I have some questions on the offense.
Yes the title sucks, not sure how to make the title great and informative based on my questions. But nonetheless I would like to hear some feedback on the following.
1. When Zinter is healthy, how does the line look? I assumed he would center but I think Vastardis has that locked down. Is it Hayes and Steuber at Tackle with Zinter at guard and Filiaga/Keegan at the other spot?
2. Without Bell, which WR sees the biggest increase in his role? Luckily I think Sainristil, Wilson and Henning are all capable in the slot. Will we see more Baldwin/CJ outside with one of the other 3 guys in the slot? Maybe Donavan Edwards more in a WR mode at times?
3. Can Cade run? I know that Seth lamented the fact that our quarterbacks are not pulling on the read option. I’m not familiar with how Cade was in high school, is he a capable runner that we would have some success with?
September 8th, 2021 at 2:48 PM ^
1. Zinter is a monster.
2. Baldwin... great deep ball wr. Boy did we need this transfer with Bell going down.
3. Yes, but I doubt they do it...why risk it.
September 8th, 2021 at 2:50 PM ^
Especially after X. Worthy transferred..
September 8th, 2021 at 5:46 PM ^
Thanks again admissions office
September 8th, 2021 at 3:54 PM ^
If you aren't going to run your QB, then don't run an offense that depends on the threat of a running QB to be successful.
September 8th, 2021 at 8:12 PM ^
I have a feeling they will use Villari when they actually want to run the QB. Seems like a very Harbaugh thing to do. Probably worried about Cade getting injured.
September 9th, 2021 at 9:41 AM ^
This is a terrible idea. Telegraphing on which plays the QB will run via substitution is even dumber than running plays designed to work because of reads without the actual reads. If my fourth grade daughter knows what's coming, it's never going to work.
September 8th, 2021 at 3:54 PM ^
If you aren't going to run your QB, then don't run an offense that depends on the threat of a running QB to be successful.
September 8th, 2021 at 4:13 PM ^
You can say that again.....
September 8th, 2021 at 4:15 PM ^
I upvoted both of those comments.
September 8th, 2021 at 6:12 PM ^
Listen, you don't have to run the QB in this offense. Think of it as something you save up for for that one time you really, really need him to run and then when it is called, they will likely screw it up since they never do it. However, it is right there on the play sheet just waiting, waiting for years, but just waiting, man, it will be great when that play is used.
September 8th, 2021 at 7:41 PM ^
Listen, that is not how good offenses work/are run. You get good by running the different options well and forcing the defense to consider every component. And you employ everything that you are good at.
September 9th, 2021 at 6:53 PM ^
Very true. Unless you are thinking.......outsidethebox.
September 8th, 2021 at 7:57 PM ^
Same. It was worth it.
September 8th, 2021 at 4:39 PM ^
I believe his name is “Zak Kinter” per the front page article.
September 9th, 2021 at 3:54 PM ^
However it's spelled, I'm glad he doesn't play for Indinia.
September 8th, 2021 at 5:21 PM ^
3. Because they won't be able to run the ball against anyone who is good without having a QB run game part of the offense?
September 8th, 2021 at 6:52 PM ^
"3. Yes, but I doubt they do it...why risk it."
Man, I'm so tired of this. Tons of teams run their QBs. Clemson ran Trevor a lot. The last couple years we've supposedly not been running the QB to protect them. How'd that work for Milton? And we were protecting Milton bc we had no depth? McNamara is better! Mccarthy is inconsistent but would be fine. Shea got hurt passing. If running the QB was really such a sure way to injure them, good teams wouldn't do it! I don't think we beat teams like Wisconsin and PSU without reads. I don't care if Wiscy isn't that good. Good enough to beat a dumb offense.
September 8th, 2021 at 8:27 PM ^
Shae got hurt running. Not a designed run but running with the ball no less
September 9th, 2021 at 10:45 AM ^
Yes, but I doubt they do it...why risk it.
Josh Gattis in his presser yesterday said this: "It’s so critical for us to develop a second quarterback after going through our situation that we went through last year. Kinda losing three quarterbacks, really, at one point. We’re very conscious of that, making sure we have great depth at that position and developing those guys."
This leads me to imply that the coaches are not at all interested in running the QBs if they don't have to. But I agree with the general sentiment here that we are leaving chunks of yards on the field by not running our QBs a few times per game.
September 9th, 2021 at 3:58 PM ^
Not only leaving yards on the field, but also making life harder on our RBs by leaving a defender unblocked with the read that is either fake or doesn't mean anything.
Double-stupid.
September 8th, 2021 at 2:50 PM ^
1) yes
2) Yes to all, and probably Andrel Anthony gets more snaps too
3) Yes. He doesn't have to be Denard 2.0, just be able to get 5-10 yards on a blaringly obvious read for the QB to keep the ball. Just gotta have the threat to actually make the read and the run offense work as it should
September 10th, 2021 at 4:29 PM ^
Agreed. As nice as a true dual threat can be, a pocket passer who's quick enough to pick up a fast five when needed is just as effective.
Aaron Rodgers does this. He's not known as being a true "dual threat," but if there's nobody open he's got enough moxy to pick up positive yardage and slide before taking a shot.
Ruddock did this on occasion. I remember seeing it in the bowl game against Florida. He didn't do it a lot, but when he did it was enough to extend plays. That's really all you need: enough of a QB run to keep a D honest.
September 8th, 2021 at 2:51 PM ^
The answers will become apparent... if you watch the rest of the games. You're not going to believe #4!
September 8th, 2021 at 2:53 PM ^
1) The line looked good with Zinter at 50%, so if he's the coaches' favorite OL, I have to assume it's even better with him fully operational. I assume they want him at one of the guard spots, as you indicated
2) My money is on Baldwin becoming a big fixture down the field. Platoon in the slot, as you said. I hope Henning gets the ball a lot because he's one of the most electric guys in the conference
3) Cade was known as a decently mobile high school QB. Not an elite runner. I suspect he's a "willing runner," which is important for QBs, since he's tough and unafraid in general. I think he could easily pick up the occasional 8-yard or so run when the defense is yielding that. Will Michigan ask him to do that? I'd be fine with it, but maybe the coaches aren't. I don't think we really need QB running to be successful *unless* we insist on running a lot of plays where that's a built-in option. Can't simply hand advantages to the defense
September 8th, 2021 at 3:08 PM ^
FWIW I heard on one of the podcasts from the Wolverine that Baldwin was a bit banged up at the end of camp, which is one of the reasons he got less run early on vs. WMU. Here’s to hoping he is fully healed and building that chemistry with Cade. (and JJ)
September 8th, 2021 at 4:34 PM ^
glass half full hot take after Bell's injury that this boosts Baldwin's opportunities this season, gets him at least an UDFA try out and is an example that the coaches can point to for future WR transfers.
September 8th, 2021 at 4:49 PM ^
We don't even have to guess about whether Cade is a willing runner. We saw it in the Rutgers game last year. Dude was pumped up to run in for a TD on a ZR keeper late in the game.
The question doesn't really seem to be "Can Cade Run" it seems to be "Why do our coaches insist on pulling reads from the playbook for significant stretches of every season instead of regularly repping them."
September 8th, 2021 at 2:54 PM ^
Honest question... do we have to run an option or zone read? If you have a QB who is not a good fit for it, then why keep doing it? I get that you want to take what the defense gives, but... can we not just do play action instead then? We have this never ending list, going back to Henne... of QBs who are injured at the worst times.. and just cant take the punishment. Why poke the bear with a guy who seems like a stationary, but athletic qb?
All it takes is one of these stupid slides followed by a guy launching, to send them into a concussion spiral for weeks on end. Why bother?
September 8th, 2021 at 3:24 PM ^
It is a numbers thing. When running a RPO the added threat of a QB run can tie up one of the LBs or DEs that otherwise would be crashing the RB - making both the non-QB-run options more effective. The key is that you don’t HAVE to run the QB much to make this work — just enough to keep the defense honest.
This is very similar to the UFR where Seth points out how the running game vs. WMU picked up after those 2 deep shots….until it became clear that we had put the long pass game “back on the shelf” later in the 2nd half. I think 1 or 2 keeps by the QB per half - (when that is the correct read obviously) - should be enough to make a defense honor the possibility of a QB keeper.
M is not alone in this IMO - last Thursday the camera angle was not always great but Tanner Morgan seemed to have LOADS of open field in front of him many times vs. OSU as he handed off to Ibrahim.
September 8th, 2021 at 3:51 PM ^
I guess... and i dont know enough about the X's and O's of football, but surely there are other offensive plans that can work effectively. And, surely brilliant offensive minds such as gattis and harbaugh can come up with something to fit personnel. That sounds facetious, but its not intended to be.. or maybe it is.
Either way - Rich Rod making steven threet live a miserable existence is the extreme of it... like others have said, if youre going to show it, then you should do it, and my question is... should we do it?
Agree that we saw it with Minny too. saw that and thought... im guessing a few things played in.. 1. we have a stud RB and im not gona take away a chance for him to break one instead of me slowly lumbering to getting blown up by a LB. I also wonder that given how fast some fo the DL, LB and secondary players are these days... if the QBs looking like they have a lot of space really dont.. because by the time they pull the ball, tuck and run... theyre barely gona get past the LOS. Would be a cool sports science thing to figure out... using AI to figure out how people would react on a play that went the other direction and seeing what the likely output of the play would have been.
September 8th, 2021 at 4:24 PM ^
I agree you don't have to run an offense with the QB run as an option but all the newer schemes seem to work better keeping that threat on the board. As for "should we do it?", Seth and others have noted that if M never plans on making that QB read then they should redesign the playbook. Having a player that is unblocked by play design is not ideal if you aren't going to "option" based on their actions.
IMO a conservative (=infrequent) "correct" pull by the QB should net 8-10 yards before a chance of contact, and potentially much much more if the safeties are crowding the LOS and the CBs are in man coverage. (See Steven Threet vs. Wisconsin) Again the goal of these plays is create the THREAT of a QB run more than having actual runs by the QB.
It seems clear that Gattis wants to keep this in his offense and M tends to run the full offense with the backup QBs (see McCaffrey when he backed up Shea). The question is why they seem to shy away from running the full offense with the starters. Quality of depth concerns at QB? Harbaugh issue?
September 8th, 2021 at 5:48 PM ^
100% agree with you, showing the threat of a quarterback run is what the "R" in Michigan's RPO is looking to achieve. Obviously winning games on Cade's legs is not what Michigan is looking to accomplish on a read play.
However, demonstrating that Cade actually is reading the end or play side numbers on an actual RPO, and is also willing to keep the ball when the defense sells out, does a ton to get Michigan the numbers win they're looking for on the give to the running back.
A couple of QB pulls using true RPO (i.e. 5 or less keepers per game) creates enough hesitancy from the play side rush to keep the defense from cheating towards what Michigan actually wants to do; feed the running backs. Injury aversion I have to assume is why Michigan doesn't want to run actual RPO's, but in my opinion that's too conservative of thinking on the risk-reward scale in reality.
September 8th, 2021 at 7:23 PM ^
RPO ha nothing to do with a QB run. It is a give/throw read. Typically the QB reads either the play side or backside inside backer or the play side or backside OLB/Down Safety/Nickle (depending on the defense). If they trigger to the run action you pull and throw. It could be a variety of routes like a hitch, slant, bubble, go seam….whatever. If they don’t, you give the ball. You can attach a RPO to literally any run play you have in your playbook.
The QB reading an unblocked defender and keeping to run is wholly different. This is done a variety of ways. On inside zone you do not block the backside end man on the line. If he plays flat or attacks the mesh you pull. If doesn’t, you give. You can do it with zone stretch with the same read or you can read the front side ILB and the keep is inside. You can also do this in power. Power read has a pulling guard who wraps to the play side ILB. You don’t block the play side end. If he widens with the stretch action to him, you pull and follow the guard. If he squeezes, you give because he is out leveraged. You can read the back side end on counter trey too.
These concepts are designed to get an additional hat to a specific defender and make the read key wrong regardless of their decision. That’s why you don’t bother to block one on a zone or power read or why RPO is effective by forcing a defender to choose between their pass or run responsibility. One thing you don’t do, ever, is leave an unblocked defender at the college level on a fake read for more than a couple of plays. As Seth pointed out, once they realize there is no threat of a pull, they are going to play fast and flat to the ball carrier. If you aren’t reading the dude, block him. What Michigan did makes no sense.
September 8th, 2021 at 9:26 PM ^
Great analysis, and +1 for the actual coaching perspective. I realize after re-reading my post that I was referring to "RPO" under the wrong context.
What I was really trying to refer to (and you articulated better than I), was related to the "faux read" element from the quarterback that seems to exist in Gattis' rushing attack. To me, that doesn't make sense, for the reasons you stated.
Either allow the quarterback to really option the free defender, or don't, assign a blocker, and run traditional power. Running a read blocking scheme for a play that doesn't ask the quarterback to make a read isn't going to do anything to help your rushing attack with the numbers game. That basically sums up the point I was trying to make in once sentence.
September 8th, 2021 at 4:02 PM ^
It's an RPO not really an ROPO (read option pass option)
The Read Option is where you essentially let a defender in the backfield and whatever guy he goes for the qb or rb the other guy takes the ball and has numbers up the field. You can throw from the read option but the QB has to communicate that fast so the linemen don't run down field.
The Run Pass Option is a pre or post snap read based on a specif safety or lb. If he comes up to stuff the run you throw a quick pass. If he drops back in coverage you run the ball. It's designed more for a running back than a mobile quarterback.
September 8th, 2021 at 4:30 PM ^
Could the answer then be to run some Read Option disguised as an RPO?
What I'm thinking is you RPO a bunch and defense is used to Cade giving it up. Then you run a Read Option from the same formation but Cade keeps it. He doesn't even have to run it, he could throw that seam pass Denard used to throw.
September 8th, 2021 at 7:40 PM ^
First, throwing that seam is an RPO. Second, that really isn't disguising anything and you they don't read the same guy. As I mentioned above, in the zone read you are referring to, you are leaving an unblocked defender. You wouldn't do that on an RPO. You would be reading a 2nd level defender in that case.
September 8th, 2021 at 2:54 PM ^
1. Filiaga was in for Zinter according to camp reports. Would assume he slots back in there.
2. CJ an Baldwin on the outside. Maybe Anthony gets some more snaps and Wilson occasionally. Henning and Sainristil seem to be a bulk of the slot rotation.
3. Yes, kind of. He's not as quick as Patterson in the short field, but I'd probably compare him to Rudock in 2015. Enough straight line speed to get 7-12 yards if the defense completely ignores him, but not enough to get much more than that even on a defensive bust.
September 8th, 2021 at 4:02 PM ^
Ruddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddock.
September 8th, 2021 at 4:06 PM ^
Did what I sometimes do. Warinner, not Wariner. And Rudock not Ruddock.
September 8th, 2021 at 4:28 PM ^
I think you mean "Kinter"......
#FrontPageErrorOrInsideJokeImNotGetting
September 9th, 2021 at 12:37 AM ^
Seth's review of the offense showed Keegan with a -.5 rating and Filiaga a +7.5. Others had had similar opinions on their comparative performance. If it continues anything like that it seems highly likely that when ZKinter is ready to go Filiaga will slide over to LG.
September 8th, 2021 at 2:58 PM ^
Yep, yep, yep
September 8th, 2021 at 3:09 PM ^
Yessir, yessir, yessir
September 8th, 2021 at 3:30 PM ^
3. Can Cade run? I know that Seth lamented the fact that our quarterbacks are not pulling on the read option. I’m not familiar with how Cade was in high school, is he a capable runner that we would have some success with?
Re-watch the Penn State game from last season and ask yourself why would you want Cade to run.
September 8th, 2021 at 3:51 PM ^
Re-watch the Penn State game from last season and ask yourself why would you want Cade to run.
Do you mean the injury? I had to go back and re-watch, but he was injured on a play action rollout to the right, when he could not find an open receiver and attempted to scramble for positive yards.
September 9th, 2021 at 9:10 AM ^
Every time you put the ball in someone's hands, there is a chance of injury. Why would you want to increase the risk of injury to your QB, who by all accounts, isn't a running back pretending to be a quarterback? Cade is a pocket passer with some mobility. Play to his strengths. Let the RB's do their job.
September 8th, 2021 at 3:48 PM ^
Corum in the entire game. Unless he needs a breather. At RB or slot every play he is available. Replacing Bells plays with him, Henning, and Wilson is going to be damn good. Maybe not Bell good but pretty good.