I am hoping Brian has a response to this as it was rather direct.
I am hoping Brian has a response to this as it was rather direct.
I guess you could say MaizeNBrew Dave didn't exactly agree with Brian. I always enjoy a good disagreement between these two.
I am preparing for an entire offseason of disagreement....
Brick where did you get a grenade?
Yea, about that... You might wanna lay low for a little while.
Yeah, there were horses, and a man on fire, and I killed a guy with a trident...
You don't say... (see grenade in post above)
Dude, he replied to the picture of a grenade with a quote about a grenade. Then added a picture of his own. What part of this is confusing?
(And yeah, I know it's an anchorman reference, but "rumble" always makes me think of the Sharks and the Jets, which i think anchorman spoofed anyway, so it still works)
NO COMMERCIALS..... NO MERCY!
I don't want to start rehashing my beefs with "The Process" because it won't benefit anyone so I'll just say this.
It was a good recruiting class, It probably would have been better if RR were retained/canned in November, and I still have no confidence in Dave Brandon as AD.
I also think the article completely missed the point but I'm sure Brian will address that.
also: a good way to increase readership of your moderately successful UM blog?
make direct attacks on the only one with real traffic.
So yeah, I'm one of the writers over at MaizenBrew, and can most assuredly tell you that the post written by Dave was not designed to increase traffic or link-troll over to Mgoblog. I don't wholeheartedly agree with Dave - this is the fun of having multiple writers on the same blog - and I'm not coming over here to explain or defend the post. It's out there, and there aspects that I generally feel are agreeable, and other aspects that I feel are a bit hyperbolic (is that a word?)
However, I've seen a few posts in this thread about how MnB wants traffic so we're attacking the super-power Michigan blog, and I can promise you this is not the case. Dave can come over here, if he wants, to defend his thesis or give reasons why he wrote the post the way he did, but a traffic bump from mgoblog links is not one of them.
I'm not saying thats definitively what you did, but appearances matter.
Also, M&B is a good enough blog, I'm not trying to hate - but maybe in the future you should think about poking the sleeping beast.
Are you saying Brian's opinions should go unchallenged by the rest of the Michigan Blogosphere because of its size? Does this mean that Brian should no longer take shots at the few blogs that may be bigger or get more clicks than MGoBlog?
I agree with Brian about the disaster that was "The Process". However, it also does seem like Brian has been searching for reasons to be negative. To me, this was most obvious when he was complaining about the black-ness of our staff. Its almost like because he said there was a "zero percent chance" Hoke would be hired, he is trying to put a negative spin on everything just to justify that quote. IMO, being wrong about the "zero percent chance" doesn't hurt Brian's credibility at all so there is no need for him to continue with this criticism for the sake of criticising.
It seems to me that at this point, mgoblog is appropriately positive about a recruiting class that ranks in the 20-25 range. The enduring gripe I've seen is the stark contrast over the media swooning over Hoke vs. the incessant negativity towards RR when he was here.
As for the process, Hoke was without question CHOICE C or lower, regardless of how you feel about him. I think it would've all gone smoother if it had just moved faster...less time lost recruiting, less appearance of us being desperate, etc. So yeah, I'd say that's a fair reason to be upset at Brandon. But I don't think the editors at this blog deserve to be called negative nancy.
People need to give up this idea that RR faced heavy scrutiny from the local press immediately after taking the job. The truth is, the vast majority of stories about him in the Michigan media during the 2007-08 offseason were positive. The WV press went after him, but that was dismissed as sour grapes. It was only after the 3-9 disaster that the knives started to come out. You can argue that it was too early for the media to turn on him then. but that doesn't change the fact that at this same point in his tenure, RR was well-received here.
There is no reason to think Brian is trying to keep credibility here and thus is being negative for negativity's sake. He thinks that Hoke should not have been considered for the job based on his record, and WOULD not have been considered but for his being a MICHIGAN MAN. This is not unreasonable.
The people being ridiculous right now are calling out 1) anyone who isn't saying HOKE IS GOD before he coaches a game and 2) anyone who notes this recruiting class is sort of mediocre (though I'm impressed Hoke pulled it together). There is reason to be pessimistic - it's not fun, but it's there.
When Maize and Brew supports the process primarily by arguing Hoke is a good coach (because they like him) and is a Michigan Man (which they like) and is a "stellar recruiter" (which LOL - no evidence of anything beyond competence). Be optimistic all day, but there's little evidence that they're right. They defend the process by attacking strawmen like "we could have had Harbaugh" - nobody intelligent argues that. They have no explanation for why Patterson wasn't seemingly considered, and their justification for Brandon's late decision was that RR's tenure logically hinged ON THE OUTCOME OF A SINGLE GAME. Give me a break. I truly hope Hoke works out, and I'm pretty optimistic, but believing he's a good guy doesn't make anyone who questioned this hire irrational.
My God. I would absolutely plus all my measely points down to zero in support of this post.
people don't consider it a possibility that the outcome of the game actually mattered to DB. A lot of the reasoning in said blog was based on that and was, in fact, reasonable.
If the outcome of the game actually mattered to Brandon then he's far dumber then most people think IMO.
This is a man who for all intents and purposes seemed quite competent and said all the right things during the season that one game didn't make a difference in the grand scheme of things. And it shouldn't.
Yes, the bowl game sucked, but there is no justification for leaving RR up in the air for 5-6 weeks before the game. Reality is, DB's decision should have been made the Sunday or Monday after the Ohio State game because that is when the season really ended. What exactly was RR supposed to prove in a bowl game against an SEC opponent (who was frankly a lot better than us), after a 5-6 week layoff with no f'n idea if he'd have a job come January 2nd?
It's assumed that the bowl game didn't matter because in no realm of the imagination should it have mattered. Either way, Brandon comes out looking bad, for A) nearly torpedoing the program by making a coaching change in January or B) Basing his opinion on the bowl game and going back on everything he said during the season, as well as being a complete moron.
titled "Not to be too picky." Check it out if you're interested.
You know what?
I pulled up the response which really didn't answer what I was saying and was prepared to answer it but was too frustrated so I decided to just delete my response and neg you instead.
I have no interest in digging up this argument again. It's done, Hoke's the coach and has done an admirable job so far. That is notwithstanding the actions of our AD, as opposed to because of.
Brandon may have been a great CEO but I can't in good faith trust him to be the athletic director of this university after that debacle. He can prove me wrong but it'll take a lot.
That's it for me. I'm keeping my mouth shut on coachin search/process talk. Too irritating for me.
Nice talking to ya
Ugh, that is crying out to be fisked. So many incorrect assumptions on which the article is based.
not really even close to the target.
He doesn't actually defend DB at all. All he says is "this class is damn good, so quit yer bitchin'"
Misleading title, but yes, some optimism never hurts in February
If you want to be the best, you have to...take shots at the best? I suppose that's one way to try to achieve success in the U-M blogosphere...
the Mark Dantonio philosophy?
Well no denying where he stands. I think that has been covered many times, and even in such strong terms by posters here. At this point, I'm in the camp that I no longer care. If we end up kicking ass, then everyone is happy and no one cares about the process. If we don't, then heads will roll and we can start this debate up again and learn from out mistakes.
I for one, want to be happy and not care about the process.
At this point, I think most of us are just burnt out and want to watch a team play, you know.. play well.
I'm all up for blog on blog mega super awesomeness discussions.. but this whole issue -- probably for the better -- has me saying 'meh, time to get some food and get back to work' more than anything else.
how did that article really address the concerns about the process?
Yeah I think Brady Hoke did a good job salvaging the class from potential disaster but we're not working for the Hozni Mubarak information department here, look at the offer lists of the kids we signed.
They may all turn out to be great football players but within the paradigm of recruiting and signing day it's at best a good class and by no means a great class. And Maize'n'Brew Dave doesn't know any better what the future holds for them and us than we do.
The whole argument about the process being bad is that an earlier decision would have assisted Hoke or any other incoming head coach tremendously. I don't think it would have been a superb class even if Hoke had come in on December 5th or something but it could very well have been a better one.
What's tough is that last year's class was easily Rodriguez's weakest. Years three and four of the Hoke regime is going to have to be where Hoke proves his mettle.
"It's a great class because it fills the holes on defense" ignores the reality that these recruits will fill holes in 2-3 years, not next year. Next years holes will be filled by RR recruits that are no longer freshmen...
I think Hoke will do well here at Michigan but I also think RR's team was ready to turn the corner next year regardless of who the HC was and with or without GERG. But I'm excited to see what Mattison will do with some really talented players on defense because even though I think GERG could've done better next year with more experience in the secondary, Mattison is in a whole 'nother league.
Maize and Brew seems very passionate and heartfelt but completely uninformed about the quality of our most recent recruiting classes.
Try to pair these two statements from that post:
We recruited very well in 2008, 2009, and 2010. The 2011 class, to use the dramatic language usually employed for RR, was probably the 'worst in Michigan history' (that being the history of more-than-just-Lemming recruiting rankings...2002 or so).
I don't think it was an objectively lousy class. I like a lot of the players, and have high hopes for just about every guy. But if we are judging according to the high historical standards of our program, it was a down year. That is ok. There were many factors that made it a tremendously challenging year. For someone to think Brandon's timing was not one of those factors...that's just willfully illogical. Of course it was. That doesn't necessarily mean Brandon made the wrong long-term decision for the program, but it most certainly did not help either RR or Hoke try to assemble and hang onto a class.
I'm glad to see that people are now so adamant about program loyalty--it's a helpful trait. But this argument seems to get some very basic factual assumptions wrong.
Recruiting Demar Dorsey isn't great.. It's not good to recruit kids who have a snowballs chance in hell of being eligible because they are too lazy to get a 2.8
Your ignorance is not only astounding but also offensive. I feel bad for you.
Offensive? Being eligible in the NCAA is not difficult. Getting through the NCAA clearinghouse isn't difficult.
I know, I did both.
The point, you missed it.
How has our recruiting been great. Name one aspect of our team which played well in any big game.
I question your claim that you ever cleared the NCAA clearinghouse and not because you were 'lazy' you're merely lacking intellectual capacity. THAT was the point. You outright painted every single person who ever failed to make it past the clearinghouse as lazy. That is incredibly ignorant. People have learning disabilities, people have extenuating circumstances and some people just don't have the intellectual capacity to do so. You stating they are simply lazy is irresponsible, ignorant, and offensive. I'm going to stop replying to you and avoid your comments like the plague going forward because as I once heard "never argue with fools because at a distance you can't tell who's who."
If you'd like I can link you to my bio which I think is still archived on my school page. I think it's funny you'd find it hard to believe I made it through the clearinghouse, as every single division one athlete, has.
Demar Dorseys problem was academics clearly were not a priority.
And those with learning disabilities are treated differently than those without. Extenuating circumstances can lead to an appeal of findings, but unless you can explain how there was no way you could maintain a 2.0 or whatever minimum it was (this was 6 years ago for me) and how you somehow got screwed of graduating high school..
You sir are a jackass, who definitely was not a collegiate student athlete, maybe in club quidditch, but not varsity.
I'd say Denard did at least decent overall when he was not injured, and great in some if you would count Notre Dame, so QB should be there. And if you consider context, true sophomore first year starting QB, I would say that is tremendous.
and I generally don't read that site, so I'll comment here.
1) How is our recruiting class "phenominal"? We lost the highest rated kids (Hart, Frost, Crawford...) and replaced them with lower tier B10 switchers (no need to call them out, and I love them just the same!).
2) Brandon did hold up the process, that's for certain. I understand Harbaugh was Plan A, and changed his mind, but why fly to Louisana and have this Les Miles BS? Why not immediately hire Hoke? Why say that he was hiring a national search firm and didn't necessairly want a "Michigan Man"?
3) As an aside, why does Brandon get absolute faith from anybody? He was the CEO of an average to bad (maybe 3rd in market share of the Big 3 National Pizza Chains) pizza company? He had no athletic department or school administrative experience, other than being a rich dude who hung out with UM bigwigs.
4) I think RR knew he was toast after the OSU game, that's why the akward Josh Grobin incident arose.
5) He's making the arguement that Brandon knows this and that because he played for Bo. I'm sick of that crap.
i was a waiter once, the boss caught me pissing in the soup and i knew he planned to fire me. i went into the dining room, turned on some Groban and held hands with the bus boys and hostesses.
i was still fired.
Dominos is the second largest chain in the USA and has stores in over 60 countries.
1.) It really wasn't a phenominal recuriting class by anymeans. However given the situation that Hoke had to work with once he got here, what he did with the recuriting class can certainly be argued as phenominal.
2.) To do proper dillgence? As he said this isn't some quick decision... the impact of his hire is obviously huge and will be huge for years and years to come. So he interviewed people, one of them was likely Les Miles. Now what if, and I know this always seems so foreign to this board. But what if he interviewed both candidates (and he claimed he interviewed more too) and Hoke was simply who he thought was better for the job?
3.) I don't think he gets Absolute Faith at all. There is a difference between trust, giving one the benefit of the doubt, and "Absoulte faith." Just because one doesn't agree with your opinion of Dave Brandon doesn't mean they have absolute faith in him. (Not saying you feel that way either.)
4.) Just think of RR was fired after the OSU game and Michigan waxed MSU in the bowl. I don't think that the decision came down to the bowl game, but I think it certainly had the possibility of him saviing his job.
5.) That one I completely agree with.
how ready you are to move on with UM football. For most of us, there is no choice.
I am not going to change allegance, but continue to have open and festering wounds and a high level of disgust about the ugliness unleashed in the media and fanbase from the RR era.
I need time to accept the new staff/direction and will give the benifit of the doubt, but I can not kill the idea in me that thinks RR was exactly right about this team's future. I need to see it on the field.
I do not want Hoke to become the light beer version of LLoyd Carr.
That was my first time visiting that site, and it will be my last. My biggest problem was when he slighted the need for diversity on the coaching staff. Come on man, that is the most common of common sense, especially in what is probably the most diverse city in MI. That was just complete ignorance
wow, I didnt realize so many people on this site were against diversity, kinda sad
Perhaps they just like real diversity, not the fashionable ivory tower "diversity" which is defined as seperate groups of superficially similar people who purportedly think the same way.
But I think it might help. I don't think anybody's against diversity. But in some weird way, forcing diversity isn't diversity. And people who make one factor "the" defining requirement are not doing much for the spirit of diversity. Diversity is appreciating the differences in each other and seeing value in them. The only way diversity is being impeded is if a certain factor is being wrongfully discriminated against, not if there isn't a high enough occurrence of that factor. That's just circumstance, and there are a lot of other factors being considered in this than that one. I think that's why people don't like the diversity criticism.
I pretty much feel like this is a fight that I gotta roll wit my boy. I don't know Brian personally, but I feel what he's talking about 85% of the time. You my boy blue!
I'm sick of this argument. DB did what he said he was going to do all along, flawed as his process may be. Brady Hoke solidified the recruiting class quickly, and did it better than expected for the time he had to work with. So, yes, I do think DB's "process" was flawed, but it worked out pretty well in the end. Can we just start looking forward to the spring game now???!!!
Other than stealing recruits from Minny, Indiana and Vandy...I mean, just think about those programs for a second...Minnesota, Indiana and Vandy. I think there is casue for concern with this.
I know Hoke had very limited time, but I take issue with the claim that Hoke did a great job. I wouldn't have an issue with someone saying that Hoke should get a wash with this BECAUSE of Brandon and his damned Process, but this is a poor class by M standards.
After the previous three years. It's not like we've been going head to head against Ohio State, USC, and Texas and winning many battles. (We've gotten practically no one Ohio State has wanted from Ohio). And have been losing ground recruiting against Penn State, MSU and those level teams. I don't really see the difference between snake-oiling someone from Purdue, or snake-oiling someone from...Purdue. Neither is good. But if it continues next year, like it has for the last four, then there's reason to worry.
"And have been losing ground recruiting against Penn State, MSU and those level teams."
have we? we RRod had Zettel all but locked up, Dee Hart persuaded from Bama, and Kris Frost who chose Auburn, Jake Fisher who went to Oregon... I could keep going...
Please do, since none of those were definites anyway.
Frost wanted to go to Auburn while his parents wanted him to go to Michigan. Dee left Michigan before Rodriguez was fired. He was never locked up and wanted to go where HaHa was going. Zettel was locked up? Got some proof for that one? Fisher was locked up.
In addition to the names mentioned above, who despite your feelings all were either committed to UM or rumored to be silent (save for Zettel)
Crawford went to Miami...
Lucien went to UCLA...
Furthermore, there are other names that The Process affected, such as Avery Walls.
And we replace these kids who are going to Auburn, Bama, Penn State, and Miami, with kids that would have been going to Minnesota, Indiana, and Vanderbilt. BUT OUR CLASS RULEZZ OMG HOKEAMANIA!!!!!
2 of the commits Hoke did procure, Taylor & Rawls (and to a lesser extent Bryant & Poole), were likely to come to UM regardless of who the coach was.
I'm not saying Hoke did a bad job, he didn't. But to insist that the class would not have been better is DUMB. yes, dumb.
Is the class poor by typical Michigan recruiting standards? Sure. Is it poor considering we changed coaches less than 4 weeks before signing day? I don't think so. I was watching Rivals recruiting rankings during the whole process, and before Hoke started bringing in recruits, we were ranked 41st in the country and either 6th or 7th in the Big Ten(I can't remember which). Now that the class is finalized, Rivals has us rated 21st in the country and 3rd in the Big Ten, behind only tOSU and Nebraska. I'd say that was a pretty strong finish.
It is weak for UM standards because of The Process - not because of Hoke or Rodriguez - it's because of Brandon. This is not a logical stretch at all. Retain Rodriguez = stronger class. Fire Rodriguez sooner since you KNOW Hoke is available = stronger class.
Who is it gonna be mgoblog or maizenbrew,. Let the bitchslapping begin !
I think it's a little early to 'omg Hoke is a snake-oilin' mofo'
This class is not even ranked by ESPN in the top 25, as compared to 2008 in which they M was 13th, 10th in 2009 and 14th last season (yes, admitting certain people did not make it to campus), but this isn't an amazing class by any stretch.
This class is worse off now than it would have been, but whateves
In general, I am a fan of Brian's analysis. I enjoy his candor, humor and cynical eye. My take on the Maize and Brew article is that they are sick of the "What if" argument. Brian, and others (including myself) have been posing a lot of "what if" questions about our program i.e. what would have happened if RR had stayed? What if Hoke was hired a month sooner? What if this or that recruit hadn't decomitted/comitted to the program.
The fact of the matter is, we will never know. We have the coach we have, we got him when we got him, the recruits that signed with us this week are the recruiting class of 2011 and that, for the most part, is not going to change.
Part of intelligent discourse is open debate which is another thing I like about this website, but to continually raise questions that perhaps undermine what the program is doing is perhaps a bit counterintuitive considering how and why we got to this point.
I am all for criticizing the product if the results aren't there. If Michigan lays a big egg against our closest rivals again and is a non-factor in the conference, I say let the shit hit the fan. Until then however, I think giving the current organization room to cut a path for itself is the best move for those who follow the program as closely as the people in this forum so charismatically do.
Here's to a great year, Go Blue!
If if's and but's were candy and nut's then we would all have a merry fucking Christmas.
I don't think people are saying there's anything wrong with a different opinion. I just don't think that this is a particularly well-reasoned one. I read most of the Maize n Brew post, but I should have stopped reading after this paragraph:
Just longer. And with some admitted overhype of the recruiting class. It could be said to be a great recovery in a horrible situation, but not objectively great. The #21 recruiting class next year will get no one excited.
Though part of that is a lot of wishful thinking on what the class was headed to actually be too. Fisher is most likely in the fold, and maybe Crawford. But Frost has flat out said he wanted to go to Auburn, his parents wanted him to go to Michigan; Zettel didn't even wait to see if Rich would bs around before he committed to PSU, and never wavered; and Hart has been flip-flopping for months, causing meltdowns. We'll never know who was coming, and how much was Rich leaving, and how much was all the losing, which would have left Rich on the hot seat if he had stayed. We were middle of the Big Ten, low 20s - mid-30s when Rich was still recruiting. It seemed like a reach to say all this talent was coming for sure, and we were headed to a top ten recruiting class. It would have been a few slots better, but it would have been our fourth straight below standards class in any regard. Next Year's recruiting will be the sign of program direction.
Good for Maize and Brew. MGOBLOG is good, but it's refreshing to hear someone else with another opinion. Also, just because someone interprets something differently doesn't make them uninformed.
who call out "the process" and say that we would be fine if we just cleaned out our defensive staff, how do you know that option wasnt on the table? db could have told rich to fire everyone on that side of the ball, while rich for whatever reason (because of loyality or being fed up with michigan, or something) decided not to do that.
people look at a two-day meeting and draw their own conclusions about how rich was fired, when in reality we don't know the circumstances, what was discussed, and what, if any, ultimatums existed.
I've heard the ultimatum theory before. You are right, no one knows what options RR was presented with, but I don't think there was a lot of doubt whether or not he was going. To think that he was offered an option to can his whole defensive staff and bring in a DC guru I think is highly unlikely. If was was an option, I really don't see why RR wouldn't subscribe to that. In his interviews he has been very candid about his disappointment in not being able to finish the job. If DB would have said, "Fire GERG and live to coach another day," I feel like he probably would have gone with it.
GERG, theoretically, would not have been the only one fired. so would gibson and dews, who both have been with rich for a long time.
anyways, thats ancillary to my point im trying to make. the thing is, people who complain about the process do so by saying that "if only we had a new defensive staff..." what they fail to realize is that could have been a viable option that was turned down. no one knows. but to bitch and moan about something that may or may not have happened seems, at this point, completely unnecessary.
There is so much we don't know. It almost seems like the frustration of Brandon being correct that others had only 5% of his total information, has spilled over into speculation without basis. This is especially apparent among people who were dogmatically pro-Rich.
People who choose to take Brandon totally at face value that Rich still was in the running through the Gator Bowl, might be totally right. If that was the case, there is really no griping that can be done about any process defects. We had a coach that coached himself out of town via on field performance while given everything he was publicly promised to make his case. What's the big deal?
And to be honest, I agree more with his points than with Brian's. I'm not one for bashing someone on their site, or even bashing at all, but there are a lot of positives now:
A coaching staff with a healthy balance in philosophy- defense first (big sigh of relief), molding strategies to talent rather than talent to strategies (Borges-Denard, we'll see how much)
A great, proven, and respected DC
A quality recruiting class that matches our vast deficiencies (notice the quick change in recruiting directions when Hoke came on board)
No disrespect to RR or anyone else, and of course, we'll see what happens. But I'm breathing a lot easier than I was before the change. And I'm a lot more optimistic. At this point, I'm not going to bash the process or the results.
I have to say that I agree with most of what Dave is saying ("great" is a little strong for the recruiting class, but I think people here are under-selling it). The most critical point there is that Brandon may well have kept RichRod if we played well in that bowl game. It seems like a lot of people here don't credit that as a possibility, but I tend to believe it. That debacle would have been too hard of a sell, even with defensive changes, when the offense wasn't performing either.
I'm replying to you because I've been picking on Nate Volk too much lately, though he made much the same point.
The problem with The Process was not that he might have kept RR if M hadn't laid such an egg in the Gator Bowl, and so DB wouldn't have been able to sell his retention to the alumni or whatever. On that, I think you're probably right. The problem was that he didn't appear to have a contingency plan in place for that possibility. So when he fired RR after the Gator Bowl and then announced a "national search," there were only two conclusions:
I think reasonable people who disagree about other matters can agree that neither option makes DB look particularly competent.
Finally, to the extent that The Process can be linked to The Results of the Process, I think it's fair to say that if you were told in advance of The Process that the Results of the Process would be that we would get a sub-.500 coach who has had two good years at minor conferences, and would lose most of our top-ranked recruits, you would think The Process was a fucking disaster.
Now, the sub-.500 coach we happened to get is a helluva good guy by all accounts, and he hit the equivalent of a 9th innning grand slam in the 7th game of the World Series by landing Mattison. But I personally can hold two sets of thoughts simultaneously in my head, and I don't think they are contradictory:
have a contingency plan. We've heard rumors for a long time that DB liked Hoke. And after everything Hoke has done, including bring in Mattison, who wouldn't?
It doesn't have to be: either Hoke was the guy all along and we were viciously lied to, or DB had no clue. Perhaps he had a good idea he had Hoke, a guy he was confident in, in the bag, and then he went out, with that confidence, looking for other options when the search came. Sounds like a pretty good situation to me. And honest.
Remember how there was supposedly a meeting with Hoke right when the search began? And then after DB flew around talking to other guys?
Sounds like the formal interview took place, DB did his search, and he went away with the best available option, one he was previously very confident in. Just because I wasn't confident in Hoke when I'd only seen cursory stats and heard Brian's opinion, doesn't mean he isn't amazing. And he's made a lot of pretty sweet moves since he came to town. In fact, I like everything he's said and done.
I'm not so down on the process now either.
I can only deal with discussion so many times...
No one can say that the DB process was good. Sorry. There is no argument.
No one can argue that our class would have been better if a coach had been in place in early December instead of middle of January.
Also, no one can argue that Hoke pulled off a minor miracle by securing the class that he did.
All of those are true.
Except, you know, no. None of those are absolutes.
Ohio State Notes Yes I'm Blatantly Stealing Mgoblog's Format
Oh no, difference of opinions! Run for the hills!!!
And for reference, the alt-text:
Fun fact: if you say this every time a professor does something to a complex-number equation that drops the imaginary part, they'll eventually move the class to another room and tell everyone else except you.
This quote from that article is SPOT-ON, and really summed up why RR should have been canned.....
"21 points scored in Michigan's last two games while surrendering 89. 0-6 against Michigan's biggest rivals in games that were less competitive each year Michigan played them"
I hate that 0-6 stat for two reasons. 1) I hate that we haven't beaten MSU or OSU in at least three years. 2) Where's Notre Dame?!?! I, and I know many others, consider ND to be the second biggest rival. ND at least has to be considered an equal rival. But I guess 2-7 doesn't sound as bad as 0-6.
2-7 sounds pretty bad to me.
Or 2-8 when you talk about rivalry games and bowl games (or bowl game in this case). Any way you slice it, it comes up bad.
Listen, if the problem with RR was 0-6 in the biggest rivalry games, then this process should not have started in January. Period. We had the same 0-6 record in early December as we did in early January.
The Process is a lie and I have a hard time being buying any other belief. Admittedly I base it solely on those early Jan pressers that DB gave. The man was totally out of character, no smooth pimp hand and well planned corporate announcements. He had wild eyes, looked like he was only awake due to the fact he was injecting himself directly with expresso and was snippy and bitchy to reporters.
I didn't see a process, I saw "Harbaugh took the 49ers job and Les isn't returning my calls, aaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhh.........".
He had all of December to find a primary target* and if Hoke really was that target he could have announced Hoke 5 minutes after firing RR. Actually more like 48 hours because you don't want it to seem like you were preparing to fire RR prior to 1 Jan (due to buyout issues), but he could have had Hoke with 48 hours and a pseudo coaching search. No need for a week of twisting in the wind.
*Even if his mind wasn't made up to fire RR, he should have accepted that there was a nonzero chance he'd fire RR post bowl and begun some at least low level searching and reflection on candidates.
This class is kind of ass. We didn't fill some serious needs and over half our class is mid/low three stars according to Rivals. That's not a knock on Hoke or Rodriguez, they did their best considering the circumstances.
OP should probably link to the story, not the main page of the blog...
Reading the comments on that article makes me greatly appreciate our community here.
The number of people regurgitating the "Michigan Man", "spread doesn't work in the Big Ten", and "didn't understand the rivalry" meme made me sick.
A search for the term "Michigan Man" in the post and comments shows about 5 results, 3 of which are found in a comment specifically denouncing the need for a "Michigan Man" as coach.
A search for "Understand the rivalry" and "Understands the Rivalry" nets zero results.
A search for "Spread Doesn't Work" nets one result, which is immediately shot down by numerous posters.
The article itself talks about him not understanding the rivalry.
There is more than one instance of someone saying the spread doesn't work in the big ten, with the asinine argument of "how many spread teams have one big ten championships?" as well as saying that the "spread can work in weaker conferences". Apparently the SEC and Pac 10 are weaker conferences, and Auburn and Oregon only went undefeated to the championship because of their conference.
And there are references to people being former players, etc. continuing the Michigan Man meme.
Just because people didn't use the exact phrases you Ctrl+f'd for doesn't mean that they're not in the threads.
Maybe next time read the comments before trying to rebuke my point?
I don't see a single instance of anybody saying that he "Didn't Understand the Rivalry." Not in the post, not in the comments. The closest it gets is the fact that Michigan was 0-6 against MSU and OSU.
Also, the one discussion about the spread not working in this conference has one dude who makes that assertion, and 5 other guys refuting it.
The large syntax around the "being former players" is that they understand college football - not that they're "Michigan Men."
I'm guessing that we're more on the same side of the fence than maybe you think - I'm not defending Dave's post. I will defend the readers and commenters as not being as dumb as you make them out to be - you're grossly over-generalizing a few points that are either out of context, or immeditely refuted by a number of people.
0-6 against Michigan's biggest rivals in games that were less competitive each year Michigan played them.
Conveniently ignoring Notre Dame, the fact that these teams were better than us on paper each year we faced them, and continuing the "doesn't understand the rivalry" meme...
You have to stretch it pretty far to go from "0-6 against rivals MSU and OSU" to "OMG DERP RODRIGUEZ DOESN'T UNDERSTAND THE RIVALRIES."
If you don't believe that his record against MSU and OSU contributed to his dismissal, well, I don't know what to tell you...
What exactly is wrong with pointing out a fact - that RR went 0-6 against those teams? I don't think anyone expected, back in December 2007, that we'd be 0-fer against those two.
It seems to me that you are still irrationally attached to a fired coach.
Notre Dame isn't really a rivalry that has a lot of cachet anymore IMHO. I realize they recruit nationally and field a decent team every three or four years but really we should be beating them the majority of the time and wins over "The Schematic Advantage" and "Pirate Crist" don't exactly count for a lot when you're taking B10 ass kickings.
Heck I'd trade a win over the Domers for a win over any B10 program out there.
The big limitation to the ND rivalry is that it isn't a conference game and accordingly, it doesn't end up affecting our season that much. If they were in the Big Ten, it'd be considerably bigger.
I give you credit just for attempting to wade through the comments. I stay away from SBN simply because the layout is awful.
I was going to make a comment about how he is completely ignoring the many top recruits we lost because of the way the switch was handled (Kris Frost, Jake Fisher, Dallas Crawford, Wayne Lyons, etc.), and that, at least for me, but I'm assuming the majority of us who still regret how DB handled the situation, the issue wasn't the firing of RR or the hiring of Hoke (in fact, with the Mattison addition, I'm pretty optimistic for this team), but the fact that, if DB insisted Hoke was his first choice, despite waiting two weeks to make the hire. That either means one of two things: Brandon himself is an idiot for waiting two weeks and losing recruits to hire someone that would've jumped from day one, or Brandon thinks we're idiots for buying his BS that Hoke was the first choice from the start.
After seeing how blissfully ignorant that community was though I decided my argument would fall on deaf ears.
Fair enough, though from what I'm seeing by that post, the comments I complained about above, and the vast majority of the comments lauding him for a great post, I get the feeling logical members of that community are few and far between.
but what you're talking about is reason. Logic is a series of irrefutable conclusions starting from, presumably, correct assumptions.
There are major holes in your reasoning. Just because Hoke may have been DB's first choice IF he fired RR, that doesn't mean he necessarily should have before the bowl. I'm beginning to agree that this coaching decision was way more important than a few recruits. Hoke pulled in some different recruits that prove this: oodles of linebackers (a good add) and at least a higher percentage of defensive players, which we needed.
As for the coaching decision, DB wanted to get it right. I'll agree it was a very CEO-like way to do it. He waited for all the information to be in. But it was also a very intelligent and reasonable way to do it, and the ramifications would affect MI football for years to come.
Also, think of it this way: The reality is if DB's man had been Harbaugh, people would've thought it perfectly natural to accept that DB had a strong inclination that JH would come, but also that he was going to explore the necessary options at the time of a hire, and praised him. It's that it was Hoke that people assume DB "had made up his mind and is a moron" or DB "had no other options," just because Hoke wasn't their choice. And that isn't a reasonable assumption.
The hole in that reasoning is, DB prob is just that thorough. And at the end of the day he got a guy he wanted.
The layout doesn't look too different from this one.
I feel it's a lot easier to follow the flow of comments here. More clearly marked, less clutter at the bottom of each post, and less people writing epic novels as responses so you don't get all of this white space to the left of a reply making it impossible to see exactly who they're replying to.
Just my opinion. I'm sure if I followed it more I'd get used to it but that would involve me actually enjoying the content at SBN which I generally don't...
This headline is over-the-top. They didn't "call out" Brian. They just disagreed. That's okay. People do not have to agree on anything. Brian, believe it or not, gets things wrong sometimes (like practically guaranteeing that Denard would transfer). This community suffers when people are afraid to disagree and just start parroting everything Brian says. It makes things pretty boring.
Whether or not "the Process" was sound, the bottom line is that the most nightmarish recruiting outcome did not occur and we salvaged the class reasonably well.
Sure, "the most nightmarish outcome" would have been losing all of our recruits. This was also never a possibility.
A more realistic worst case scenerio was to lose half of our most coveted recruits and then scramble to replace them with some kids who were of good quality, but not as highly rated, and that's exactly what happened. Aside from Barnett, there really weren't any surprises.
I'm certainly excited to see what our guys can do for us, but losing Hart, Zettel, Frost, and Crawford hurts.
Three weeks ago, people were talking about us having a class of 10-12 players. That represented the worst-case scenario. We ended up signing 20.
You mean to say that with 100's of regular vistors on this site, that there were some that envisioned scenerios that were unrealistic? How could that be? :/
The worst case didn't quite happen, but we weren't far off. We lost some of our highest rated talent and replaced them with mid level kids. A few bad seasons isn't going to tarnish the Michigan brand to the point where we can't steal recruits from Minnesota, Purdue, and Vanderbilt or win recruiting battles with the likes of Arizona and Pittsburgh at the last minute.
Our situation isn't dire, but it was never going to be dire.
And don't interpret this as running down the kids we got. I will support them as much as I would have supported the class if it was the 20 highest rated kids in the country. But let's not pretend that this isn't one of the least heralded recruiting classes in recent history.
The M&B column is flawed in several ways, but I think he makes some good points.
The way I see it is, criticisms of "The Process" are two-fold:
1) DB knew he was going to fire RR at the end of the Big Ten season but he waited until after the bowl game for reasons unknown. Therefore, he is clearly an idiot who doesn't understand football or college athletics or basic arithmetic.
2) Either (a) DB knew from the outset that he wanted Hoke without having ever met him, and "The Process" was just a sham meant to appease the fan base; or (b) DB is so incompetent that he just went with a guy whom he knew would take the job, even though said guy has never seen a football before and doesn't know how to coach.
Regarding #1: Perhaps I'm "misremembering" things here, but wasn't Brian still on board-- though wavering-- with Rodriguez getting another year after the OSU game, but after the bowl game he essentially wrote that keeping Rodriguez could no longer be justified? Is it so hard to believe DB felt the same way? Some will say that it should have been obvious that RR needed to go after the OSU game. That's a fair opinion, but I don't think it's unreasonable for someone to have felt otherwise. Things weren't where they needed to be, obviously, but there had been some positives and I'm sure at that point DB would have preferred to ride it out with RR rather than put the program through another coaching transition if at all possible. That possiblity pretty much desolved by mid-way through the third quarter of the Gator Bowl.
Regarding #2a: It's possible, I suppose, but I don't think it's plausible. If Brandon's plan was to broom RR and bring in Hoke from the beginning, he could have easily done so after the OSU game (as many say he should have); the fact that he didn't do this, give that it would have been preferable to what actually happened, belies the assumption that this was his intent. If you accept that DB was willing to stick it out with RR until the Gator Bowl debacle, but you assume that immediately thereafter he knew Hoke was his one and only, then what you are assuming is that DB had his heart absolutely set on a mid-level head coach with a mediocre record without having ever met him, even at the exclusion (at that time) of Jim Harbaugh. Again, I don't think that's plausible. Here you may object that DB himself was told all sorts of glowing things about Hoke by others before he had actually spoken with him; true, but isn't that part of "The Process?" And if he settled on Hoke in large part because of what his peers said about him, doesn't that belie the charge that "The Process" was a sham?
Regarding #2b: This is probably the most common charge brought against Dave Brandon: he's a moron who couldn't hire a good coach so he hired a crappy one. But this argument relies on the premise that Hoke is not a good coach, or at least not as good as some other coaches Brandon could have gotten. There are reasonable arguments to be made here-- perhaps Hoke will fail miserably here, or perhaps he will have marginal success where someone else could have been the next Fielding Yost-- but keep in mind that this, in itself, is not an indictment of "The Process;" it is a criticism of the final outcome.
And I think that's pretty much where most DB critics are at; they don't like the fact that Platonic-Form-of-Football-Coach is not at the helm of their Michigan Wolverines following three disastrous seasons, and someone must be held accountable. In this, the buck stops with Dave Brandon. Similarly, Brian made has made it clear for the past three years that he doesn't think Brady Hoke has any business being discussed as a serious candidate for the Michigan job, let alone being the guy they hire. If we accept that Hoke was not even close to the best choice of all feasible choices, and yet we are faced with the reality that Brady Hoke has been chosen, then we must find some explanation-- hence we get all of these critical theories about how flawed "The Process" was and how incompetent Dave Brandon is. As much as I love Brian Cook and mgoblog (and seriously, I think Brian is a breath of fresh air in the sports media world, and I am a total mgoaddict), I find the rigidity in his thinking here rather uncharacteristic: Never is there any doubt that he has been 100% dead-on bullseye right in his evaluation of Brady Hoke as a football coach. Neither is there doubt that the other options he has considered superior on the basis of record and age alone either weren't as feasibly hired as he assumed or simply weren't actually superior when evaluating coaches on a Gestalt basis using several varied criteria. In other words, Brian assumes he knows more about coaches he has never met, nor whose personal and professional references he has never heard, than a man who has met them and heard those references, or Brian assumes he knows more about what it takes to be a successful head coach than Dave Brandon does. Heck, maybe he does know more about what it takes to be a successful head coach than DB does, but I think to assume that DB is an incompetent boob at this point is more than a little unfair, and to continue to take petty jabs at him and at Hoke like this is rather immature. As flawed as the M&B column was, I think that's where it hit the nail on the head-- Stop with the sniping and the moaning already and move on.
I think the OP needs to chill. MBrew just took a mild, half-serious poke at Brian. In a way, it's a compliment. And it's certainly nothing to get upset about.
not just the site... basketball review is now top of the page
So, does everyone who disagrees with you have an "agenda" or just Brian?
where misopogon kicked other blog guy's ass.