Has Livers permanently usurped Duncan Robinson's minutes?
Given how the game ended last night, what I feel like hasn't been discussed enough was that Livers played 27 minutes to Robinson's 14. Ace, Brian, and many on this board have been clamoring for Livers to take more of Robinson's minutes citing plus/minus numbers. Should we expect to see Livers in the starting lineup this weekend? What's an ideal distribution of minutes between the 2? 25/15 or other?
January 10th, 2018 at 11:36 AM ^
If Duncan can only be Clunkin then Livers gets the Onions
Id also argue that Teske has earned more time than Wagner who seems has just fallen apart
January 10th, 2018 at 11:40 AM ^
January 10th, 2018 at 11:45 AM ^
I'd like to see their +/- yesterday. I thought Wagner struggled big time defending Haas.
January 10th, 2018 at 11:59 AM ^
Wagner's play has been very disappointing thus far. At this point it's really hard to see him getting drafted
January 10th, 2018 at 12:22 PM ^
I'd be shocked to see him go in the 1st. Really no improvement in consistency from last season and still has the same issues, primarily defense. I think a lot of fans just see him make a couple nice offensive plays a game but don't see his weaknesses, and for Teske it's the opposite. His D, screening, and offensive tip outs are his strengths.
January 10th, 2018 at 1:42 PM ^
I'm not sure why people have the idea that Wagner has not been better and more consistent this year than last year.
What's bad?
He's shooting a little worse this year. 64/38 vs. 66/40 2pt%/3pt%.
His defense has not dramatically improved.
What's good?
He's a dramatically better rebounder this year. 7.1 vs. 4.2 rpg
He's fouling less. Fouls/40 min: 3.7 vs. 4.5.
Which allows him to stay on the floor more despite having a better backup this year (26 mpg vs. 24 mpg).
Shooting could be slightly down due to increased usage: 26.1 vs. 25.1
Defensive rating isn't a great stat but he's at 89.1 this year vs. 101.6 last year.
Look at his game log this year vs. last and see how often he's reaching double-digits/more rebounds. He has played more consistently. The biggest change year to year is his significantly improved rebounding. This probably has helped his defensive rating, too. Wagner has been good this year.
January 10th, 2018 at 2:13 PM ^
Judging Wagner by yesterday is total BS. If you count the officials, he was playing Haas 1-on-4.
January 10th, 2018 at 2:37 PM ^
January 10th, 2018 at 9:59 PM ^
January 11th, 2018 at 11:53 AM ^
but PU was switching everything, so you could have Teske set a screen and then Haas would end up on Mathews or Z. He couldn't close out on them lest they drive right by him. They set up a few three-pointers that way.
January 10th, 2018 at 5:04 PM ^
January 11th, 2018 at 1:29 PM ^
And I didn't mean to target your comment specifically.
I do get the sense many people think Wagner has had a disappointing season to date, which I do disagree with.
January 10th, 2018 at 5:17 PM ^
offensive consistency. It doesn't seem like that's improved from last year. He's still very streaky. Not at all the dominant offensive player that he'd need to be to make up for his defensive shortcomings (although he was a bit better prior to the ankle injury in this respect).
And you're correct that his D rebounding has improved this year from a numbers perspective. I wonder how much credit he'll get for that from NBA scouts. Part of the reason it has improved is that we don't have Derrick Walton going for boards, which was largely a tactic that we employed. Bigs box out, D Walt go get it and get out in transition. We've changed that this year because our guards are different. Now, it's bigs box out and go get it while PG takes the outlet pass.
That said, our defensive rebounding has improved as a team, and I think Wagner's ability and willingness to go get it are playing a part. He's doing a good job there, I think. But his offensive rebounding has actually gotten worse and is pretty bad for a guy playing the 5. That might tell scouts that his DREB increase is more a result of team composition/strategy than anything else. OREBs are more an individual stat since it's about your ability to get around/over the guy trying to keep you off the boards.
January 10th, 2018 at 5:49 PM ^
it's bad for wagner because he plays beyond the 3 pt line. that's the whole point of this offense. wagner playing the 5 allows guys like matthews, maar, hell even simpson, drive the lane for layups. that dries up with teske in there.
January 10th, 2018 at 11:46 AM ^
that game..Mo was constantly getting beat, was out of position, scored a few points but Teske was in their getting rebounds and playing defense..Teske is bigger and stronger and Mo seems pale and weak out there
January 10th, 2018 at 11:48 AM ^
January 10th, 2018 at 11:57 AM ^
January 10th, 2018 at 12:55 PM ^
January 10th, 2018 at 12:24 PM ^
Pale can also be defined as frail/feeble.
January 10th, 2018 at 1:44 PM ^
Maybe he meant "pail" - spell check won't catch stuff like that. I'm too old to understand the slang, so maybe you kids can help me. /~herm
January 10th, 2018 at 2:58 PM ^
Get Wagner to a tanning salon--stat!
January 10th, 2018 at 12:01 PM ^
Is 7'2" 300 lbs, and pretty athletic. Everyone is gonna have trouble guarding him in the post.
January 10th, 2018 at 5:18 PM ^
and Teske is 7'1 260lbs. He did a much better job than Wagner though I have to say, Wagner did an admirable job towards the end and at least cleaned up some boards after Haas missed some point-blank easy ones. We were fortunate that when our offense stagnated, they also didn't score.
The other thing that people don't realize or see in the box score is that we were doubling Haas when Wagner was gaurding him in the first half which opened us up to a barrage of threes. If no double came to force a kick out, it was a gauranteed easy shot or drawn foul for Haas when Wagner was guarding him.
Teske could hold his ground and do just fine in single coverage which allowed our defenders to key more on their 3pt shooters.
January 10th, 2018 at 11:52 AM ^
January 10th, 2018 at 1:50 PM ^
puts forth far more often than his rare good performances. He makes dumb fouls, gets frustrated and then goes downhill. Happens all the time.
He so rarely has an offensive performance that outweighs his poor defense.
January 10th, 2018 at 5:52 PM ^
tell me all the games where mo has been outplayed by the other team's 5.
January 10th, 2018 at 12:38 PM ^
January 10th, 2018 at 12:00 PM ^
Livers is starting to look like the best all around player on the team
January 10th, 2018 at 1:54 PM ^
on that list. Certainly has been the past 9 games.
January 10th, 2018 at 11:36 AM ^
Livers is a stud already. Robinson should come in for some instant offense in spots instead of being a primary contributor.
January 10th, 2018 at 11:36 AM ^
Livers to start for the win!
January 10th, 2018 at 11:37 AM ^
Livers also always seems to hit his 3s when we really need them, and for this season at least, the opposite seems to be true for Duncan.
January 10th, 2018 at 11:37 AM ^
Duncan Robinson is not a Big Ten starter. He brings nothing to the table except on the unique occasion he is making outside shots. Bring him off the bench, and its quite possible his production could improve. After Livers defensive play last night, he is now better than Duncan in every facet of the game, with the exception of the random game Duncan gets hot. Start Livers, bench Duncan. I think we will see this change take place starting this weekend in East Lansing.
January 10th, 2018 at 11:37 AM ^
to big time D1 hoops, but it's pretty clear the handoff is complete. Livers starts at MSU this weekend
January 10th, 2018 at 11:51 AM ^
Robinson has such a great story. Grew up in New Hampshire, went to perhaps the best liberal arts college in the country, transferred from DIII to became a DI starter and knock-down shooter. So I've always been pulling for him. But he hasn't been playing well this year, and we do have a player off the bench who has looked pretty darn good. Like many other posters, I hope that if Livers does get the nod that Robinson finds success in his new role. If all goes well it could be a move that benefits both players and the team as a whole.
January 10th, 2018 at 11:39 AM ^
January 10th, 2018 at 11:52 AM ^
I think it's because Irvin had a much higher ceiling. When he was ballin' he could take over a game. Duncan is not that type of player. He very much is "just a shooter."
January 10th, 2018 at 11:55 AM ^
Probably because Irvin was far more talented and Duncan is one dimensional.
January 10th, 2018 at 11:55 AM ^
Irvin showed flashes of his 5-star potential throughout his career, but never really lived up to them. When he struggled, he struggled massively, to the point that every time he shot the ball, you'd cringe.
I don't think anyone truly expected Duncan to be anything more than a three point sniper.
January 10th, 2018 at 12:16 PM ^
January 10th, 2018 at 12:53 PM ^
That has a lot to do with the fact that the team was playing badly at this point a year ago, and seemed unlikely to make the tournament. As a senior leader, Irvin was an easy target.
The team now is playing well, so there's just not that much fan angst at the moment (except directed at the referees).
January 10th, 2018 at 11:40 AM ^
I hope so! Duncan looked awful last night - slow, painfully un-athletic, and didn't shoot well. I mean, one shot he had from the corner came after some awesome ball movement left him so open I could have hit the shot. He clanged something that wasn't even close. I'm not sure, based on last night's performance, that he's even earning backup time right now. I'd say the ratio should be more like 25/5, with the other minutes going to Poole (same position, or not - get your players on the floor).
January 10th, 2018 at 11:45 AM ^
Yeah, that open three from the corner was too bad. I haven't been watching enough basketball this season to know if his form on that shot was typical, but it looked all messed up. He kind of had his legs spread apart and was hunched over. Clearly he has the ability to shoot threes accurately, but it seems like something physical or mental is interfering with his shot these days. Too bad--I hope he turns it around.
January 10th, 2018 at 11:41 AM ^
I'd say so. People are far too concerned with who starts the game. Personally, I'm far more concerned with who finishes it.
January 10th, 2018 at 11:44 AM ^
My expression after the end of the game last night
January 10th, 2018 at 11:41 AM ^
whoa... I was typing my Livers manifesto, while you posted this ! Jinx !!!!! :)
January 10th, 2018 at 11:43 AM ^
On a small sample Livers is outshooting Dunc from 3. I think he does everything else better, but could be persuaded I'm' wrong about something. Crean gushed over Dunc's (help D) on the IL-broadcast.
I'd much rather see Dunc subbed in strategically to gain favorable matchups at both ends of the floor. The athletic deficit on Saturday will be helped when Livers is on the floor.
January 10th, 2018 at 1:37 PM ^