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Discussion: 50 Greatest Coaches All Time

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August 24th, 2012 at 6:57 PM
#1
DonAZ
DonAZ's picture
Joined: 12/05/2011
MGoPoints: 665
Discussion: 50 Greatest Coaches All Time

[ed-S: No bleacher report but this is a fun topic and the end of the OT leniency is nigh, so just skip the link and have at the discussion.]

Over at Bleacher Report (link) they have a story on the 50 greatest coaches of all time.  Any sport, apparently, since many sports are represented.

<< Honestly, I had no idea BR was so universally reviled.  My bad.  Apologies. >>

[EDIT] Rumor is there's a list on the interwebs somewhere that has a list of the top 50 coaches of all time.  Without considering the source, but rather just musing on the list as if it was randomly created by 50 monkeys and a typewriter, some questions come to mind. [/EDIT]

The list is shown below.  Bo Schembechler is #42.  Woody Hayes #34.  John Wooden is #1.

As I clicked through the slideshow over at the link questions came up in my mind:

Q1 - What sport demands greater coaching skills, and why?

Q2 - How much did name recognition factor into some of these selections?  (For example, Knute Rockne is on list but Fielding Yost is not.)

Q3 - How much did longevity factor into the list?  (For example, Dean Smith is well above Mike Krzyzewsk.)

Q4 - What names on this list are rated too low?  And why?

Q5 - What names rated too high?  And why?

Just Friday evening musing in the absence of football that is only 8 days away!!

The list is, from #1 to #50 is:

  1. John Wooden - Basketball
  2. Vince Lombardi - Football
  3. Dean Smith - Basketball
  4. Bear Bryant - Football
  5. Scotty Bowman - Hockey
  6. Don Shula - Football
  7. Pete Newell - Basketball
  8. Knute Rockne - Football
  9. Paul Brown - Football
  10. Red Auerbach - Basketball
  11. Morgan Wootten - Basketball
  12. Phil Jackson - Basketball
  13. Eddie Robinson - Football
  14. Pat Summitt - Basketball
  15. Connie Mack - Baseball
  16. George Halas - Football
  17. Dan Gable - Wrestling
  18. Mike Krzyzewski - Basketball
  19. Casey Stengel - Baseball
  20. Bob Knight - Basketball
  21. Bill Belichick - Football
  22. Amos Alonzo Stagg - Football
  23. Toe Blake - Hockey
  24. Bud Wilkinson - Football
  25. John McGraw - Baseball
  26. Pat Riley - Basketball
  27. Tom Landry - Football
  28. Barry Switzer - Football
  29. Dick Irvin - Hockey
  30. Joe Gibbs - Football
  31. Chuck Noll - Football
  32. Sparky Anderson - Baseball
  33. Alex Ferbuson - Soccer
  34. Woody Hayes - Football
  35. Gregg Popovich - Basketball
  36. Walter Alston - Baseball
  37. Mike Ditka - Football
  38. Al Arbour - Hockey
  39. Bill Walsh - Football
  40. Tom Osborne - Football
  41. Joe McCarthy - Baseball
  42. Bo Schembechler - Football
  43. Tony La Russa - Baseball
  44. Jose Mourinho - Soccer
  45. Geno Auriemma - Basketball
  46. Herb Brooks - Hockey
  47. Lenny Wilkens - Basketball
  48. Bill Bowerman - Track
  49. Bobby Cox - Baseball
  50. John Madden - Football

Midwestern born and raised ... now living in the heat of the Arizona desert

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August 24th, 2012 at 6:58 PM | (No subject) (Score:3 Normal)
OMG Shirtless
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Joined: 08/16/2009
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I put up a tough front, but deep down I just want to be held.

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August 24th, 2012 at 7:00 PM | Did you know... (Score:3 Normal)
EGD
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Joined: 09/16/2009
MGoPoints: 1891

According to the Urban Dictionary, the phrase "smh" (which means "shake my head") is the African-American equivalent of "Facepalm?"

"You will suffer humiliation when the team from my area defeats the team from your area." -- The Onion

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August 24th, 2012 at 7:00 PM | This thread is not long for (Score:2 Normal)
pasadenablue
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Joined: 11/18/2008
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This thread is not long for this world.

This is home...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgijdypJUEQ

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August 24th, 2012 at 7:00 PM | couple things (Score:3 Normal)
wigeon
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Joined: 07/05/2008
MGoPoints: 2747

Bo was better than Woody, imho.

And I don't know what would be appropriate for Coach K, but nice not to see him in top 10.  

Joe McCarthy and John Madden should be higher.  LaRussa, Belichick and Switzer lower.

 

Biz hundert azoi ve tsvantsik

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August 24th, 2012 at 7:04 PM | Bo was not better than Woody (Score:2)
Space Coyote
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Joined: 06/18/2009
MGoPoints: 4381

As much as I like Bo more than Woody, Bo was a Hayes disciple, Hayes had 5 national championships (to Bo's zero). Hayes went out in a pretty bad way, but was much more successful over his total coaching career.

4/23/13 - Denard Robinson's NFL Future, Part II

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August 24th, 2012 at 8:00 PM | I don't have a problem with (Score:4 Normal)
snarling wolverine
Joined: 12/14/2011
MGoPoints: 4704

I don't have a problem with Woody being ranked ahead of Bo, but I wouldn't say he was "much more successful".  Hayes' career record was 205-61-10 (.761).  Bo was 234-65-8 overall (.775) and 194-48-5 (.796) at Michigan.  Woody had the edge in national titles, true, but Bo was very unlucky not to win any, given that he actually had the better overall winning percentage.   

   

 

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August 24th, 2012 at 8:31 PM | See also: Bo's Rose Bowl (Score:0 Trolling)
mackbru
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Joined: 09/01/2009
MGoPoints: 3068

See also: Bo's Rose Bowl record.

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August 24th, 2012 at 10:01 PM | I'm glad I didn't have to be (Score:0 Flamebait)
buckeyejonross
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Joined: 07/27/2010
MGoPoints: 2096

I'm glad I didn't have to be Buzz Killington on that one. Shocked Urban Meyer isn't top 5 though.

 

/troll big or troll home

"So put 2 on, put 10 on, WHAT DO YOU CARE IT'S NOT LIKE YOU'RE PAYIN' FOR 'EM!!!!?"
-Doug Heffernan, in regards to Arthur and his stamp needs

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August 25th, 2012 at 10:03 AM | I'm going to bite on your (Score:2)
DonAZ
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Joined: 12/05/2011
MGoPoints: 665

I'm going to bite on your trolling ...

I think Urban Meyer is very likely on the cusp of joining that list of "greats".  Two things prevent it at this time:

  1. His age -- He's not yet put the years in for people to feel comfortable elevating him to that level, though there is clearly respect for what he's accomplished so far.
  2. The "show me again time" effect -- he won two NCs at Florida with Tebow, then fell somewhat flat post-Tebow.  So some lingering doubts about whether he can recreate such a team again.

If -- heaven forbid :-) -- he takes OSU to a NC in the next two or three years then I think his stock instantly jumps into the "all time greats" range.  If he wins 2 over the next 10 at OSU then for sure.

Midwestern born and raised ... now living in the heat of the Arizona desert

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August 24th, 2012 at 7:13 PM | As much as it sucks to say, (Score:-1 Flamebait)
russale2012
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Joined: 11/30/2011
MGoPoints: 2671

As much as it sucks to say, Bo was not better than Woody, at least not over his total career. Woody has five national titles to Bo's zero.



It's been a lot. Its been a roller coaster that for some reason seemed like it would never get good. But you know what? We kept fighting. It's like that old saying goes, "Those Who Stay Will Be Champions." -David Molk

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August 24th, 2012 at 7:26 PM | You are high. (Score:1)
Roachgoblue
Joined: 08/29/2011
MGoPoints: 1477

Bo played for big ten titles and Woody played for championships. Please get Hoke off the big ten championship train. He is spewing that always, like Bo. I get it, but we need to aim higher. I worship Bo, but he always shot for a lower goal.

[Caved troll is caved. Sorry, Mobile app users.]

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August 25th, 2012 at 8:31 AM | I would put (Score:0 Trolling)
MGoSoftball
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Joined: 10/18/2010
MGoPoints: 3602

Hutch over any soccer coach.

From the Red Cedar Message Board:  "God hates us."  Yes He does Lil Bro, yes he does.  Everyone hates you.

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August 24th, 2012 at 7:04 PM | What Ace Williams is to (Score:5 Normal)
Genzilla
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Joined: 01/26/2009
MGoPoints: 599

What Ace Williams is to Michigan sports reporters Bleacher Report is to sports websites.

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August 24th, 2012 at 7:04 PM | Mike Ditka at 37? (Score:4 Normal)
ShruteBeetFarms
Joined: 09/25/2010
MGoPoints: 1529

With the Ditka jokes aside, he coached all those years and won one super bowl. With that logic, you can put Brian Billick and Jon Gruden at 37 too (which would be still be absurd). I'm not saying Ditka wasn't a good coach, but he is way too high on that list considering the list is about all sports.

"I'm not a vegetarian b/c I love animals. I'm a vegetarian b/c I hate plants"

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August 24th, 2012 at 9:44 PM | agreed (Score:2)
El Tigre
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Joined: 03/14/2011
MGoPoints: 552

Ditka had the greatest running back of all time and didn't give him the ball in goaline situations.  Ditka isn't even top 100 imho.

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August 24th, 2012 at 7:39 PM | Ditka and Lenny Wilkens stand (Score:3 Normal)
m1jjb00
Joined: 11/21/2009
MGoPoints: 1419

Ditka and Lenny Wilkens stand out to me as guys who don't belong on the list anywhere.

I'd have a lot of questions about Switzer as a coach (vs. recruiter, though I'm willing to be convicend otherise).  

Popovich, however, is an inspired choice that I think lots of people (certainly me) wouldn't have thought about.

I'd think Auerbach may be too low.

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August 24th, 2012 at 9:06 PM | No Nick Saban or Adolph Rupp? (Score:3 Normal)
Mr Miggle
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Joined: 10/07/2010
MGoPoints: 1609

I'd add them and move Bobby Knight up. There's also a name that I think would have been on this list a year ago. Where would Paterno rank?

Eating is murder.

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August 24th, 2012 at 10:32 PM | i still think he belongs (Score:2)
masterkaw
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Joined: 10/04/2011
MGoPoints: 236

On the list...I assume it's because he didn't officially win all those games, but come on. We're talking about coach, not humanitarian.

- The Team, The Team, The Team.

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August 24th, 2012 at 7:50 PM | I don't understand Dean Smith (Score:2)
snarling wolverine
Joined: 12/14/2011
MGoPoints: 4704

I don't understand Dean Smith being that high.  He was good and consistent, but I don't see what sets him apart from Bobby Knight and Coach K, who have surpassed him in both wins and national championships - not to mention Adolph Rupp.

Phil Jackson should be higher.  He's won 11 NBA titles in 19 years, which is incredible.  Yeah, he had Jordan and Kobe, but still . . . pretty much every time he had a championship-caliber team, he won it all.  

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August 24th, 2012 at 7:59 PM | Seriously Dean? (Score:1)
Roachgoblue
Joined: 08/29/2011
MGoPoints: 1477

Think about what sets him apart? Popularity!

[Caved troll is caved. Sorry, Mobile app users.]

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August 24th, 2012 at 7:49 PM | Wow, subjective much (Score:0 Flamebait)
eamus_caeruli
Joined: 11/29/2010
MGoPoints: 548

I have a lot of issues with this list. Too many overrated coaches and seriously Mike Ditka? Is it restricted to just men? Summit, fing carol mtfing Hutchins?

"Everybody thinks of changing humanity, but nobody thinks of changing himself."                  - Leo Tolstoy

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August 24th, 2012 at 8:02 PM | You're delusional if you (Score:4 Normal)
Lionsfan
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Joined: 06/03/2011
MGoPoints: 3910

You're delusional if you think a sports site would ever run a softball coach in it's Top 50

If you're doing nothing, how do you know when you're finished?

StraightDave owes me a steak dinner

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August 24th, 2012 at 8:13 PM | Pat Summit is on the list. (Score:1)
Keith
Joined: 03/10/2010
MGoPoints: 184

Number 14.

 

 

I compulsively downvote any usage of "lol".

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August 24th, 2012 at 7:51 PM | Frank Leahy (Score:4 Normal)
thebeachhours
Joined: 04/18/2012
MGoPoints: 17

I know this isn't very popular on MGOblog, but I think Frank Leahy should be included. 

He was 20-2 at Boston College with a Sugar Bowl win.

He was 87-11-9 at Notre Dame with four national championships (43, 46, 47, 49). His winning percentage was .864.

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August 24th, 2012 at 8:06 PM | No Joe Gibbs? Ummm ok (Score:2)
no joke its hoke
no joke its hoke's picture
Joined: 01/13/2011
MGoPoints: 2232

No Joe Gibbs? Ummm ok

Vice.com

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August 24th, 2012 at 8:23 PM | Gibbs is #30. (Score:2)
Mr Miggle
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Joined: 10/07/2010
MGoPoints: 1609

Gibbs is #30.

Eating is murder.

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August 24th, 2012 at 8:56 PM | Dan Gable (Score:1)
Hinklin
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Joined: 07/22/2011
MGoPoints: 23

It's hard to compare sports but Dan Gable's teams won 16 national championshps and 21 straight Big Ten Championships.Historically wrestling is dominated by a few schools, but Iowa never won one before he got there.   I feel foolish commenting on Bleacher Report drek.

Go Blue!

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August 24th, 2012 at 9:01 PM | Interesting List (Score:3 Normal)
LSAClassOf2000
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Joined: 01/07/2011
MGoPoints: 8758

I will say, I think they may have nailed #1 with John Wooden since we're apparently going with all-time and the major sports. There was nothing quite like the Wooden era at UCLA when it came to sustained success (10 championships in 12 years, I think, including one against a Michigan team led by Cazzie Russel in 1965). His overall record as coach, including two years at Indiana state is 664-162, so the man won basically 4 out of 5 games in his career. 

I am actually glad to see Tony LaRussa made this list, for as he trails only Connie Mack and John McGraw in a few categories as a manager, he definitely belongs here. Further, as one of the few managers to win multiple pennants in both leagues as well as a World Series in both leagues, he has had success which will possibly be difficult to replicate in the modern era. 

"Funny isn't it, how naughty dentists always make that one fatal mistake."

Follow the random tweets of a Michigan alum - http://twitter.com/#!/LorneEC3

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August 24th, 2012 at 9:35 PM | For me the biggest "Huh?" (Score:2)
DonAZ
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For me the biggest "Huh?" reactions were:  Dean Smith so high, Ditka on the list at all, and Knute Rockne on and Yost not. 

I have nothing against Smith or Ditka ... it's just their ranking relative to others in a similar category.  In the case of Smith it made me wonder if it was the longevity factor that was in play.  That said, having lived in NC back in the late 1980's ... Smith was a god among men.

My beef against Rockne is that he's part-and-parcel to the whole "Notre Dame mystique" thing.  They got more benefit of the doubt and a higher ranking in general simply for being Notre Dame.  Yes, he won a lot of games, but so too did Yost and others.  Rockne is on that list simply because it was Notre Dame.  Any other school and Rockne would be a footnote.

Midwestern born and raised ... now living in the heat of the Arizona desert

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August 25th, 2012 at 12:17 AM | Another example, Herb Brooks (Score:1 Flamebait)
Lionsfan
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Another example, Herb Brooks being on the list. There's no way he's one of the best 50 coaches in the country, but because of the 1980 Olympics and the need to add in token hockey stuff, he's on the list.

If you're doing nothing, how do you know when you're finished?

StraightDave owes me a steak dinner

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August 25th, 2012 at 9:15 AM | Do you know (Score:2)
Skiptoomylou22
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What he did at Minnesota before that? C'mon man!

Bo' Money Bo' Problems

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August 25th, 2012 at 11:25 AM | I know he won 3 titles there, (Score:1 Flamebait)
Lionsfan
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I know he won 3 titles there, but other than that what does he have? Failed stints at every other coaching gig.

Plus at Minnesota he only had a .624 winning pct. His 7 years there were impressive, but not legendary

If you're doing nothing, how do you know when you're finished?

StraightDave owes me a steak dinner

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August 25th, 2012 at 12:19 AM | Another example, Herb Brooks (Score:1 Redundant)
Lionsfan
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Ack, double post

If you're doing nothing, how do you know when you're finished?

StraightDave owes me a steak dinner

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August 25th, 2012 at 12:23 AM | Pete Newell is an odd choice (Score:2)
snarling wolverine
Joined: 12/14/2011
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Pete Newell is an odd choice as well for this list, let alone top 10.  I know he was known as a great teacher of big men, and ran a famous camp, but as a head coach he wasn't all that remarkable.

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August 25th, 2012 at 12:50 AM | Rockne (Score:0)
bright future
Joined: 01/12/2009
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You don't think maybe  Rockne was that high on this list because he has  the highest winning percentage ever  for an American FBS/ Division 1 college football coach? just a guess.

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August 24th, 2012 at 9:48 PM | good topic (Score:4 Normal)
wigeon
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and not worth negging the OP despite the origin.  

 

Biz hundert azoi ve tsvantsik

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August 25th, 2012 at 5:38 AM | Nm (Score:1 Redundant)
wigeon
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Nm

 

Biz hundert azoi ve tsvantsik

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August 24th, 2012 at 9:57 PM | Chuck Noll has more SB rings (Score:2 Normal)
buckeyejonross
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Chuck Noll has more SB rings than any other head coach and was the primary builder of the greatest professional football dynasty of the modern era, yet there are 9 NFL coaches ahead of him. Bizarre.

"So put 2 on, put 10 on, WHAT DO YOU CARE IT'S NOT LIKE YOU'RE PAYIN' FOR 'EM!!!!?"
-Doug Heffernan, in regards to Arthur and his stamp needs

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August 24th, 2012 at 10:33 PM | Nice to see Bill Bowerman on (Score:1)
MileHighAnnArborite
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Nice to see Bill Bowerman on that list.  Wouldn't have thought they would consider a college track coach, but he is a great addition.

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August 25th, 2012 at 1:09 AM | No Red Berenson?  Or Yost? (Score:1)
VictorsValiant09
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No Red Berenson?  Or Yost?  WTH.

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August 25th, 2012 at 4:39 AM | I believe Wooden and The Bear are the only two (Score:1)
Wolfman
Joined: 07/23/2008
MGoPoints: 503

that will be universally recongized as the greatest in their field. What Wooden done will never come close to being duplicated again. And The Bear happened to be born at a time when he was able to do things that drew respect from those that had come before him and those that followed. He was also a master at keeping in touch with the changes in the game. A year after losing to USC with Sam Bam Cunningham, he told his coaches to start recruiting the greatest players the south had to offer. He was no dummy. On all others people will simply use them for what it should be, bar talk. There is no way in hell that you can have a list that includes Rockne, who was responsible for so many of ND championships by simply being the first to approach the AP and not include Yost who was every bit the coach he was and perhaps the greatest visionary the college game has ever known.

Agree with OP who stated, list will not have a long life span.

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August 25th, 2012 at 8:29 AM | Where's Yost (Score:2)
ChalmersE
Joined: 11/19/2008
MGoPoints: 1069

Fergodsakes! If I remember correctly, among college coaches who coached 25 years or more, he had the highest winning percentage. (I won't even go into why Crisler belongs too.)

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August 25th, 2012 at 8:32 AM | Casey Stengel? (Score:2)
ChalmersE
Joined: 11/19/2008
MGoPoints: 1069

He failed with two teams before the Yankees and was a joke with the Mets afterwards. He was hugely successful with the Yankees, but I suspect a lot of competent managers would ave been successful with the resources at hand.

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August 25th, 2012 at 10:25 AM | ... (Score:2)
slipknot
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Joined: 08/13/2009
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Jimmy Johnson (seriously)

Lou Holtzzzzzz  (not seriously!)

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August 25th, 2012 at 10:37 AM | Way too many... (Score:1)
Trobdcso
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Joined: 08/20/2010
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Basketball guys. Basketball is easy to coach compared to football.

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August 25th, 2012 at 10:50 AM | Dean Smith (Score:1)
jackw8542
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Joined: 10/30/2010
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What Dean Smith accomplished went way beyond just basketball.  Smith is well known for promoting desegregation and for integrating the Tar Heels basketball team, as well as being a force in integrating all ACC schools.  Many of his activities were extremely unpopular in North Carolina but were important to our evolution as a nation and to the complete development of his players.  Personally, I would take him over Wooden, who is widely believed to have stretched the rules a bit with his recruiting, having a great record but having had even greater players.   o  A

In the morning he would read the Bible with another coach. Then, in the afternoon, he would go out and cheat kids who had probably saved up money from mowing lawns to buy those raffle tickets. That's Jim Tressel.

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August 25th, 2012 at 11:59 AM | I know how dumb Bleacher Report is... (Score:0 Flamebait)
justingoblue
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Joined: 11/16/2010
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but seriously, the fifty best coaches of all time were something like 3/5 football coaches, 3/10 basketball coaches and a few random hockey coaches with one wrestling and one track coach thrown in?

This whole exercise is pointless unless someone wants to take the time and look beyond name recognition as a factor for these lists. Even then, it's still completely pointless (Bo being number forty-two or number one changes nothing about his record and career).

Go Blue!

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August 25th, 2012 at 12:40 PM | Don't forget the soccer (or (Score:2)
DonAZ
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Joined: 12/05/2011
MGoPoints: 665

Don't forget the soccer (or "football") coaches! :-)

I recognize the fruitless nature of trying to get consensus on such a list.  There are way too many intangibles that get factored in, intentionally or otherwise.

The list was interesting to me not because I thought it conveyed some kind of revealed truth, but because of what you're getting at -- there's simply no way to put together a list like that in a programmatic, deterministic way.  Which is why the questions I posed were not so much related to the merits of the list, but rather the different opinions about the list.

What intrigues me is how one might go about comparing apples and oranges.  I'm pretty certain coaching and winning at football is a whole kettle of fish different from basketball.  Is winning percentage the only measure of being a coach?  I would think not.  But I can't say exactly why.  I'm sure there are those on this board that might make a good run at that topic, however.

Further, there seems an element of this that gets to the impact a coach had on the life of their players.  Ditka, for example, was ranked that high because (as the article indicated), his coaching style lives on.  They cited Harbaugh as an example.  On that scale then Schembechler definitely rates because story after story tells of how Bo made such a lasting impact on the life of his players.  Ditto Hoke, by the way.  I could be mistaken, but I don't read stories like that about Urban Meyer.

As I blur my eyes and look at that list what I see is a combination of factors -- longevity, winning percentage, celebrity quotient, social impact.  Those are not used in equal measure for each person on the list. 

So the list is no doubt flawed, as any such list will be.  My original thought was having a discussion around some of the broader points I raised here.

 

 

Midwestern born and raised ... now living in the heat of the Arizona desert

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