Harbaugh's comments on NIL pay

Submitted by NowTameInThe603 on October 8th, 2019 at 3:55 PM

To summarize:

-He essentially says "be careful what you wish for". 

-Inviting loopholes that some will drive a truck through.

-Keep college sports amateur.  

-His solution would to be to loosen restrictions on the ability to turn pro. Turn pro after any season. Ability to go back to school if undrafted. 

I am 100% in agreement.

I paraphrased but you can find a better write up on 247 https://247sports.com/college/michigan/LongFormArticle/Unpacking-Michigan-football-coach-Jim-Harbaughs-comments-on-NIL-pay-NCAA-amateurism-and-the-Fair-Pay-Act-136697466/#136697466_1

 

WirlingDirvish

October 8th, 2019 at 4:05 PM ^

In my opinion NIL opens up a large number of problems and is very difficult to control from the perspective of the school. I would rather the school be forced to purchase the NIL rights from the student athlete, and then things stay as they are. There could be an open market for the top athletes, and then each school would have a blanket $ value for the lower tier players. That would avoid the pitfalls of student athletes getting paid from whomever offers them money, and the problems that go along with that. That would avoid the problem of agents for the most part, would also put a layer of seperation between potentially shady "sponsors" and the players themselves.

WirlingDirvish

October 8th, 2019 at 4:20 PM ^

To clarify, I would like to see a system where "signing" with a school involves a student and the school agreeing to terms to assign the NIL rights to the school. This can and should involve compensation above and beyond tuition + room & board. Each year the student has the option to opt-out and transfer. I'm just concerned about exposing college freshmen to the kind of people that would be most interested in giving them money. I remember when I was a freshmen, I would not have been capable of making good decisions in that matter.

JHumich

October 8th, 2019 at 6:13 PM ^

To be fair, at least they're trying to do something to make it more equitable. I think that coach's suggestions are usually good because he gets there by trying to be fair, not by trying to manipulate outcomes. Manipulating outcomes never ultimately works because of the unintended consequences.

Ezekiels Creatures

October 8th, 2019 at 7:41 PM ^

So some rich car dealer, tells the top O Line recruit in the Nation, that's think of going to Notre Dame for the great O Line coach they have, and because he's Catholic, that he will pay him $500,000.00 to be the face of his car dealership. And the kid takes it, because Alabama has a great O Line coach too. He let's say he does it not because he comes from a poor family, but just because it's $500,00.00?

What does that do to college football? The team with the most advertising dollars wins?

Michigan4ever

October 8th, 2019 at 4:09 PM ^

I agree with allowing undrafted players come back and finish out eligibility, however players shouldn’t have to drive an Uber while in college in order to get by.  I’m not saying I have the answer, but something needs to change. 

Brianj25

October 8th, 2019 at 4:36 PM ^

Which players have to drive an Uber in order to get by? 

I'm in favor of some sort of reform that allows players to be compensated but we really need to stop pretending that the players who will benefit from this legislation are struggling to get by. Their scholarships cover food and housing. Their health care and insurance is covered. Their transportation is covered. They get a healthy monthly stipend to spend on whatever they want, plus access to a number of NCAA sanctioned funds specifically designed for athletes. They have minimal expenses. 

 

Phaedrus

October 8th, 2019 at 7:47 PM ^

I was going to make a post about how he surely just did that for fun considering his dad had a decent NFL career, but then I double checked myself and it turns out he never had a relationship with his father, who never financially contributed to Mo's upbringing. His mom had to scrimp and save just to occasionally visit him in Ann Arbor. It's a really sad story. It makes me feel extra bad for him that he was passed up in the early draft rounds. Hopefully he proves to be successful enough with the Raiders that he can sign a big contract at some point.

"People would hear about my dad and make all kinds of assumptions," Maurice says now, "like that we were rich or had this great life or something. In reality, I didn't know him."

GOMBLOG

October 8th, 2019 at 5:24 PM ^

I doubt any players drive an Uzbek unless they want extra cash. These dudes live like kings while playing football for UM. 

And I think if a player gets compensated for his likeness then he forfeits the athletic scholarship and pays his own tuition 

Ecky Pting

October 8th, 2019 at 4:10 PM ^

I believe when he mentioned "loopholes", he was referring to the state of affairs in the current system without saying who owned the trucks or what they were carrying.

Also, he made no reference to the idea of athletes retaining rights to name, image & likeness in pursuit of revenues from sponsors, but just referred to the idea of schools paying them outright, which is different.

I think the way he sees it, allowing players to go pro ASAP would have a greater impact on other teams that are making under the table payments to retain their upper tier players, and so in the end it would be means to level the playing field, and cheaters who live by the sword of paying players would die by the sword when the NFL comes along and pays them more.

ak47

October 8th, 2019 at 4:11 PM ^

What if, and I know this is crazy, we put the kids first and allow them to do all things Harbaugh says and also make a profit of their likeness because its the right thing to do even if it makes traditionalists mad

lostwages

October 8th, 2019 at 4:28 PM ^

I don't think it will play out the way you think it will... I think some of the moderate sized to smaller programs even in the D1 P5 will collapse, and the transfer portal will explode.

FYI, I'm not a traditionalist, and don't claim to talk about the purity of the sport, but I do think there are a lot of negative consequences that will endanger the sport and the programs. It needs to be thought through be a lot of people much smarter than us.

 

Drew Henson's Backup

October 8th, 2019 at 6:35 PM ^

Getting rid of Rutgers football is not an unintended consequence.

Seriously though, advocates for change are prepared for, you know, change.

I am not interested in delaying progress (or rather stalling it in perpetuity) because we need to wait for the fortune tellers to come in and predict the future to ease the minds of the concern trolls and assure them that their pet beliefs will remain unchanged.

I could make some political analogies but I am not interested in getting banned today.

Trebor

October 8th, 2019 at 5:03 PM ^

From the perspective of some people, sure, it may have a negative effect. As long as it's NIL only (i.e., they still are not employees of the school), I don't think it will. But even if there's a negative effect, that's still better than refusing to allow kids to profit off of their NIL rights. 

Longballs Dong…

October 8th, 2019 at 6:22 PM ^

I'm not saying I'm against NIL payments but here are some possible ways this hurts kids or the game:

- Are there any rules around the contracts or support for the players? Can they hire agents?  Will these kids/families read agreements carefully and know what they are signing?  Even the NFL has CBA because things get messy.  What if I offer deals to a bunch of 13 year old prospects to buy their NIL for life and his family agrees because $25k seems like a lot of money right now?  What if there are non-compete clauses such that I can control where he goes to school or what he does?  

- Why would Nike give UM any money going forward?  They should just pay a couple of our star players and give UM $0.  

- Without contract controls, why would a company pay someone like Shea once he's benched? This is a lesser problem but kids are going to fall hard when they aren't successful in college.  Without some sort of CBA-like arrangement, sponsorship deals might become void if kids get hurt or benched.

- What if there are claw backs written in such that Shea owes back all endorsement money if he gets benched?  Did he read the fine print?  Contracts could be tiered based on performance - not sure that's bad, just another layer of confusion and possible way to screw over kids.

- Can we stop Shea Patterson from putting an Arby's logo on his helmet?  Or a patch on his jersey?  What control does the school have?  Can he lift up his shirt to show a Kraft noodle under his jersey after a TD?  Fans lost their shit when a noodle showed up outside the stadium.  How do we feel about it during games?  

- What if contracts are written like record deals. I give a 15 year old $100k advance to commit to UM but I write the contract such that he has to start 20 games and score 15 TDs or else you owe it all back with interest.  That 15 year old buys a Tesla, blows out his knee at 16, never plays for UM but owes me a bunch of money for life.  

I'd rather see kids get a cut of specified NIL money: jersey sales, video game money, hell even a share of ticket sales but a full open market with minimal governance and possibly preventing kids from getting proper representation... that just seems ripe to be abused by shady characters.  

 

UAUM

October 8th, 2019 at 8:38 PM ^

These questions are pathetic, to say the least. Tons of athletes and young people do endorsement deals every day and they are somehow able to navigate these basic hurdles. There is a market, so the best advisors will flock to it. I think all agents should be NFL certified, but beyond that this is just boogeymen fearmongering. 

The only reason college athletes don’t have the same rights as every other 18-22 year old is because of the NCAA monopoly, and the administrators profiting off them. What benefit is there from this monopoly? Our entertainment. 

This is a joke, plain and simple.

OldManUfer

October 9th, 2019 at 9:13 AM ^

That was difficult to read.

I'm going to respond to several points specifically, but at a high level most of the concerns you expressed aren't about what restoring NIL rights to college athletes will do to the game. They are about protecting young people from (probably overblown) hypothetical financially predatory contracts.

I would not be against well reasoned legislation expanding protections, but why single out sports in its absence? Would you be okay with other industries artificially limiting the compensation of all (except the very top, in some cases) young actors, musicians, or entrepreneurs who want to pursue the careers for which their skills make them uniquely suited? All while making billions of dollars for others off of their labor at cartel fixed pricing?

Longballs Dong…

October 9th, 2019 at 3:01 PM ^

Ok, my post was written in haste on a phone.  Let me try again. 

I'm not arguing against NIL payments, I'm only pointing out that the current legislation will have negative consequences.  Again, i'm not saying those consequences outweigh the gain, i'm just saying some thoughtful and organized oversight will be needed.  

Here are some points of clarification from the actual bill:

1. Players still cannot receive money from the school as it relates to NIL, that is, they can't give players a share of jersey sales.  These payments must come from a 3rd party. Nike can pay the players this money (see #2 below).

2. The Bill does call out that players can hire agents without penalty from NCAA so that does make me feel a bit better.

3. The bill states that the school cannot restrict the endorsement in anyway unless it conflicts with a university agreement with the same business.  It's unclear what happens if it's with a different business but still conflicts, for example someone signs a deal with Reebok while the school provides Nike gear by contract.  

4. The bill is only applicable while a student is enrolled.  It's unclear how to regulate the time between commitment and enrollment.  

Based on those items, here are ways that I see the game (ignoring the kids being taken advantage of) being damaged:

1. I believe a player can put logos on their jerseys/helmets.  The school can bench the player but cannot touch the scholarship. They could literally look like NASCAR out there. 

2. I do believe Nike/Reebok will stop paying schools to use their gear and instead go straight to the players.  It would be cheaper and more effective.  That's $10-$15 million per year that Michigan might lose. Nike will still probably sign a deal with Michigan to gain access to the players and block competition but it would be for less.  

3. There are incentives in the NFL to deter a holdout but it still happens.  I think you'll see players hold out in college for a better deal if they've become a star since there is very little reason not to hold out.  This will also put coaches in a tough spot and tempt them to ask sponsors to pay more so they can get their player back on the field.  

4. I think you'll see some schools sell any tradition to try to get an advantage.  For example, UM might actually bench a kid for wearing an Arby's logo on his helmet but Rutger might tell recruits they can do what ever they want with the jersey or uniform to make money.  NCAA cannot rule them ineligible if they are just exercising their NIL rights.  There are no comments in the bill about conforming to NCAA standards/bylaws.  

5. Transfers will become more common since schools with a lot of boosters/sponsors start offering big money for a kid to transfer.  Off the top of my head, why wouldn't someone poach Rondale Moore from Purdue, Curtis Weaver from Boise, or even Jonathan Taylor from Wisc - surely someone could offer more money than Wisconsin locals. Why would an under the radar recruit who turns out to be a star stay at the small school?  I think you'll essentially create a D League to be used by the big teams to scout.  To further complicate, these kids could be considered walk-ons and pay their own way so it wouldn't have to hit the scholarship limits.  Small schools will never develop the affinity for the star players because they'll just lose them to bigger programs.  CMU/WMU/EMU etc will never keep a star player.  UM/MSU will have a booster step up and pay them more.

6. A lot of people here say they hate the NFL because it's just a commercialized, money grab, full of divas, etc... isn't that what we just created in college but without a singular source of money (owners), cap limits or CBA/NFLPA?  

7. Finally, what if UM is about to play for the national championship.  We have a star quarterback named Denard Brady.  He's making $3 million off endorsements currently.  It's his last year at UM before going pro but before the game, Phil Knight offers him $1 million dollars not to play in the game and instead make a Nike commercial and oh by the way, we're playing Oregon. There could easily be a market to pay players not to play.  Surely that hurts the game.    

Again, I'm not saying NIL is bad, just that it's not a perfect solution and could really damage the college game in unintended ways.  My hope is that the NCAA (or hopefully something new that isn't so terrible at everything) comes up with a legit way to implement this at a national level so everyone has the same rules.

OldManUfer

October 14th, 2019 at 3:39 AM ^

I'm not arguing against NIL payments, I'm only pointing out that the current legislation will have negative consequences.  Again, i'm not saying those consequences outweigh the gain, i'm just saying some thoughtful and organized oversight will be needed.

I agree with this. The law represents a significant departure from the status quo and will likely take some fine tuning. The biggest problem, of course, is that it only applies to schools in California and disadvantages schools in other states. Luckily, there are several years left before the law enters takes effect. Assuming the law survives the likely court challenges, I have no doubt we'll to see a national framework before that time.

I also have some concerns with ambiguities and holes in the law but see it as a significant positive step.

3. The bill states that the school cannot restrict the endorsement in anyway unless it conflicts with a university agreement with the same business.  It's unclear what happens if it's with a different business but still conflicts, for example someone signs a deal with Reebok while the school provides Nike gear by contract.

The law prohibits athlete contracts that are "in conflict with a provision of the athlete’s team contract" (see §67456(e) that it adds to the Education Code). That applies whether or not it's with the "same business," a phrase that does not appear in the legislation. However, it's not completely one-sided as the law also adds restrictions on what schools can put in their contracts.

4. The bill is only applicable while a student is enrolled.  It's unclear how to regulate the time between commitment and enrollment.

Currently, the NCAA has no authority over athletes before they join a member school. All the hoops those athletes have to jump through are caused by restrictions that will apply once they enroll (really, try to compete and/or practice with the team) as well as restrictions on the schools themselves. Additionally, nothing that I can see restricts the law's protections to only enrolled students. The only reference to enrollment in the legislation is a passage stating that scholarships are not considered NIL compensation. Athletes will be able to sign deals before enrolling and never face penalty from the NCAA.

1. I believe a player can put logos on their jerseys/helmets.  The school can bench the player but cannot touch the scholarship. They could literally look like NASCAR out there.

Uniforms are property of the school, the law does not create a new right for athletes to make unauthorized modifications. Furthermore, it only prevents schools from limiting the use of NIL "when the athlete is not engaged in official team activities." Games and practice unambiguously fall under this exception.

2. I do believe Nike/Reebok will stop paying schools to use their gear and instead go straight to the players.  It would be cheaper and more effective.  That's $10-$15 million per year that Michigan might lose. Nike will still probably sign a deal with Michigan to gain access to the players and block competition but it would be for less.

Broadly, I think this won't come to pass for the reasons laid out above. However, there may be some impact and I wouldn't be surprised if some schools were against the legislation due to concerns about reduced revenue. That, to me, is more of an indictment of those schools than the law. The hypocrisy of signing gigantic sponsorship deals and paying exorbitant salaries to the adults (who aren't putting their bodies on the line) while clutching their pearls over the erosion of the purity of college athletics boggles my mind.

3. There are incentives in the NFL to deter a holdout but it still happens.

I've never heard of an NFL player sitting out because a third party advertiser wasn't paying them enough. Meanwhile, we already have players sitting out in college. The developing situation at Rutgers and increasing number of football players skipping bowl games are examples that immediately come to mind.

I think you'll see players hold out in college for a better deal if they've become a star since there is very little reason not to hold out.

I can't tell if you are implying that the school could not revoke a player's scholarship and cut them in such a scenario due to this law. That's not the case, and those would be strong reasons not to hold out. Additionally, as with professional athletes, there's the damage it would do to their reputation (with fans, other schools, sponsors, and professional teams). I don't see players receiving NIL compensation having much of an impact.

4. I think you'll see some schools sell any tradition to try to get an advantage.

That ship sailed a long time ago.

For example, UM might actually bench a kid for wearing an Arby's logo on his helmet but Rutger might tell recruits they can do what ever they want with the jersey or uniform to make money.

Do you see much difference in terms of harm to tradition between Rutgers allowing players slap an Arby's logo on their uniforms (not that they could, more on that below) and Rutgers slapping the Arby's logo on their playing surfaces and scoreboards (which they can do, and someone probably does, now)? What about selling stadium naming rights?

NCAA cannot rule them ineligible if they are just exercising their NIL rights.  There are no comments in the bill about conforming to NCAA standards/bylaws.

The law does not need to specify that athletes must abide by NCAA rules. The NCAA can still enforce any rule that is not prohibited by the law. This includes the existing uniform standards, which I'm almost certain prohibit the kind of advertising you're contemplating.

5. Transfers will become more common since schools with a lot of boosters/sponsors start offering big money for a kid to transfer. [...] Small schools will never develop the affinity for the star players because they'll just lose them to bigger programs.  CMU/WMU/EMU etc will never keep a star player.  UM/MSU will have a booster step up and pay them more.

While this happens today, I can see the law encouraging some athletes who wouldn't have otherwise transferred to do so. On the other hand, I can also see it allowing some stars or recruits who blow up to stick with the smaller schools by bringing payments out from the shadows. Corporations have incentive to sponsor good players independent of school affiliations, whereas some of the boosters you invoke are operating today for the benefit of a single school.

6. A lot of people here say they hate the NFL because it's just a commercialized, money grab, full of divas, etc...

It's already overly-commercialized, and not because of the athletes. The schools, conferences and NCAA are gorging while the athletes are being fed scraps under the table.

isn't that what we just created in college but without a singular source of money (owners), cap limits or CBA/NFLPA? 

No, there are many differences, but I'll address your specific points. NFL players get sponsorship deals as well, so there's no "singular source of money" (which isn't really relevant anyway). The NCAA certainly caps how much a team can compensate players and it's much stricter than the NFL. Recruiting, eligibility, and transfer restrictions function similarly to parts of CBAs, just not the part that allows the employees to negotiate for their own benefit (which lawsuits and legislation like this seem to be taking the place of). Counter question: are all these unarguably good things?

Phil Knight offers him $1 million dollars not to play in the game and instead make a Nike commercial and oh by the way, we're playing Oregon. There could easily be a market to pay players not to play.   

This is possible under today's rules, but seems exceedingly improbably and regardless of the law. If a player is willing to completely cut ties, there's really nothing the team can do to stop them.
 

taistreetsmyhero

October 8th, 2019 at 5:18 PM ^

I will feel much more comfortable watching college football knowing that someone like Denard Robinson, who is a top 5 favorite player of all time, will actually receive some compensation for being such a great college football player. 

Right now, it's hard to justify watching a gladiatorial sport that guys who are increasingly younger than me play without monetary compensation.

JPC

October 8th, 2019 at 4:12 PM ^

Brian told me that it's totally unreasonable to think that this NIL stuff could be bad in any way. Therefore Harbaugh needs to think twice and read some of Brian's snarky posts to educate himself.

In Baugh we trust

October 8th, 2019 at 4:16 PM ^

He also gave an argument for keeping sports amateur that I haven't heard before. He talked about how if the athletic department starts compensating football and basketball players, then there would be less money for non-revenue sports and their various needs. Now I'm sure that people would argue that there is more than enough money to go around and then cite Harbaugh's salary as evidence, but I still think his perspective is very interesting.

mjc

October 8th, 2019 at 11:17 PM ^

I agree with you. My point was I wouldn't be surprised if a sport gets cut to help fund football "salaries". Women's soccer just happened to pop into my head first. 

spider-sal

October 8th, 2019 at 5:34 PM ^

I don’t see why these talented men’s basketball and football players have to support the other sports. Money is being made off of their talent and they have absolutely no say in how it is spent. The NCAA sure has a nice thing going for themselves.

One more thing. I don’t think coaches making millions should really have a voice in this.

lostwages

October 8th, 2019 at 4:18 PM ^

I disagree with the "come back" option. This causes problems for new recruits who might otherwise see play time, then the transfer portal comes up, and your potentially out key positions because someone left then came back. I see this being worse for schools, programs, and student athletes in general, you leave and that's it.

lostwages

October 9th, 2019 at 4:30 PM ^

If you think that "play time" is not a key aspect when recruiting, I think your kidding yourself; especially when it comes to transfers who are basing their transfer options (see Shae) on the outgoing QB, and what a program has in the stable.

Our staff seems to have trouble getting a handle on the current recruiting climate, now you want to add in another variable? LOL

mgobaran

October 8th, 2019 at 4:24 PM ^

The problem isn't:

"Players are being paid anyways, let's just allow it to happen legally"

The problem is the NCAA is limiting the freedoms of student athletes to make money. Whether it was the backup punter who has too popular of a youtube channel, not being able to sell homemade knit hats on etsy or around the dorm, or not being able to accept a sales internship. 

Yes, when NIL are granted, schools will continue to cheat. They will find new ways to cheat. Some players will straight up be bought. I believe that happens today. So if Michigan is allowed to counter more than an offer of $0, that can only be beneficial to us and the players. 

Carter the Darter

October 8th, 2019 at 4:28 PM ^

How about the athlete waives the privilege to come back if undrafted when they sit out of a "meaningless bowl game" especially if they are a captain?

Bighou

October 8th, 2019 at 4:33 PM ^

Overall Harbaugh's comments make sense and would probably work in UM's favor.

However, my extremely selfish me person hates the idea of landing a Rashon, Jabrill or Dax and not relishing in the fact that they are "ours" for at least 3 years. 

Harball sized HAIL

October 8th, 2019 at 4:37 PM ^

WTF would he know?  

He's only:

Played in the NCAA

Coached a DII school with zero scholly athletes

Coached at arguably the best private school in the US

Coached at the best public school in the US

Oh........and he coached and played in the NFL too (pretty well) and seems to genuinely give a shit about the welfare of the young men he's in charge of.

Maybe there isn't a better person to listen to?

taistreetsmyhero

October 8th, 2019 at 5:23 PM ^

He's never been in an administrator or policy position. Sure, he's got good ideas, but that is a huge level of abstraction from any of his previous experiences.

Same difference, IMO, between playing and coaching -- not all players make good coaches, not all people with Harbaugh's experience know shit all about larger policies...