Joined: 06/30/2008
MGoPoints: 707
Wisky

Wisconsin being the #1 overall team was the most surprising to me.

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June 6th, 2012 at 3:37 PM
(Reply to #26) #39
M-Wolverine
M-Wolverine's picture
Joined: 10/04/2009
MGoPoints: 42199
Not actually too different

From how the polls actually work...

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June 6th, 2012 at 12:10 PM
(Reply to #25) #40
Blueph
Blueph's picture
Joined: 07/08/2008
MGoPoints: 12760
Not that bad

It certainly doesn't track the consensus polls, but it's not too silly (other than Notre Dame at #6, obviously).  And remember, these are based only on video game player ratings - they overrate recruiting hype (as opposed to performance, which leads them to overrate disappointing 4* and 5* recruits - e.g. Notre Dame) and don't take into account things like coaching acumen and experience.

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June 5th, 2012 at 5:26 PM
#41
ryebreadboy
ryebreadboy's picture
Joined: 12/02/2010
MGoPoints: 5894
Honestly the only

Honestly the only justification I can see for this is that they want no one to be less than 80. They need a better scale if everyone is in the 90s. If someone's offense is a 45, well, they should play better. If I can autoplay a game against a terrible team and have it not be a blowout, there's something wrong there.

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June 5th, 2012 at 7:36 PM
(Reply to #29) #42
Urban Warfare
Urban Warfare's picture
Joined: 09/28/2010
MGoPoints: 1691
Agreed.  If I autoplay a

Agreed.  If I autoplay a B1G's first week against a 1-AA team, it shouldn't even be close. 

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June 5th, 2012 at 11:59 PM
(Reply to #49) #43
MGoDC
Joined: 03/21/2010
MGoPoints: 2517
I see what you did there.

I see what you did there.

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June 6th, 2012 at 6:16 PM
(Reply to #49) #44
RickH
RickH's picture
Joined: 11/01/2009
MGoPoints: 915
:(

:(

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June 5th, 2012 at 5:36 PM
#45
Bryan
Bryan's picture
Joined: 07/10/2009
MGoPoints: 13410
How, and I mean HOW

Is Oregon's defense higher rated than it's offense? 

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June 5th, 2012 at 5:36 PM
#46
D-Rob4Prez
Joined: 02/21/2012
MGoPoints: 521
More interested

In Denard's speed. First ever over 100? Assume he will have highest ever speed rating for a QB. Vick, Roberson, White, Crouch and Bollinger have to be up there.

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June 5th, 2012 at 5:39 PM
#47
The Shredder
The Shredder's picture
Joined: 07/01/2009
MGoPoints: 4384
I went out and bought NCAA

I went out and bought NCAA 2006 for $3. Everyone should do the same. 

 

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June 5th, 2012 at 5:47 PM
(Reply to #34) #48
bacon1431
Joined: 07/26/2008
MGoPoints: 10330
Why the hell didn't you

Why the hell didn't you already have it?

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June 5th, 2012 at 6:35 PM
(Reply to #35) #49
The Shredder
The Shredder's picture
Joined: 07/01/2009
MGoPoints: 4384
I had it loaded on my PS2

I had it loaded on my PS2 HDD. I want a copy I can take to work.

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June 5th, 2012 at 7:44 PM
(Reply to #42) #50
rockediny
rockediny's picture
Joined: 08/14/2010
MGoPoints: 7301
Where the hell do you work

Where the hell do you work and are they hiring?

 

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June 6th, 2012 at 3:49 PM
(Reply to #52) #51
UMich87
UMich87's picture
Joined: 09/07/2009
MGoPoints: 4142
Game Stop

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June 6th, 2012 at 10:21 AM
(Reply to #34) #52
ixcuincle
ixcuincle's picture
Joined: 08/11/2010
MGoPoints: 4547
A few weeks ago, I think you

A few weeks ago, I think you made a comment, along with other people, on how people were still playing NCAA 2006 to this very day. After this, I frantically looked everywhere for my old Xbox and NCAA 2006 game, to no avail. 

That was a damn good game, I miss it. 

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June 6th, 2012 at 12:12 PM
(Reply to #69) #53
Blueph
Blueph's picture
Joined: 07/08/2008
MGoPoints: 12760
$0.01

You can buy a used copy for a cent.

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June 5th, 2012 at 5:49 PM
#54
superduperblue
Joined: 06/05/2012
MGoPoints: 1
Doesn't it read

Overall Offense Defense

That would seem to make more sense.

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June 5th, 2012 at 5:54 PM
(Reply to #36) #55
Drill
Joined: 06/30/2008
MGoPoints: 707
Hmmm....

It looks like the site changed it to this now.  However, that still makes no sense -- how would a Michigan offense of 94 and defense of 91 add up to an overall of 97?

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June 6th, 2012 at 12:18 PM
(Reply to #38) #56
Blueph
Blueph's picture
Joined: 07/08/2008
MGoPoints: 12760
Aggregation

EA has historically been pretty bad at aggregating player ratings (or, at the very least, the aggregated rating isn't a simple average).  But I think part of the reason for this is that a team's aggregate strength isn't necessarily just the average of their offense and defense.  For instance, EA might rate Michigan's offense as better than 94/100 of the other offenses in the NCAA and their defense better than 91/100 of the defenses.  But since it's hard to have both a good offense and a good defense, this might make their team better than 97/100 of the teams in the NCAA.

Obviously some other factors go into these numbers, but I think this is the general idea.

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June 5th, 2012 at 6:17 PM
(Reply to #36) #57
wolverine_chemist
wolverine_chemist's picture
Joined: 05/17/2012
MGoPoints: 200
when i go to the link it says

when i go to the link it says overall, offense, special teams.  No defense rating is listed when i look at it

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June 5th, 2012 at 6:26 PM
(Reply to #40) #58
Drill
Joined: 06/30/2008
MGoPoints: 707
Yeah, weird

That makes no sense to show there, but it's what it is.  It also must mean that Michigan has a 98 or 99 defense if we have an overall of 97 with a 94 offense and 91 ST.

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June 5th, 2012 at 10:19 PM
(Reply to #41) #59
D-Rob4Prez
Joined: 02/21/2012
MGoPoints: 521
Maybe

the overall rating can be higher if both your offense and defense are top rated for each. I think both our O and D are in the 6.

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June 5th, 2012 at 5:51 PM
#60
AHM16
Joined: 10/02/2011
MGoPoints: 580
Neutral Site

Are they gonna actually incorporate neutral site games this year ? In the game last year I played a season with Oregon and had to play the first game at LSU NOT cowboy stadium

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June 6th, 2012 at 1:45 AM
(Reply to #37) #61
redwings8831
Joined: 03/05/2009
MGoPoints: 1132
Hope so. Not looking forward

Hope so. Not looking forward to our season starting in Alabama on the game.

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June 5th, 2012 at 6:46 PM
#62
swdude12
swdude12's picture
Joined: 09/01/2009
MGoPoints: 1548
  2004 was the best...I

 

2004 was the best...I played that non stop...League Daddy was the shit.

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June 5th, 2012 at 9:09 PM
(Reply to #46) #63
Louie C
Louie C's picture
Joined: 11/16/2009
MGoPoints: 3227
I have a soft spot for '07.

I have a soft spot for '07. Your receivers could actually burn a corner if he had the speed, and playing with option teams is SO much fun. Pat White was an absolute beast. I could play with WVU or Michigan all day

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June 5th, 2012 at 7:30 PM
#64
jrt336
Joined: 01/16/2009
MGoPoints: 4498
Terrible. I will not buy NCAA

Terrible. I will not buy NCAA this year, for the first time in a while. I will take a long hard look at Madden though. I think they have a new physics engine this year, but I don't think they have fantasy draft, which kinda sucks.

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June 5th, 2012 at 7:42 PM
#65
AmaizeingBlue
Joined: 09/01/2010
MGoPoints: 1539
Here are individual player

Here are individual player ratings for Michigan's offense.  I think Denard's ratings got worse... No dreads either.

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June 6th, 2012 at 1:42 AM
(Reply to #50) #66
Broken Brilliance
Broken Brilliance's picture
Joined: 09/07/2010
MGoPoints: 4101
silver lining

The split M logo has finally been replaced. At least ea sports "gets it" in regards to the current marketing image that the AD wants to trot out there.

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June 6th, 2012 at 3:21 PM
(Reply to #50) #67
spartanfan123
Joined: 02/15/2012
MGoPoints: 633
They don't have hemmingway's

They don't have hemmingway's new number either. 

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June 5th, 2012 at 8:26 PM
#68
smwilliams
smwilliams's picture
Joined: 08/20/2010
MGoPoints: 6160
Some Things

First, NCAA 12 was an excellent game that incorporated a lot of new features like Coaching Carousel and Conference Changes. The issue was the gameplay which after reading reviews of the demo sounds like the gameplay is improved, if not amazing.

Second, don't buy the game on release. Wait two weeks for truly dedicated individuals to re-do their rosters and adjust likenessess (Denard w/dreads), ratings, names, etc. and also for a decent slider set to emerge.

EDIT: I realize "excellent" may be a bit of a leap. It wasn't excellent, but it was good outside of the super-jumping LBs and psychic DBs, and the problems running screens, options, or play action. Okay, fine, the gameplay was bad. But, COACHING CAROUSEL. CONFERENCE REALIGNMENT. I loved that ish.

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June 5th, 2012 at 10:33 PM
#69
TBMWolverine
TBMWolverine's picture
Joined: 10/06/2009
MGoPoints: 126
Texas

I'm gonna chalk Texas as a 99 overall to be a typo because that is IMPOSSILBE. I watched seval of their games and Ash will be no higher than an 86. No chance they have a 99 OFFENSE. 

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June 5th, 2012 at 11:59 PM
#70
not TOM BRADY
not TOM BRADY's picture
Joined: 06/02/2012
MGoPoints: 23269
Delete

Delete

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June 5th, 2012 at 11:58 PM
#71
not TOM BRADY
not TOM BRADY's picture
Joined: 06/02/2012
MGoPoints: 23269
...

Everytime I buy this game I get really excited at first. Then I realize that Denard always gets hurt and it is the same game every year. They barely change anything.

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June 6th, 2012 at 1:31 AM
#72
yoyo
Joined: 02/11/2011
MGoPoints: 1330
My biggest issue

My biggest issue w/this game is the amount of time they force you to spend on recruiting.  In the old ones, you would just put recruiting points on players.  Now you have to work on each player individually and each one take a few each week and it's way too much of a time committment/

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June 6th, 2012 at 5:51 AM
#73
Half Blood Dutc...
Half Blood Dutch Prince's picture
Joined: 12/03/2011
MGoPoints: 1743
NCAA And Madden Aren't What They Used To Be

With Michael Vick and Denard, EA made it impossible to break away and run.

I haven't bought either game since the 2007 versions.

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June 6th, 2012 at 10:17 AM
#74
ixcuincle
ixcuincle's picture
Joined: 08/11/2010
MGoPoints: 4547
Virginia Tech 99 D. :o Been

Virginia Tech 99 D. :o 

Been in NCAA hibernation since 06, so I might get this one. Hear a lot of complaints about gameplay though, "rocket catching", inaccurate defensive play, et cetera 

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June 6th, 2012 at 12:30 PM
#75
Toledo_Wolverine
Toledo_Wolverine's picture
Joined: 11/23/2011
MGoPoints: 148
PS3

Hit me up for a game or dynasty. Gamertag: Ih8ohiost8

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June 6th, 2012 at 3:19 PM
#76
spartanfan123
Joined: 02/15/2012
MGoPoints: 633
These ratings are a joke. I

These ratings are a joke. I wont make a comment about Michigans, but LSU with 99 offense? MSU with a better offensive rating than their defensive rating? According to player ratings, MSU's best player is the kicker, and William Gholston isn't even in the top 10. I really hope these are still a work in progress

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June 6th, 2012 at 6:20 PM
#77
RickH
RickH's picture
Joined: 11/01/2009
MGoPoints: 915
The only time I ever really

The only time I ever really liked Madden and NCAA was drafting and recruiting.  I ended up always getting pissed off instead as things always seemed to be too random for me.

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June 6th, 2012 at 10:17 PM
#78
MGoBiLlUps88
MGoBiLlUps88's picture
Joined: 05/01/2012
MGoPoints: 39
whole roster is up

Michigan starts at 8:06 of video.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWi-6qqh1EA&feature=player_embedded

 

Not a fan of Denard only getting 90 ACC, oh well easy fix

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June 6th, 2012 at 10:18 PM
#79
MGoBiLlUps88
MGoBiLlUps88's picture
Joined: 05/01/2012
MGoPoints: 39
double post

delete

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