Is due process only for other schools?
I was thinking about the Big Ten conference and how two coaches have been fired this year: Pat Fitzgerald and Mel Tucker, both for cause. But both schools conducted their own investigations before firing their coaches. Michigan found out about Connor Stalions around two weeks ago. Why are they not given the same grace period to look into these allegations? If the Pat Fitzgerald news had come out on its own, without an NU investigation, would the rest of the conference be asking for his head in the same hasty manner? Along the same lines, has a university ever sued a conference for something like this, as it has been suggested in another post that Michigan will do?
November 5th, 2023 at 9:41 AM ^
Apparently yes. The rest of the big ten has their torches and pitchforks out because they read stuff on twitter and they want blood
November 5th, 2023 at 9:51 AM ^
Nah, this is working the refs. Michigan is good, really good, and this is a convenient fig leaf to chase off Harbaugh and make Michigan not-so-good.
November 5th, 2023 at 9:54 AM ^
Fuck the rest of the Big10 at this point. I don't care if we leave or stay. But if we stay, I want to pound every one of them into the dirt every time we play them. With character and especially cruelty. They've made their bed, now let them sleep in it.
What pisses me off is that they are so quick to jump on the bandwagon with Ohio State. The same Ohio State that leaves their star QB in the game during a blowout just to pad his stats. Now that's fucking sportsmanship. At least when Michigan blows you out, it's with their 2nd and 3rd string playing the whole 4th quarter.
November 5th, 2023 at 10:23 AM ^
Thanks. I've asked a similar question before.
Of course I'm assuming that OSU is behind much of this. Early leaks on their boards suggest as much.
If true, why is the rest of the conference doing the bidding of cheating OSU? How has OSU performed mind control on other schools? I'm genuinely curious. They're a richer and much more corrupt version of Michigan. Seems that taking them down a peg or two would be a more reasonable strategy.
November 5th, 2023 at 10:48 AM ^
This is where I am frustrated with the university. If they do not have evidence of questionable behaviors of OSU ( Quinn Ewers and others) then go get it. They have the resources yet they act passively.
November 5th, 2023 at 11:03 AM ^
My two cents: Because they feel that what Stalions did was out of bounds and that Harbaugh (or at least someone on the main staff) had to have known.
Paraphrasing Matt Rhule, its fine when you cheat in acceptable ways, such as paying players in ways you shouldn't, tampering with transfers, etc. But in-person advance scouting that isn't actually in-person advanced scouting that might not even technically be illegal? That is a bridge too far.
Its just picking and choosing what you care about. Does it matter that literally every team should have a plan in case their signs are stolen since its legal? Does it matter that every game is watched by 10s of thousands of people every weekend and almost certainly information on signs in gleaned from fan recordings, people attending the games and so on? Does it matter that sign stealers trade information on each other? Does it matter that you can glean what an opponent is doing based on regular scouting? Does it matter that all of the sideline videos being posted of Stalions aren't proof of anything other than him doing his job (which is legal)? Does it matter than Urban Meyer said he has a coach dedicated solely toward watching Michigan all year (Wow, wonder what that meant!). Shit, does it matter that Urban Meyer gets to be on the Michigan sideline and at Michigan games and then go report back to Ryan Day? The answer is nah, Stalions did something SO EGREGIOUS that Michigan must be punished. Even though now we have multiple Big Ten games where the other team knows about at least the effects of the operation (2022 Ohio State according to them, 2023 MSU and Purdue) and the result has been a blowout each time.
Want to know something the NCAA cares about? Lying to the NCAA. Want to know who lied to the NCAA? Justin Fields and Ohio State. Justin Fields and Ohio State flat out lied about his reason for wanting to transfer to Ohio State and Georgia. What do you think had a bigger effect on a season: Trading Tate Martell for Justin Fields or Stalions? Fields accounted for 51 touchdowns in 2019 for Ohio State. Should Michigan have hired a PI to prove that Fields left Georgia not because he was worried for his safety (crock of shit) and because he lost the starting job to Jake Fromm? In hindsight, I guess they should have.
Going forward there should be an 8 figure PI budget every season keeping tabs on every other contender in the Big Ten with monthly reports turned in to the AD and then turned over to Big Ten.
November 5th, 2023 at 11:16 AM ^
These football HCs are, by and large, extremely overpaid leeches with a strong self-preservation instinct. They're carrying water because anything that appears to taint the last two-and-a-half seasons makes it easier to hand-wave poor performance. That increases the amount of time that they can collect huge paychecks with no results to show for it.
November 5th, 2023 at 8:23 PM ^
The number one thing you can do to win is collect more talent then other schools.
OSU has beat 13 big ten schools by a wide margin for 2 decades. Doesnt that matter at all? Arent they tired of OSU winning every recruiting battle every single time? Forget signs that is what give a huge unfair advantage.
November 5th, 2023 at 10:46 AM ^
I’ve been thinking about this and the ACC is the play. They would jump at the chance to add Michigan. They are arguably the most impressive academic conference with Notre Dame, Stanford and Cal added (to go along with UVA, UNC, and Georgia Tech). We already have a natural/regional rival in Notre Dame. And we could leave behind Staee, and the Buckeyes. If tradition (like Bedlam) is out the window who gives a fuck? Adapt or die. Just change the name to the All Coasts Conference.
November 5th, 2023 at 10:49 AM ^
I would love this. It would cost money initially but will generate over time. What is the value lost to the Big Ten without Michigan?
November 5th, 2023 at 11:01 AM ^
I am liking this idea more and more if the economics could be in the ballpark with where we are.
November 5th, 2023 at 11:09 AM ^
Beat Ohio State this year, drop the mic and leave. I like it.
November 5th, 2023 at 2:14 PM ^
I'm an old guy, traditionalist, former season ticket holder and love CFB rivalries. If this shit goes down unjustifiably, I'm all in at leaving this now shitty conference. It will reap what it sows.
Now get off my lawn!
November 5th, 2023 at 5:24 PM ^
A whole bunch of us agree with you and made similar posts. With Stanford and Cal’s addition, and ND as an affiliate, the top half of the ACC is actually academically stronger than the Big Ten even if it is not from top to bottom.
November 5th, 2023 at 10:48 AM ^
Think about it, you have OSU and then coaches that have coached there so, WI and Rutgers. That is 3 schools..of course MSU, but, also add PSU and Indiana. 6 schools just off top of head that will do anything to go against Michigan
November 5th, 2023 at 12:17 PM ^
Don't forget Illinois. We are huge rivals, according to them.
November 5th, 2023 at 12:57 PM ^
I get that schiano coached at OSU and can be linked to them, but I seriously doubt Rutgers is one of the “5” schools whose head coaches wants a suspension. Just doesn’t seem like a schiano type of move. All of the others you mentioned, including Illinois seem a lot more likely.
November 5th, 2023 at 2:17 PM ^
I don’t know. Schiano was the first to complain. Remember when he was interviewed at halftime and said some things going on weren’t right.
November 5th, 2023 at 8:01 PM ^
Schiano was the first to complain. Remember when he was interviewed at halftime and said some things going on weren’t right.
He clarified a week or two ago that he was talking about the officials, definitely not about Michigan.
November 5th, 2023 at 12:56 PM ^
I haven't had any love for the rest of the Big Ten ever since App State when every Big Ten school cheered and rejoiced at Michigan's embarrassment of being the first FBS program to lose to an FCS team. I haven't rooted for another Big Ten team to win even when it would have possibly been in Michigan's best interest. Just like they all root against us. Eff em all.
November 5th, 2023 at 9:42 AM ^
That’s the crux of this particular issue. The hysteria whipping people into a frenzy to apply a punishment before the case has been properly investigated and adjudicated.
A college football version of The Crucible.
November 5th, 2023 at 9:59 AM ^
Harbaugh must be a witch!
November 5th, 2023 at 10:14 AM ^
Quick put him in a pond and see if he floats!!
November 5th, 2023 at 10:30 AM ^
"He turned me into a newt!" - Ryan Day
"A newt? You look like a rat"
November 5th, 2023 at 11:32 AM ^
"He turned me into a newt!" - Ryan Day
"A newt? You look like a rat"
"I got better"
November 5th, 2023 at 12:49 PM ^
"Did you, though?"
November 5th, 2023 at 9:42 AM ^
I wouldn’t want to go near Mel Tucker’s head after hearing what he does on Zoom.
November 5th, 2023 at 9:47 AM ^
No one should be surprised by this. This is the world a lot of people created. When someone does something others don't like, bansh them forever. No investigation needed.
November 5th, 2023 at 10:07 AM ^
One of the major downsides of the internet and social media. People are absolutely whipped into a frenzy right now over rumors. Obviously Stallions broke rules and it should be investigated, but the echo chamber of Michigan haters has got themselves clamoring for major punishments before an investigation has started
November 5th, 2023 at 10:28 AM ^
I don't disagree with your point, but it works the other way as well. If we didn't have the net and social media, we would be getting a steady diet of the pitchfork crowd, and less of the folks that bring us tangible truths.
November 5th, 2023 at 5:39 PM ^
Objection! Speculation.
You're doing the same thing to Stalions as what the B1G wants to do to Harbaugh. Let the investigation run its course. All we've seen is through the lens of bad characters out to smear Michigan and Harbaugh. Give Stalions the same benefit that you want Harbaugh to get.
And his resignation is not an admission of guilt. For him, this is about honor. The honorable thing is to fall on the grenade to save your team.
November 5th, 2023 at 10:25 AM ^
Yep, basically the media is trying to cancel Harbaugh.
November 5th, 2023 at 9:48 AM ^
Neither of those coaches’ actions directly impacted games or other teams. The big ten is alleging that Harbaugh either knew or didn’t control his staff. But even if that’s true, I also don’t see how suspending Harbaugh changes anything about the alleged cheating…its already stopped. it’s just punishment for the sake of punishment.
November 5th, 2023 at 9:56 AM ^
Not that I'm condoning this, but retroactive punishment like vacating wins should it be found that Harbaugh was a ringleader or absolutely knew about this, would be a more appropriate way to go than just haphazardly punishing someone before finding out whether a crime was committed. I also think it's interesting how laser-focused they are on Harbaugh. It's very telling.
November 5th, 2023 at 10:03 AM ^
Vacating wins is collective punishment. That isn’t fair to the players.
If Harbaugh is found to be a ringleader or absolutely knew about this than a year long suspension would be in order.
But I sincerely doubt that he did.
November 5th, 2023 at 10:12 AM ^
Vacating wins or keeping Michigan out of the Big Ten Tournament this year is the only logically consistent punishment. If they truly have evidence the sign stealing was done illegally and it impacted the outcomes of games, then that would make sense. Given we know they can’t currently prove any of that, don’t see how they can justify any other preemptive punishment until presenting their evidence and giving Michigan a chance to respond.
November 5th, 2023 at 10:46 AM ^
So now the conference is going to ban Michigan teams from the Big Ten Tournament?!
They really are out of control and hate Michigan
November 5th, 2023 at 11:08 AM ^
Right, how would you even prove it? If you use an ineligible player, you can point to what they did on the field. Because sign-stealing and scouting are legal, you can't actually discern how much of an advantage Michigan cleaned from Stalions information.
There is one thing a journalist - lol - could check on though. The player safety claims. Someone could go back and get the numbers on 2021 and 2022 injuries to opponents in Michigan games and cross reference it against their prior seasons, averages across college football, etc. That would be responsible if you are going to publish nonsense comments from people like Matt Rhule or AD Haller at MSU.
November 5th, 2023 at 10:13 AM ^
I also think it's interesting how laser-focused they are on Harbaugh. It's very telling.
This is a great point. They are laser-focused on Harbaugh without any direct evidence implicating him. The NCAA could hand down some bullshit penalty against Harbaugh, even without direct evidence implicating him, under the guise of the coach's responsibility. But does the B1G even have such a rule for punishing the coach without any evidence of direct involvement?
November 5th, 2023 at 10:51 AM ^
Supposedly they can suspend 2 games..anything more needs approval
November 5th, 2023 at 11:03 AM ^
I imagine if OSU is behind this, it is Ryan Day's petty response to Harbaugh calling him out on multiple occasions, namely the born on third comment, and this, from three years ago:
"Harbaugh alleged that Ohio State had been having on-field instruction and drills already even though NCAA rules currently forbid it. Harbaugh also said that Ohio State linebackers coach Al Washington was seen in a photo working with Ohio State linebackers.
Day reportedly responded by saying, "How about I worry about my team and you worry about yours?"
Would not surprise me if Day was mad enough, especially after losing two years in a row to Harbaugh, to have some OSU slappy start to look into M's program after this and the losses.
November 5th, 2023 at 4:00 PM ^
And why wasn't that investigated? That sounds like it would have an impact on the field, that sounds like cheating to me. The B1G knew there was an allegation and did absolutely nothing, instead they changed the rules for OSU to make the title game.
You can easily point to that and say this is a witch hunt. I'm sure the B1G would say that OSU did nothing wrong even though they never actually checked.
November 5th, 2023 at 5:45 PM ^
This is probably what happened. If it turns out that that this did occur and they also sourced information illegally I would literally make this a federal case and refer it to the Justice Department and not just an NCAA or Big Ten violation.
November 5th, 2023 at 10:02 AM ^
I mean, punish the team by vacating wins and restricting scholarships once they have their findings. I'm fine with that. But if it turns out that, in fact, Harbaugh didn't know, or is no more "in the know" than every other head coach who has seen rules violations under his watch, then preemptively punishing him wouldn't solve anything.
I will say that in the case of Fitzgerald information came out pretty quickly that other staff members knew about the behavior and a bunch of players had complained for years. And that's NW, which doesn't have any media scrutiny and a pretty insular culture. If there was some smoking gun showing Harbaugh knew and multiple staff members colluded I assumed it would have been leaked. So my guess is its more tangential, more "he should have known" stuff that will be harder to prove.
November 5th, 2023 at 10:10 AM ^
It also involved, you know, potential criminal sexual assault, as opposed to a rule imposed to save small teams money in 1994.
November 5th, 2023 at 11:31 AM ^
Well, I've been led to believe that what Stalions did was grounds for him being brought up before the Hague.
November 5th, 2023 at 11:12 AM ^
I don't think they will vacate wins unless its proven a coach knew about what was going on and lied about it. Because there are no ineligible players involved, it seems unlikely.
November 5th, 2023 at 5:39 PM ^
If we did something wrong then we need to be accountable. However the rush to judgement is not about determining culpability it’s about envy and Schadenfreude. It’s one thing to make us vacate wins, it’s a whole other thing trying to shut down our program in the middle of a season simply because we are having a good season and they are crapping the bed. It’s particularly galling when we have always taken an egalitarian position on splitting media income shares equally instead of taking the Texas approach and insisting that all compensation should be disbursed pro rata based on programs’ media value. Why should we subsidize duplicitous ingrates. Let them find their own way to finance their athletic departments instead of taking an equal share that aren’t entitled to according to the value they create. It’s one thing if they are willing to allow us due process rights and are not going out of their way to cause harm. That is not the case and we should therefore not feel any obligation to cut the others in on an equal share. The ACC ought to be a party that we are speaking to though independence might be more realistic because the PR optics right now might make us persona non grata.
November 5th, 2023 at 9:51 AM ^
It’s not about the school. It’s about coach Harbaugh. The fear isn’t hard to smell!
November 5th, 2023 at 9:53 AM ^
I understand what you're saying about Mel Tucker but he was fired for cause for something he openly admitted to doing. It didn't really require due process or an investigation.
He was fired before the result of the RVSM hearing. In fact, assuming he appealed, last I checked, that's not even final yet.