Discussion: 50 Greatest Coaches All Time
[ed-S: No bleacher report but this is a fun topic and the end of the OT leniency is nigh, so just skip the link and have at the discussion.]
Over at Bleacher Report (link) they have a story on the 50 greatest coaches of all time. Any sport, apparently, since many sports are represented.
<< Honestly, I had no idea BR was so universally reviled. My bad. Apologies. >>
[EDIT] Rumor is there's a list on the interwebs somewhere that has a list of the top 50 coaches of all time. Without considering the source, but rather just musing on the list as if it was randomly created by 50 monkeys and a typewriter, some questions come to mind. [/EDIT]
The list is shown below. Bo Schembechler is #42. Woody Hayes #34. John Wooden is #1.
As I clicked through the slideshow over at the link questions came up in my mind:
Q1 - What sport demands greater coaching skills, and why?
Q2 - How much did name recognition factor into some of these selections? (For example, Knute Rockne is on list but Fielding Yost is not.)
Q3 - How much did longevity factor into the list? (For example, Dean Smith is well above Mike Krzyzewsk.)
Q4 - What names on this list are rated too low? And why?
Q5 - What names rated too high? And why?
Just Friday evening musing in the absence of football that is only 8 days away!!
The list is, from #1 to #50 is:
- John Wooden - Basketball
- Vince Lombardi - Football
- Dean Smith - Basketball
- Bear Bryant - Football
- Scotty Bowman - Hockey
- Don Shula - Football
- Pete Newell - Basketball
- Knute Rockne - Football
- Paul Brown - Football
- Red Auerbach - Basketball
- Morgan Wootten - Basketball
- Phil Jackson - Basketball
- Eddie Robinson - Football
- Pat Summitt - Basketball
- Connie Mack - Baseball
- George Halas - Football
- Dan Gable - Wrestling
- Mike Krzyzewski - Basketball
- Casey Stengel - Baseball
- Bob Knight - Basketball
- Bill Belichick - Football
- Amos Alonzo Stagg - Football
- Toe Blake - Hockey
- Bud Wilkinson - Football
- John McGraw - Baseball
- Pat Riley - Basketball
- Tom Landry - Football
- Barry Switzer - Football
- Dick Irvin - Hockey
- Joe Gibbs - Football
- Chuck Noll - Football
- Sparky Anderson - Baseball
- Alex Ferbuson - Soccer
- Woody Hayes - Football
- Gregg Popovich - Basketball
- Walter Alston - Baseball
- Mike Ditka - Football
- Al Arbour - Hockey
- Bill Walsh - Football
- Tom Osborne - Football
- Joe McCarthy - Baseball
- Bo Schembechler - Football
- Tony La Russa - Baseball
- Jose Mourinho - Soccer
- Geno Auriemma - Basketball
- Herb Brooks - Hockey
- Lenny Wilkens - Basketball
- Bill Bowerman - Track
- Bobby Cox - Baseball
- John Madden - Football
August 24th, 2012 at 7:00 PM ^
According to the Urban Dictionary, the phrase "smh" (which means "shake my head") is the African-American equivalent of "Facepalm?"
August 24th, 2012 at 7:00 PM ^
This thread is not long for this world.
August 24th, 2012 at 7:00 PM ^
Bo was better than Woody, imho.
And I don't know what would be appropriate for Coach K, but nice not to see him in top 10.
Joe McCarthy and John Madden should be higher. LaRussa, Belichick and Switzer lower.
August 24th, 2012 at 7:04 PM ^
As much as I like Bo more than Woody, Bo was a Hayes disciple, Hayes had 5 national championships (to Bo's zero). Hayes went out in a pretty bad way, but was much more successful over his total coaching career.
August 24th, 2012 at 8:00 PM ^
I don't have a problem with Woody being ranked ahead of Bo, but I wouldn't say he was "much more successful". Hayes' career record was 205-61-10 (.761). Bo was 234-65-8 overall (.775) and 194-48-5 (.796) at Michigan. Woody had the edge in national titles, true, but Bo was very unlucky not to win any, given that he actually had the better overall winning percentage.
August 24th, 2012 at 8:31 PM ^
August 24th, 2012 at 10:01 PM ^
I'm glad I didn't have to be Buzz Killington on that one. Shocked Urban Meyer isn't top 5 though.
/troll big or troll home
August 25th, 2012 at 10:03 AM ^
I'm going to bite on your trolling ...
I think Urban Meyer is very likely on the cusp of joining that list of "greats". Two things prevent it at this time:
- His age -- He's not yet put the years in for people to feel comfortable elevating him to that level, though there is clearly respect for what he's accomplished so far.
- The "show me again time" effect -- he won two NCs at Florida with Tebow, then fell somewhat flat post-Tebow. So some lingering doubts about whether he can recreate such a team again.
If -- heaven forbid :-) -- he takes OSU to a NC in the next two or three years then I think his stock instantly jumps into the "all time greats" range. If he wins 2 over the next 10 at OSU then for sure.
August 24th, 2012 at 7:13 PM ^
August 24th, 2012 at 7:26 PM ^
August 25th, 2012 at 8:31 AM ^
Hutch over any soccer coach.
August 24th, 2012 at 7:04 PM ^
What Ace Williams is to Michigan sports reporters Bleacher Report is to sports websites.
August 24th, 2012 at 7:04 PM ^
With the Ditka jokes aside, he coached all those years and won one super bowl. With that logic, you can put Brian Billick and Jon Gruden at 37 too (which would be still be absurd). I'm not saying Ditka wasn't a good coach, but he is way too high on that list considering the list is about all sports.
August 24th, 2012 at 9:44 PM ^
Ditka had the greatest running back of all time and didn't give him the ball in goaline situations. Ditka isn't even top 100 imho.
August 24th, 2012 at 7:39 PM ^
Ditka and Lenny Wilkens stand out to me as guys who don't belong on the list anywhere.
I'd have a lot of questions about Switzer as a coach (vs. recruiter, though I'm willing to be convicend otherise).
Popovich, however, is an inspired choice that I think lots of people (certainly me) wouldn't have thought about.
I'd think Auerbach may be too low.
August 24th, 2012 at 9:06 PM ^
I'd add them and move Bobby Knight up. There's also a name that I think would have been on this list a year ago. Where would Paterno rank?
August 24th, 2012 at 10:32 PM ^
August 24th, 2012 at 7:50 PM ^
I don't understand Dean Smith being that high. He was good and consistent, but I don't see what sets him apart from Bobby Knight and Coach K, who have surpassed him in both wins and national championships - not to mention Adolph Rupp.
Phil Jackson should be higher. He's won 11 NBA titles in 19 years, which is incredible. Yeah, he had Jordan and Kobe, but still . . . pretty much every time he had a championship-caliber team, he won it all.
August 24th, 2012 at 7:59 PM ^
August 24th, 2012 at 7:49 PM ^
August 24th, 2012 at 8:02 PM ^
You're delusional if you think a sports site would ever run a softball coach in it's Top 50
August 24th, 2012 at 8:13 PM ^
Number 14.
August 24th, 2012 at 7:51 PM ^
I know this isn't very popular on MGOblog, but I think Frank Leahy should be included.
He was 20-2 at Boston College with a Sugar Bowl win.
He was 87-11-9 at Notre Dame with four national championships (43, 46, 47, 49). His winning percentage was .864.
August 24th, 2012 at 8:06 PM ^
No Joe Gibbs? Ummm ok
August 24th, 2012 at 8:23 PM ^
Gibbs is #30.
August 24th, 2012 at 8:56 PM ^
It's hard to compare sports but Dan Gable's teams won 16 national championshps and 21 straight Big Ten Championships.Historically wrestling is dominated by a few schools, but Iowa never won one before he got there. I feel foolish commenting on Bleacher Report drek.
August 24th, 2012 at 9:01 PM ^
I will say, I think they may have nailed #1 with John Wooden since we're apparently going with all-time and the major sports. There was nothing quite like the Wooden era at UCLA when it came to sustained success (10 championships in 12 years, I think, including one against a Michigan team led by Cazzie Russel in 1965). His overall record as coach, including two years at Indiana state is 664-162, so the man won basically 4 out of 5 games in his career.
I am actually glad to see Tony LaRussa made this list, for as he trails only Connie Mack and John McGraw in a few categories as a manager, he definitely belongs here. Further, as one of the few managers to win multiple pennants in both leagues as well as a World Series in both leagues, he has had success which will possibly be difficult to replicate in the modern era.
August 24th, 2012 at 9:35 PM ^
For me the biggest "Huh?" reactions were: Dean Smith so high, Ditka on the list at all, and Knute Rockne on and Yost not.
I have nothing against Smith or Ditka ... it's just their ranking relative to others in a similar category. In the case of Smith it made me wonder if it was the longevity factor that was in play. That said, having lived in NC back in the late 1980's ... Smith was a god among men.
My beef against Rockne is that he's part-and-parcel to the whole "Notre Dame mystique" thing. They got more benefit of the doubt and a higher ranking in general simply for being Notre Dame. Yes, he won a lot of games, but so too did Yost and others. Rockne is on that list simply because it was Notre Dame. Any other school and Rockne would be a footnote.
August 25th, 2012 at 12:17 AM ^
August 25th, 2012 at 9:15 AM ^
August 25th, 2012 at 11:25 AM ^
I know he won 3 titles there, but other than that what does he have? Failed stints at every other coaching gig.
Plus at Minnesota he only had a .624 winning pct. His 7 years there were impressive, but not legendary
August 25th, 2012 at 12:19 AM ^
August 25th, 2012 at 12:23 AM ^
Pete Newell is an odd choice as well for this list, let alone top 10. I know he was known as a great teacher of big men, and ran a famous camp, but as a head coach he wasn't all that remarkable.
August 25th, 2012 at 12:50 AM ^
You don't think maybe Rockne was that high on this list because he has the highest winning percentage ever for an American FBS/ Division 1 college football coach? just a guess.
August 24th, 2012 at 9:48 PM ^
and not worth negging the OP despite the origin.
August 24th, 2012 at 9:57 PM ^
Chuck Noll has more SB rings than any other head coach and was the primary builder of the greatest professional football dynasty of the modern era, yet there are 9 NFL coaches ahead of him. Bizarre.
August 24th, 2012 at 10:33 PM ^
Nice to see Bill Bowerman on that list. Wouldn't have thought they would consider a college track coach, but he is a great addition.
August 25th, 2012 at 1:09 AM ^
No Red Berenson? Or Yost? WTH.
August 25th, 2012 at 4:39 AM ^
that will be universally recongized as the greatest in their field. What Wooden done will never come close to being duplicated again. And The Bear happened to be born at a time when he was able to do things that drew respect from those that had come before him and those that followed. He was also a master at keeping in touch with the changes in the game. A year after losing to USC with Sam Bam Cunningham, he told his coaches to start recruiting the greatest players the south had to offer. He was no dummy. On all others people will simply use them for what it should be, bar talk. There is no way in hell that you can have a list that includes Rockne, who was responsible for so many of ND championships by simply being the first to approach the AP and not include Yost who was every bit the coach he was and perhaps the greatest visionary the college game has ever known.
Agree with OP who stated, list will not have a long life span.
August 25th, 2012 at 8:29 AM ^
August 25th, 2012 at 8:32 AM ^
August 25th, 2012 at 10:25 AM ^
Jimmy Johnson (seriously)
Lou Holtzzzzzz (not seriously!)
August 25th, 2012 at 10:37 AM ^
August 25th, 2012 at 10:50 AM ^
What Dean Smith accomplished went way beyond just basketball. Smith is well known for promoting desegregation and for integrating the Tar Heels basketball team, as well as being a force in integrating all ACC schools. Many of his activities were extremely unpopular in North Carolina but were important to our evolution as a nation and to the complete development of his players. Personally, I would take him over Wooden, who is widely believed to have stretched the rules a bit with his recruiting, having a great record but having had even greater players.
August 25th, 2012 at 11:59 AM ^
but seriously, the fifty best coaches of all time were something like 3/5 football coaches, 3/10 basketball coaches and a few random hockey coaches with one wrestling and one track coach thrown in?
This whole exercise is pointless unless someone wants to take the time and look beyond name recognition as a factor for these lists. Even then, it's still completely pointless (Bo being number forty-two or number one changes nothing about his record and career).
August 25th, 2012 at 12:40 PM ^
Don't forget the soccer (or "football") coaches! :-)
I recognize the fruitless nature of trying to get consensus on such a list. There are way too many intangibles that get factored in, intentionally or otherwise.
The list was interesting to me not because I thought it conveyed some kind of revealed truth, but because of what you're getting at -- there's simply no way to put together a list like that in a programmatic, deterministic way. Which is why the questions I posed were not so much related to the merits of the list, but rather the different opinions about the list.
What intrigues me is how one might go about comparing apples and oranges. I'm pretty certain coaching and winning at football is a whole kettle of fish different from basketball. Is winning percentage the only measure of being a coach? I would think not. But I can't say exactly why. I'm sure there are those on this board that might make a good run at that topic, however.
Further, there seems an element of this that gets to the impact a coach had on the life of their players. Ditka, for example, was ranked that high because (as the article indicated), his coaching style lives on. They cited Harbaugh as an example. On that scale then Schembechler definitely rates because story after story tells of how Bo made such a lasting impact on the life of his players. Ditto Hoke, by the way. I could be mistaken, but I don't read stories like that about Urban Meyer.
As I blur my eyes and look at that list what I see is a combination of factors -- longevity, winning percentage, celebrity quotient, social impact. Those are not used in equal measure for each person on the list.
So the list is no doubt flawed, as any such list will be. My original thought was having a discussion around some of the broader points I raised here.