Four Ten Win Seasons in Five Years
Was just staring at Jim's record and thinking about history. He's in his fifth season here, and already has three ten-win seasons. Let's say--for argument's sake--that Michigan loses to OSU but wins the rest of its regular-season games and bowl in '19-'20. NOT a foregone conclusion, but a not unreasonable supposition.
If Michigan has won ten games in four of Harbaugh's five first seasons is there any reason at all to say he hasn't been successful? Does history look down on mgoblog and conclude that the hysteria here was anything more than myopic, especially given a corrupt and commercialized sport in which the university struggled to maintain some modicum of probity and sanity? Five seasons on and four ten-win seasons behind him--would there be some serious basis for complaint other than 'not beating OSU'?
Yes, this is a speculative exercise.
October 28th, 2019 at 8:04 AM ^
My complaints would be the bowl losses to USC and Florida. Especially last year's bowl left a bad taste in my mouth. I don't see assuming we win every game is anything but magical thinking, but when I see a lack of effort, then I feel there's legitimate grounds for complaint.
October 28th, 2019 at 8:23 AM ^
Fair complaints. I don't get to upset at the florida bowl game other than we should have been getting guys on the field that would be playing this season when injuries piled up, regarding the defense. Half the defense sat out for the draft and the other half was injured during the game. The offense only putting up 10pts, well that was a disaster.
My biggest complaints are with Harbaugh not being in control in the key moments of the game. That's when you need to be the leader! 2016 vs Osu I know the refs took that game but Harbaugh didn't have to let them. No personal foul, that was bs. The first down call in OT, instead of ranting about it and going on about the challenge, he should have been with Don Brown getting the defense ready.. IE Key Moment in the game... Get your team together.. There were times the last couple years in losses that I believed he needed to be with the coordinator and players rallying the troops, getting them back in the game after giving up a bad play or score. Being in control managing the clock at the end of the half or game.
Last part is killer instinct to put teams away. I know other teams have something to do with it and they aren't going away. However there are times you can see they pull off the gas pedal when that is the time to go full speed ahead. Ie Iowa, up 10-0, we should have stayed aggressive and put that game away with more points. Illinois this season, respond to their td by going after another td to let them know this game is out of reach!
October 28th, 2019 at 9:34 AM ^
I agree with the killer instinct part. That's what I really liked on Saturday. I do think they came out after halftime a bit to conservative, but then decided to pile on and crush the ND spirit after the ND TD. That was good to see.
October 28th, 2019 at 12:03 PM ^
In the 2016 he should have been rallying his team instead of arguing a call? So you're saying we were just one pep-talk (not 3 crooked refs) away from winning that game? Damn...what an idiot Harbaugh is for not knowing that!
October 28th, 2019 at 9:51 AM ^
To be fair, I think that exact thing infuriates coach as well. But, in the current era, what do you think he can realistically do about it?
October 28th, 2019 at 11:53 AM ^
I agree the bowl game losses have hurt way more than they should because of the trajectory of the teams at the end of seasons, and then carrying all of that negativity through the entire offseason.
Losing to OSU is soul-crushing, but understandable considering their level recently, but to follow it up with another loss to a team we should beat, while losing in a way that often accentuates the weaknesses on the team through the season as opposed to seeing improvement in the 4 weeks of bowl prep.
In general, the narrative of Harbaugh's tenure feels worse than the actual Ws and Ls. Most years we seem to have some momentum only for the team to taper off at the end, and in general, we had a lot of upward momentum peaking at right before "the spot" in 2016 and then have been somewhat adrift and struggling to get back to that level since.
October 28th, 2019 at 12:06 PM ^
Bowl games don’t matter much in these days. If you are not in the playoffs, or maybe the New Years six, a lot of players check out literally or mentally. So though USC and Florida loses don’t bother me much.
October 28th, 2019 at 8:04 AM ^
Of course, that’s successful. It’s “top-10 program in the country” successful. OBJECTIVELY successful.
But plenty of talking heads and people on this board will still insist otherwise.
October 28th, 2019 at 8:26 AM ^
Right. Because it’s not B1G championships or playoffs or national titles.
”why can’t we have nice things?”
because our fan base moans and groans like a bunch of over privileged frat boys when we have nice things and complains that said things aren’t actually all that nice
October 28th, 2019 at 9:00 AM ^
Losing to Ohio State every year, and no Big Ten championships to show for it is the reason, and rightfully so. But you still cannot ask for his head. 4 of 5 10 win seasons is incredible - but the goals of every season is NOT to get to 10 wins, it is to win a national championship/make playoffs/win big ten/beat OSU. And NONE look to be accomplished in 4 of those 5 seasons.
October 28th, 2019 at 9:54 AM ^
OSU has had seven 11 win seasons in a row. I know they recruit better than us, but that puts 10 win seasons in perspective
October 28th, 2019 at 10:06 PM ^
Nick Saban...pretty decent coach I think we would all agree. In ELEVEN seasons at the helm of three different programs prior to taking over at Bagmen State University of Alabama, Nick had TWO ten win seasons. He didn’t get smarter or better just because he spent two disastrous seasons in the NFL.
Cheating and paying players is all that will ever fix what you people want fixed. Not gonna happen at UofM. Get over it.
October 28th, 2019 at 10:14 AM ^
What really grinds the gears is just how close we’ve been. Literal inches in 2016 from likely B10 championship and playoff appearance. If Maryland catches a wide open 2 point conversion last year vs. OSU, Michigan is playing NW in Indianapolis. Oh well. Heading in the right direction and I think we’ll break through soon.
October 28th, 2019 at 10:34 AM ^
Honestly, this is what broke me in terms of my UM fandom. I came to the conclusion that there really is some galactic conspiracy in place to deny UM a Big 10 championship.
Even things which are completely out of UM's control have conspired to screw them over several times in the past few years. My psyche simply could not take any more abuse.
Note: I don't actually think there is a galactic conspiracy to deny UM a Big 10 championship, but, damn, it sure seems like it.
October 28th, 2019 at 10:59 AM ^
Piggy!!!!
October 28th, 2019 at 4:43 PM ^
I'm confident in the fact that if I walked up to ANY Michigan fan and asked them, what's the most important accomplishment in any football season... they'd all say:
"BEAT OHIO STATE"
So don't feed me your line of bullshit about how this fanbase expects "too much". I'm also almost certain that if I asked those same individuals if they'd rather beat Ohio or have an NC, most would respond "BEAT OHIO STATE". *The fact of the matter just happens to be that the road to the NC goes through Columbus... but still "BEAT OHIO STATE"
If the above is lost on you, meaning that you respond with some sort of rhetorical response, or aloof / flippant posturing... well then, that's a personal problem that you'll need to resolve. However, the point of the story is...
"BEAT OHIO STATE"
October 28th, 2019 at 8:28 AM ^
I wore my Michigan hat to church on Sunday. I normally wear the official church logo'd hat since I'm on the parking team, but everyone else was wearing costumes for the upcoming pagan celebration. Go figure...
Anyway, I had a number of people walk past and comment: "Great game last night!" Harbaugh saved his job with that win." Caveat that I'm SEC territory, but still, there is a perception.
October 28th, 2019 at 8:31 AM ^
Parking team! I do the same thing at my church.
October 28th, 2019 at 9:41 AM ^
I'm in Penn State country, with a smattering of buckeye trash laying around. I get a fair amount of jabs, as I'm usually wearing something with the Block M on it.
This weekend a few PSU fans said shit like, "sorry about that game last week" . I replied, "shit that was the best game we played all year, I loved it! Would have been better if we scored 8 more points, but I'll take it." Both times a real football conversation followed.
Jim Harbaugh didn't take over a team ready to compete for Big 10 championships, he took over a team that had been poorly managed for most of 10 years. Yeah, we all want Big 10 Championships and we all want to be a play off team, I believe it will happen. Yes, this is year 5 and everyone wanted consistent improvement from year one to now and that would have us competing with the big boys by now. That would be great, but was maybe a little to lofty of an expectation. The setback in quality of play this year due to a new OC, who has the keys and is installing a new offense shouldn't be surprising.
If we continue to build off of PSU game and Saturday's game, things are coming together the way they should. This team with Dylan under center, when the coaches are confident that he's ready, not when the fans are yelling loudest, could be a lot of fun to watch and is probably just what we've all been waiting for.
Onwanrd, GO BLUE
October 28th, 2019 at 8:35 AM ^
If you asked Harbaugh, and he was being honest, what do you think he would say? He has had good seasons, but if he hasn't achieved any of the teams goals, would he consider it a success? I'm thinking not. Team goals every year, beat your rivals, win your bowl game, win a championship, make the playoffs.
October 28th, 2019 at 12:05 PM ^
I take comfort in knowing that Jim Harbaugh will do his best to keep this program competitive. Last year's offense was really pretty good, but he was willing to shake it all up with a new and more forward-thinking OC. He is also unsatisfied with 10 win seasons where many coaches with his level of program support would be.
October 28th, 2019 at 8:38 AM ^
Because it’s basically overpaying for Michigan’s version of John Cooper.
Ten wins looks alright until you look at the schedule and there’s usually 2-4 automatic wins a season. No conference championship game, no playoff, no OSU wins. Seems kinda empty if you ask me.
October 28th, 2019 at 8:58 AM ^
It's kind of no use to discuss this. You're either a "10 win Harbaugh Cultist", or a "Hater".
I loved the Sat night game, destroyed a hated rival, beat a top 10 team, saw real progress everywhere, excellent gameplan, none of the usual clock-coaching blunders.
But does that make me a cultist because I appreciate (and give due credit) that Harbaugh will achieve some win total benchmark, or rival/top 10 win benchmark? They're real, and damn important for this program.
At the same time, a PSU win (while not as personally satisfying) would have kept the b1g race alive. and the Wisconsin failure isn't magically off the books for some reason.
I'm hoping (and hopefull) that the team keeps improving, but if the coaching staff fucks up (as they most certainly have this season) I'm going to criticize them for it.
October 28th, 2019 at 9:41 AM ^
I love this reply. It pretty much sums it up. However, this will continue to be discussed ad nauseam in here. I do not know one person alive that wants his Alma mater or team to be successful more than our coach. Also, if you want your flagship to sail all one has to do is mention his name and voila,”you have your 30 to 60 minute time slot, immediately filled.” Our coach is not perfect. We all have faults. Lastly, because I’m tired of it myself. We have more than enough data to conclude that their is a mini bias against us as a team/university. Calls go against us at home and away that cannot be overlooked. Pass interferences for and against us, inches create miles among our fans.(OSU game in Columbus) We haven’t had any breaks. Getting off of my soap box by simply stating,”we’re in a better place than we have been in, in awhile and I enjoyed the game with all of my soaking clothes and all Saturday night!” GO BLUE
October 28th, 2019 at 9:28 AM ^
Unless you are contributing to his pay, it has nothing to do with this argument.
October 28th, 2019 at 9:37 AM ^
That is a silly comparison. Cooper lost an undefeated season against an eventual 4-loss Michigan team THREE TIMES. (He also lost an undefeated season with perhaps the best team in the country at home to a 6-6 MSU team.)
Harbaugh has yet to play an OSU team that hasn’t finished in the top-6 in the polls.
October 28th, 2019 at 9:43 AM ^
You have to be a pretty decent team to start with to just have 4 "automatic" wins a season.
October 28th, 2019 at 9:50 AM ^
There have been 2-4 (or more) automatic wins in the Michigan schedule since forever.
October 28th, 2019 at 11:04 AM ^
Tell that to Hoke. I believe Akron and Toledo (not to mention UConn) were "automatic". We are doing a lot better than we were at any point between 2007 and 2014, except maybe that one year Hoke got so tremendously lucky on fumble recoveries.
October 28th, 2019 at 8:36 PM ^
Yes. We are doing better than the worst stretch of performances in michigan’s history, except for that one year that was better than anything that Harbaugh has done in his entire time as coach here.
That’s a weird argument. Harbaugh didn’t come here to be better than dog shit Hoke and RR, so I’m not sure why you choose to judge him based on that metric.
October 28th, 2019 at 11:08 AM ^
I get the Cooper comparisons, but let’s face it, OSU for the last two decades has been at a level Michigan has only ever dreamed about. Cooper was losing to 8-4 Lloyd Carr teams, Harbaugh is losing to 10-1 Urban Meyer teams. There’s a difference. And let’s wait to see how Harbaugh does against Ryan Day before concluding he will never beat OSU.
October 28th, 2019 at 10:33 PM ^
Bruce's teams were good. Cooper's teams were a little better. Tressel's teams were a little better still. But Meyer's teams were historically good. They passed through ludicrous and went straight to plaid under Meyer. They've had ONE(?) down year since like 1999. Fucking insanity.
It is very important that we beat OSU soon, for the mental health of this fanbase and the health of the M-OSU rivalry.
October 28th, 2019 at 11:23 AM ^
Cooper wasn’t losing to top 10 Michigan teams. He was losing to 4 loss Michigan teams. He was losing to .500 MSU teams.
Now let’s ask ourselves, what is the worst team Harbaugh has lost to at Michigan?
The Cooper comparison is asinine.
October 28th, 2019 at 12:50 PM ^
John Cooper earned his reputation by completely choking against Michigan many times.
1993 - #5 Buckeye team (10-0-1) gets blasted by 7-4 Michigan 28-0.
1995 - #2 undefeated Buckeyes lose to 8-3, #18 Michigan.
1996 - #2 undefeated Buckeyes lose to 8-3, #21 Michigan in Columbus.
Those are the games where John Cooper really earned his reputation. He wasn't stepping into a disaster of a program and losing to elite Michigan teams while trying to play catch up to us. He was choking against Michigan in the worst way. And it's pretty arguable whether he actually got fired for losing to Michigan as the narrative tends to be, considering he went 6-6 and 8-4 his last two seasons.
I would love to get over the hump and beat them, but the Cooper comparison doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Harbaugh has been behind the 8-ball against OSU from day one.
October 28th, 2019 at 8:45 AM ^
Agree, it just hasn't met the expectation of beating Osu and winning the Big Ten to make it to the CFP! Very successful, not an ounce of reason to be on the hot seat and every reason to support more and more to accomplish the major goals. Our fans should have learned a lesson about a complete change in the program, IE Rich Rod....
October 28th, 2019 at 12:15 PM ^
During the ND game they mentioned that only six B1G coaches have six or more 10-win seasons. If Harbaugh indeed gets to 10 wins again this year and makes it four in his first five seasons, that is rather unprecedented success only matched (exceeded) by Meyer.
October 28th, 2019 at 9:43 AM ^
It is very successful and if we win 10 games this year the talking heads need to give him credit for being a very good coach rather then we should get rid of him. He’s winning at a higher percentage then both Bo and Carr. We have it pretty good people and we need to realize it. Things could be a lot worse
October 28th, 2019 at 8:18 AM ^
If he pulls that off this year I will be impressed and you are right that is not a foregone thing...at all! I also think it's okay to criticize if he has yet to beat osu. That is part of the record too. That said, gosh dang if they/he wins 10 games in 4 of his 5 years it's hard to not really appreciate that and hope that they are just a step away from being elite.
October 28th, 2019 at 8:19 AM ^
I agree that the ways we have lost in the bowls and last years OSU have a lot to do with the narrative. Also 10 wins isn’t what it used to be. Those seasons you are talking about are all 3 loss seasons. That means we lost to the two powers of the Big Ten usually and then lost our bowl. No one cares about our win/loss record to Rutgers. They care about being publicly humiliated against top ten teams and our rivals.
October 28th, 2019 at 10:09 AM ^
No one cares about our win/loss record to Rutgers. They care about being publicly humiliated against top ten teams and our rivals.
We care about both. Losing to Rutgers wasn't so fun.
October 28th, 2019 at 8:19 AM ^
The bowl games have become such non-events if you aren't in the BCS playoff for the kids. The team we put on the field against Florida was not the team we put on the field in 2018. I like to win the games but they have changed now that kids sit out. I'm not blaming the kids but the bowl isn't what it used to be. That being said, yes four 10 win seasons is successful to me. I think we had maybe one the previous 8 years before Harbaugh or something like that.
October 28th, 2019 at 8:40 AM ^
If bowls don’t count, why is harbaugh’s first year “10 wins”?
success at Michigan = beating OSU. He could have 30 ten win seasons, but if it’s paired with 30 losses to OSU people will rightly complain.
October 28th, 2019 at 8:48 AM ^
I'm not happy about OSU owning us but I would still say he has been successful. The 7 years before Harbaugh really set the program back. I was talking to a buddy of mine who is from Nebraska and he was talking about Osborne. He didn't with a title until something like his 22nd year and lost to Oklahoma 9 out of the first 10 times but is remembered as a legend. Sometimes things just take more time than we like. OSU is just a juggernaut right now. No one in the conference has really had much success against them. I'm not willing to label Harbaugh unsuccessful due to his problems with one opponent.
October 28th, 2019 at 9:14 AM ^
Wow. I knew Tom Osborne started slow but crazy that he only beat his only rival 1x out of the first 9 meetings. Hoping Harbaugh does better than that.
October 28th, 2019 at 8:43 AM ^
The National Championship (and players sitting out to protect their draft) have ruined the bowl season. Watching Michigan with half the team sitting out and then losing, sucks. I'd love it if everyone played a bowl game and then the NC was played a week later based on conference strength in the bowls and and overall record. That way all of the 12-1 teams would have a chance to play in the NC and the bowls would mean something for the other schools.
Harbaugh needs to win some big games, but 4 10 win season is much preferable to the wilderness we were in with RR and Hoke. The program is on a solid foundation and is a few good reads (Shea) from being elite. Don Brown also needs to lose sleep over Ohio State fer godsakes.
October 28th, 2019 at 9:29 AM ^
As a team we had probably one of the most guys sitting out last year. It's not as bad as you're making it out to be. Florida seemed to care.
October 28th, 2019 at 8:52 AM ^
Stupid to buy bowl tickets given the trend. It's an inferior product being put on the field (which is the expected outcome when you combine the irrelevance of all non playoff games with draft concerns for eligible players).
October 28th, 2019 at 9:12 AM ^
I actually totally agree with this take. I was working in Atlanta last winter, so bought tickets to the game and went. That game left an awfully sour taste in my mouth. Unless it proved to be pretty convenient on my end, I'm not so sure I'm going to make the effort to attend any bowl games going forward (with the obvious caveat, if it's a playoff game). I'll always, always cheer them on via the television and will go to many regular-season games going forward. But if we're going to call it what it is, if players are going to sit out and not care, why should I?
October 28th, 2019 at 8:24 AM ^
Whoever is the Michigan coach the main standard for success was, is and always will be...record vs Ohio State
October 28th, 2019 at 8:39 AM ^
Well, unless Michigan decides to go the the route of OSU, Bama, Georgia Oklahoma and Clemson and just starts buying 5 stars it is going to be very difficult. Even more so when the head of the league has the refs favoring the team with the best chance at a playoff.