The Frank Clark Conundrum
I was always a big fan of Frank Clark when he was at Michigan but, the reason for his departure was awful. Admittedly I was much younger then and I don’t remember how that all played out (with the charges, I know he left the program). I was curious if most were happy he is now a Super Bowl champion or if there is a general indifference towards it?
Either way I’m glad Andy Reid finally won one.
February 3rd, 2020 at 11:14 AM ^
We don't actually know that. We suspect it, but that's not the same.
February 3rd, 2020 at 11:23 AM ^
Most Michigan teams of the last 50 years would beat that 2011 OSU team...just say'n
February 3rd, 2020 at 12:53 PM ^
"Michigan hasn't beaten OSU since, like, the Reagan administration."
Aside from the 16 Michigan victories since Reagan won, you're spot on.
February 3rd, 2020 at 9:46 AM ^
I have too many friends that are obnoxious Chiefs fans.... I was really hoping to be able to tell them that they didn't lose to Tom Brady, they lost to his backup....
however, it was a good game. the soft porn 1/2 time show was............something.
I'm still giving the Chiefs fans some shit, I believe this was the first time in history that a QB threw as my ints as tds and was given the MVP. he's only 3 behind Tom 'GOAT" Brady
February 3rd, 2020 at 10:58 AM ^
Of course he is 3 behind Brady, he's in his third freaking season. And the youngest player ever to win MVP and Super Bowl MVP
February 3rd, 2020 at 11:10 AM ^
I was curious about the MVP too... Mahomes was not good yesterday.
Hill or Williams had better games.
February 3rd, 2020 at 11:19 AM ^
Williams was the MVP even though he didn’t win the award for it
February 3rd, 2020 at 9:49 AM ^
I am happier about Andy Reid and Pat Mahomes winning it than I am about Frank Clark winning it.
Frank Clark continued talking trash after the game, talking about Jimmy G. and whatnot. I don't like trash talkers, especially when there's no reason for it. The same goes for Richard Sherman on the other side.
Also, good for Chad Henne.
February 3rd, 2020 at 9:51 AM ^
You can like whoever you want. I'm sure there are plenty of musicians, actors, athletes, etc who have done bad shit, whether we know about it or not. If what he did is reason for you to not like him, then don't like him. If you're a Frank Clark fan regardless of his past, then that's cool too. I'm sure plenty of people in Kansas City give zero shits about his past right about now. Personally, I enjoyed seeing him win. Maybe he's changed, maybe he hasn't.
February 3rd, 2020 at 10:34 AM ^
Hopefully the link works - thought it was a worthwhile read and obviously pertinent to this discussion no matter how you feel about Mr. Clark. The most interesting part may be his shout out to our academics.
February 3rd, 2020 at 9:55 AM ^
Frank Clark is a turd... But he's our turd.
February 3rd, 2020 at 10:07 AM ^
Mythbusters dispelled the idea that you can't polish a turd......
However, the best polishing a turd can result in is shiny shit.
February 3rd, 2020 at 9:59 AM ^
It’s weird. The guy ended his college career by being kicked off the team, and for very legit and horrifying reasons. I have a hard time considering him one of ours now.
February 3rd, 2020 at 10:34 AM ^
Ditto.
February 3rd, 2020 at 10:08 AM ^
We have no idea if Clark has genuinely changed his behavior in his personal life. People who reject him tend to believe that once a guy has done something of such repugnance, they are irredeemable. On the other hand, many who discuss their affection for “redemption” neglect to check if the person under discussion has actually changed.
Clark is our guy. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t desire reform in his life, even to the point of “tough love” if warranted. We can be happy that a Michigan guy or two won a title, and we can hope that Clark has changed. Whether we actively root for him is a more difficult question, but we don’t have to pretend he’s not our guy, either.
February 3rd, 2020 at 10:26 AM ^
On the other hand, many who discuss their affection for “redemption” neglect to check if the person under discussion has actually changed.
Bit of an aside but in my experience those who laud redemption never actually accept anyone's attempts at atonement or change; they keep moving the goalposts. I remember one thread (not here) where a guy who killed a child in a car accident some decades ago recently died by shielding a bunch of kids from a car. Guess what? To the Internet, his literal death wasn't enough. Cancel culture has no limits; I've looked for them.
What you call redemption is, in my experience, apologists. One way to go about being an apologist is to assume a bad guy isn't really bad or, to your point, assume he's changed for the better without any evidence.
FWIW, I haven't followed Frank Clark since the circumstances of his departure from Michigan killed any interest I had in his NFL career. I hope he's matured, not just for his sake but for others'. But I'll just be honest and say I don't know.
February 3rd, 2020 at 11:29 AM ^
To the Internet, his literal death wasn't enough. Cancel culture has no limits; I've looked for them.
I don't think that "the internet" is a good gauge of the culture at large. Internet posters are squeaky wheels (us included).
February 3rd, 2020 at 12:06 PM ^
Quite true in general, but that particular example was a thread, just being honest about that. FWIW I've personally witnessed cancel culture in action in less extreme cases (as in, not dead), and it's not any different. Amazingly, the Internet is not blowing it out of proportion. Do one bad thing and these days a lot of people (especially younger folk) will write you off as irredeemable.
To reiterate, I have no idea if this applies to Clark, except to say that outside the NFL (where players can get away with a lot) he's probably doomed either way. For all I know he's still an asshole but the guy could disembowel himself in ritual suicide and the woke folks be going, "Too little, too late."
February 3rd, 2020 at 1:06 PM ^
There are so many people in the world and we have the tech to make any one of them a star at any moment. If someone is going to be an idol or a star you can choose one who didn't beat his girlfriend. There are plenty of people in line.
...but there should be redemption in society. I saw something the a couple of months ago that said [99.9%] of violent crimes are committed by people between [16-28]. It was arguing that long (20+ year) prison sentences didn't make sense because the offenders were going to age out of that behavior anyway. Once the testosterone stops raging you tend to calm down. I'm not a fan of Coach O, because he beat a woman, but he has a nice redemption story. Guy took the long road back and deserves some credit for being a decent human being after he solved whatever substance abuse and mental problems he had back then.
February 3rd, 2020 at 10:09 AM ^
I've seen nothing in his time since Michigan indicating he's changed or learned anything. Until that happens he can fall in a hole for all I care.
February 3rd, 2020 at 10:45 AM ^
I’m glad he doesn’t live vicariously through your eyes. This post is horrible. For obvious reasons. See it’s easy to throw stones if,”you have a nice ranch home.” However if you live long enough, you’ll understand that it really,”never matters what anyone else thinks of you!” It’s what you think of you that allows you to survive and live happily or unhappily, day to day. As with Richard Sherman people love to say he has a loud mouth and he’s a jerk but he is far removed from being an imbecile. Congrats to all the participants in yesterday’s game, whether you’re a lifetime hater, or not! GO BLUE!!!
February 3rd, 2020 at 10:11 AM ^
In all honesty, the corporate world is no more or less fraught with disgusting behavior than the NFL. The only difference is that NFL players are in front of a camera.
Human behavior...that doesn't justify or make it right; but it does show those of us who are enlightened, how much further our society has to grow in order to eliminate these things.
Sometimes I wonder if we're going backwards, who knows...
February 3rd, 2020 at 10:13 AM ^
I’m very indifferent. Do I care that he won a super bowl? No. Do I care if you want to celebrate it? No.
Go Blue! Beat OSU
February 3rd, 2020 at 10:21 AM ^
Given Frank’s history he needs to be more humble, gracious and kind.
February 3rd, 2020 at 10:22 AM ^
I think it's OK to enjoy watching a guy play football and appreciate his skill and effort, while at the same time not necessarily agreeing with everything he's done in the past. On the one had we all make mistakes and it's hard to judge when you don't know the details and when you're in the public eye under scrutiny. On the other hand it's probably a safe bet he's used some questionable decision making. I try to just celebrate what you can and hold out hope people will learn from their mistakes and and become better people as they mature.
February 3rd, 2020 at 10:56 AM ^
"Not necessarily agreeing with everything he's done in the past" and "questionable decision making" is such a soft stance against the (very realistic) possibility of domestic abuse. He didn't cheat on a test or borrow money or say hurtful things.
If he hit his partner, it's unacceptable. Period.
February 3rd, 2020 at 12:47 PM ^
...such a soft stance against the (very realistic) possibility of domestic abuse. If he hit his partner, it's unacceptable. Period.
The reality is we weren't there and don't know what happened. We don't know that she didn't attack him first. We don't know that he didn't feel he had to physically stop her so she wouldn't assault him further. We have no idea. So, yeah I'll leave it at questionable judgement and hope he's learned from the experience and matured.
February 3rd, 2020 at 10:27 AM ^
He hit Jimmy G as hard as he hit his girlfriend.
February 3rd, 2020 at 10:45 AM ^
Congrats to Frank Clark.
February 3rd, 2020 at 10:52 AM ^
I don't know if he's reformed at all since his Michigan days. Maybe has has. Maybe he hasn't.
All I really know, and probably the only thing that really matters, is that he doesn't give a shit what any of us common folk think. He just won a Super Bowl and is bathing in cash. I doubt he gives a crap what Michigan fans think about his, shall we say, sordid past here.
February 3rd, 2020 at 10:53 AM ^
A lot of people on here must live in glass houses.
Michael Vick was driven out of society for dog fighting. Now he's on TV. Frank Clark has kept his nose clean since being kicked off the team. What does it take for some of you to offer him redemption? Read the MLive story. Walk a mile in his shoes. DV is what he grew up with. It sound to me like he learned his lesson and has turned his life around.
February 3rd, 2020 at 11:37 AM ^
I'm sure the family of the girl he beat is happy that their daughter, granddaughter, niece was there for him to learn a lesson.
February 3rd, 2020 at 12:16 PM ^
I’m sure they aren’t, but what does that have to do with him turning his life around. At what point can we let him be a member of society again, instead of ostracizing him from the public for his wrongdoing. He hasn’t ran from his fuck up, and seems to be on a path we all hoped he would’ve been on in the first place.
February 3rd, 2020 at 12:39 PM ^
Point is, past transgressions don't have to be weighted equally. Some things people should be forgiven for, others maybe not. And I'm not singling the guy out, I can give a list of people that when the "redemption story" starts getting thrown around it makes me cringe. If he is doing better, good for him...you aren't hitting women now, congrats. But I'm not going to pat you on the back, because the majority of us knew never to go there, we didn't need to be taught a lesson.
February 3rd, 2020 at 12:49 PM ^
But some of us have to be tripped up to know what path to follow...consider yourself blessed that you didn’t have those same pitfalls, doesn’t make you any better than the next man that has. My point is he fucked up! Would you rather have him out here making his same mistakes, or learning his lesson and being a positive member of society?
February 3rd, 2020 at 1:25 PM ^
I have made my share of mistakes, don't get that twisted. However, my mistakes pale in comparison. What do I want? I want people to stop equating athletes with idols just because of what they do on the field. Another poster mentioned it earlier in this discussion...people are acting like Kobe Bryant is a freaking saint because he was good at basketball. Had he not been good at basketball and had the cash to throw at his victim, he would have had a completely different experience. He would have been in jail, he wouldn't be praised for a week after his untimely death. But he could shoot a basketball so he gets thrown into the "well he is doing better now that he learned his lesson" category.
You are correct, without making mistakes we never truly learn. But that doesn't mean all mistakes have to be lumped into the same category. My question to you is where do you draw the line? Had he not stopped and killed the girl, should he still be able to have his redemption story? Is the line, well he didn't kill someone? The other side is well, do we know he isn't making the same mistakes or has he done the same thing and the victim just isn't coming forward? We don't know.
All I know is when you do something that potentially ruins another persons life, you don't just get to move on and say, well I made a mistake and I'm a better person now for it. That victim may not ever have their normal life back because of your "mistake". As a father, had he done this to my daughter I would have never stopped going after him until I made sure that his mistake impacted his life as much as it did my daughters.
February 3rd, 2020 at 2:16 PM ^
First of all Kobe settled a civil lawsuit...the DA and the state of Colorado dropped the charges. Ppl sometimes get those intertwined! Secondly, what line are you speaking of? Remorse, redemption and contrite have no limits in my opinion. For example, if a 14-year old murders someone. Is sent to prison comes out and is reformed, talks to youth being an advocate against violence. What better outcome could we want for that individual? Yes, we could stand on our high ground and talk about how you or I never murdered anyone...or we could applaud that individual for realizing the error in their ways and helping others from not going down that same path. We do not live in a Utopian society where everyone is going to live perfect lives. They will make mistakes big and small! Our hope is that when they do, they come out as better people on the other side. And this is coming from a guy who had a family member killed trying to break up a domestic violence situation.
February 4th, 2020 at 8:57 AM ^
The DA dropped the Bryant case, correct. Serious question though, if that wasn't Kobe Bryant and was Jim Smith, an insurance salesman from Spokane, WA, do you think the charges would have been dropped? No...the evidence was there along with rape tests that showed there was not consensual sex. I mean at this point it's a well known fact that high profile athletes get charges dropped that you or I would have been prosecuted for. I digress, I guess that's getting a bit off subject.
I'm all for reform, redemption stories, and rehabilitation in most cases. However, sexual assault, killing someone, and crimes of this nature to me deserve no retribution. Let's say a guy spends 10 years molesting children. You good with him living next door to you while you raise your kids because he hasn't done it since he was released from prison? Nope...not me. I guess it's just a difference of opinions. I have two daughters, and knowing that a man put his hands on either of them or sexually assaulted them is not going to fly with me, never has and never will. I'm not going to sit and applaud the guy because he decided he screwed up so bad he had to change. To me his redemption story can not come at the cost of ruining one of my kids lives. While many will sit and say, I'm so proud of this man for learning from his mistakes and becoming a better person, I am sitting saying, look at this woman that will never trust a man the rest of her life. She may never have kids or accomplish what she wanted for herself because of this man's terrible decisions. He can be reformed all he wants, but unless he can undo what he has done there is no redemption. A life does not need to be ruined for another person to change their ways....and that's where I draw the line.
EIther way, good discussion. I see your point of view and I share it in some circumstances. But I carry a clear black and white dividing line when it comes to what should be forgiven, and what constitutes an act so atrocious that second and third chances are not worth the risk to others.
February 3rd, 2020 at 1:21 PM ^
Username ch... uhhhh...
February 3rd, 2020 at 10:55 AM ^
It’s been kind of an odd week if you are a general sports fan and a Michigan Sports fan.
There seems to be a mixed reaction to Lewan and Clark every time they’re mentioned on this board. For the record, Clark was never convicted of any domestic violence charges (he was convicted of 4th degree misdemeanor for ‘persistent disorderly conduct’).
Lewan was never charged for his alleged involvement in the Gibbons debacle. He was convicted for two misdemeanors stemming from slugging a Buckeye fan whilst drunk.
I’m not here to claim the moral high ground and tell everyone how they should feel or not feel about those two. What I find interesting is a very prominent sports figure tragically passed that cheated on his wife in a sexual encounter that ended up with a felony rape charge and people are falling over each other to give social media tributes, hold moments of silence, etc.
I guess my question is this: if you hate Lewan based upon past behavior but have been in the ‘OMG I have to pay tribute to Kobe’ camp, how do you resonate the two?
Number 2, Given the #metoo culture that we’re in with plenty of men that have been drug through the social media mud based upon never even being charged with anything, why is Kobe being celebrated at all?
I realize I kind of got off topic but I have had this on my mind. Food for thought anyways.
February 3rd, 2020 at 11:16 AM ^
Food for thought anyways
Good post.
I call it the Nancy Grace syndrome... people are very quick to react, they condemn based upon emotion and not fact, and they never let anything go.
slugging a Buckeye fan whilst drunk
I'm kinda actually okay with this... and I'm guessing there's a chance the buckeye may have had it coming to them.
February 3rd, 2020 at 12:43 PM ^
Glad the Kobe situation was brought up...he was celebrated because he was one of the best to ever do it in his sport and because he might’ve been one of the best redemption stories in American history. Kobe for one had the charges dropped against him(conveniently decided to omit that detail but bring up the lesser charges that Lewan and Clark pleaded to). Secondly, even if you are still a critic of the actions that he took that night...one thing can’t be disputed, he was very contrite and hasn’t had a peep of scandalous or criminal activity since then. Which is difficult living in the home base of TMZ and being one of the most famous ppl on the planet. Thirdly, one of the biggest advocates for women in sports over the past decade has been one Kobe Bean Bryant. The reverence that Women soccer players and WNBA hoopers have shown him over the years is amazing. He was one of the ppl in their corner fighting for their rights as athletes when he very easily could’ve took his time and voice and used it elsewhere. Not to mention the many philanthropic endeavors he’s had. So can we shit on him for the decision he made at 23? Sure if you want to...but how about the model citizen, great husband and wonderful dad he has became since.
February 3rd, 2020 at 2:48 PM ^
I really didn’t think I needed to rehash the fact his rape charge was dropped because I think that’s obvious to everyone.
Also, I guess I’m confused a little bit about your Kobe remarks. Kobe was one of the greatest ever, no doubt. But why is it no one I’ve seen seems to care about what he did or didn’t do at age 23 yet the majority of people in this thread hold it against Lewan and Clark for what they did or didn’t do at that age (or younger)?
Lastly, you didn’t mention Kobe’s wife filed for divorce (later dropped) in 2011 after catching him...wait for it...cheating on her again. Is that your definition of a ‘great’ husband and father?
February 3rd, 2020 at 4:47 PM ^
Neither you or I can confirm whether the allegations his wife brought are true or not. What is fact, is that she stayed and had more children by him. So maybe she did decide he was a good husband and father after all. I have no issue with Clark or Lewan...both did stupid stuff and hopefully learned from their mistakes.
February 3rd, 2020 at 5:03 PM ^
Aaron Hernandez's girl stayed with him after he killed her sister's boyfriend...just sayin.
We have no idea what Kobe did in his private life. I'm sure he has a high priced PR team that filters everything we see.
February 3rd, 2020 at 8:24 PM ^
That can be said for anyone! All we can do is go off the evidence that is presented to us. The guy never made a misstep again.
February 3rd, 2020 at 8:39 PM ^
She is a who're. BUT a high priced whore.
February 3rd, 2020 at 4:55 PM ^
I never knew how the Clark stuff turned out, thanks for that.
February 3rd, 2020 at 11:01 AM ^
Taylor Lewan is the about the line for me in celebrating their achievements, so that's a no on Frank Clark. He was kicked off the team for his conduct, and while I hope that he learned his lesson and changed his conduct and attitude, that's something he has to earn back and nothing that he's done to this point (that I know of) has shown me that he's a different person.
February 3rd, 2020 at 11:14 AM ^
sometimes i wonder "what's tate forcier up to these days?"
then i realize..... not what he should be.
Ten seconds after that first thought, i go on with my life.