Chip Kelly advocates for single conference and revenue sharing
I think Coach Harbaugh’s message is gaining traction. From a news conference yesterday, Chip Kelly said:
And in what was perhaps the staunchest point of his answer, Kelly also called for revenue sharing between schools and players which, in his mind, would alleviate a lot of the murkiness that name, image and likeness has brought to the sport in recent years.
"The players should get paid and you can get rid of [NIL] and the schools should be paying the players because the players are what the product is," Kelly said. "And the fact that they don't get paid is, really, the biggest travesty."
He’s advocating for a single Power 5 conference, splitting football from everything else. Not sure how this could work with Title IX and why not just call it what it is, a minor league for the NFL?
December 17th, 2023 at 8:32 AM ^
This is not even a bold take at this point. It’s inevitable.
December 17th, 2023 at 8:37 AM ^
Agreed. It's just a question of mechanics. The usual "not a lawyer" stuff, but can you call the players employees, make something separate, and pay them outside of Title IX? I don't think revenue sharing would eliminate NIL, so this wouldn't solve the issues that Kelly is worried about. And how long before basketball follows suit?
December 17th, 2023 at 8:43 AM ^
with the proviso that labor law is not my specialty and it can be pretty intricate, if you do call the players 'employees' it would seem that you almost certainly get the issue out from under the Title IX restrictions.
however, you also open up a few other cans of worms, not the least of which is when you take the cash cow of football (for many programs) out of the athletic budget, how do you pay for wrestling, volleyball, field hockey, etc? many of the fancy new facilities that have been built for those types of sports have been paid for on the back of the football teams. so do those non-revenue sports slide back, even some to club status?
December 17th, 2023 at 8:59 AM ^
I'd assume that any money made by that outside entity still comes into the university and then could fund the other non-revenue sports... or not... This seems like an end-around Title IX and I don't think it would fly.
December 17th, 2023 at 9:53 AM ^
I hear you, and understand where you coming from, but recategorization of people as employees is a true difference, and a distinction, not just a magicians trick.
December 17th, 2023 at 12:12 PM ^
Except there is now significantly less money. In Chip’s model you are also now sharing that revenue among schools, so a school like Michigan is going to get less money in this model. It is important to note many D1 football programs do not make money.
This is not a bad idea, but it is WAY more complicated than anyone really understands. It is not as simple as just do what the pros do. The finances of the schools and other sports are very intertwined, it is going to be very hard to break them out to understand what revenue should be shared with players. And if you do it for football, than you have to do basketball. What about hockey and other sports at other schools that make revenue? It all gets real complicated really quick.
December 17th, 2023 at 12:39 PM ^
I’d argue it would be the other way around. The football program would be a professional program owned by the schools not a “varsity” program because that implies both a level of amateurism and access to the regular student body via tryouts, etc.
A professional program would be just that, without any explicit requirement to be a student nor any requirement to have open tryouts for walk-ons. No scholarship limits because no scholarships and everyone would be a recruit. You are admitted to the football team.
I don’t like this but I’d prefer it to misrepresenting football like it is just another varsity sport. Paying players and enabling free agency makes it a professional sport. If anything it is the non-revenue sports that most closely capture the varsity ideal.
Once players are paid it takes away many of the charms and trappings of amateurism like playing for your school and winning varsity letters. If this is what players and fans want, so be it. Let’s not use euphemisms to refer to it nostalgically as something that it is not.
December 17th, 2023 at 1:23 PM ^
you know, for a guy whose hiding in a tunnel you sure make a lot of sense. seriously, where are the guard rails that would prevent exactly what you are saying? sure seems like a natural progression.
i guess you'd have to start rooting for your favorite FCS/D-II/III teams?
December 17th, 2023 at 1:41 PM ^
I’m actually more like Oscar the Grouch. I hide in your trash can!
I think that if we are being honest with ourselves this is exactly how things need to proceed. The current approach is an absolute sham. I don’t like the way things have gone but that ship has sailed. I am much more concerned now about protecting the interests of true amateurs that have to gain admission, pay tuition, and tryout to make a sports team. I’m really against continuing to treat professionals as anything but what they are or what their motivations are. This is why I would separate treat admissions separately from being admitted to the football team. You are welcome to try out for school just like any other applicant but it is not required nor are football applicants given favorable treatment in admissions as I assume walk-on football applicants wouldn’t be given favorable treatment to make the team. Also, football team members would not be eligible to win awards or recognition reserved for amateurs or students unless they held both statuses. So no more varsity letters, academic big ten, etc. It’s only fair because amateur student-athletes don’t get paid and are truly committed to academics in addition to their sport. It’s the same way I feel about the NBA and the Olympics. Having ringers play and win awards/recognition intended for amateurs is not fair. If it’s the NFL’s minor league let them sponsor awards and recognition.
December 17th, 2023 at 2:25 PM ^
If football players are employees, then they won't be students. There are laws against restraint of trade, and requiring a professional football player to have to get the SAT scores, grade, etc for admission is restraint of trade. The analogy to teaching and research assistants doesn't work; their continuing education very neatly ties into their job qualifications. No court would buy an argument that a linebacker must know calculus to do his job.
The bigger problem in my eyes is that universities are restricted from engaging in commercial activity. They are restricted to activities that support their educational and research missions. They can run eateries, for example, but only to service their students and employees. They can't open a commercial eatery. Running a pro sports team does not serve the educational or research missions, so the pro teams, it seems to me, would need to be spun off as separate entities.
I can't see those pro teams succeeding in the long term. The reason why college football is popular is because it is college football. People watch it because of the schools, not because of any specific players I don't see an inferior version of the NFL successfully competing with the NFL. The spin-offs would eventually become farm teams for the NFL or die out altogether.
Ironically, that would leave a market for college football wide open.
December 18th, 2023 at 3:35 PM ^
Grumbler, you said it. There's lots of talk about how it's the players who generate the interest and value of cfb. At least for me, the players themselves are secondary, almost tangential to why I care about Michigan Football.
I've never been to a minor league baseball game, a G-League hoops game or even a non-NFL pro football game.
I love and much prefer cfb BECAUSE of the direct link to my university, and because they are students. I love Michigan football, not whichever team Erick All plays for. (not throwing stones at him, just an example).
I personally don't care one way or another whether college athletes get paid - but I don't buy the argument that players - h.s. kids who otherwise would be completely unknown without the huge stage and exposure enabled by playing for a school like Michigan - drive most of cfb revenue.
I loved Michigan football before Blake Corum was born, and his brief tenure - while greatly enjoyed and appreciated - will be just a tiny few pixels of my overall picture of Michigan football.
So, if cfb becomes minor league professional football, I won't care about it at all. Yes, I realize we're already getting close to that now - but I hold on because of what remains - scholarships, student-athletes, direct connection to school, conference affiliation, etc. I suspect I'm not alone.
December 18th, 2023 at 4:47 PM ^
Well said and exactly why I don’t like the way things have gone. I watch Michigan football because I have a connection to the school as a fan and as alum. If it’s just people using the brand but not connected in any other way to Michigan I would not bother following it. The more professionalized it becomes the less interested I am in supporting it attention-wise or financially.
December 17th, 2023 at 5:57 PM ^
Pay them too. Athletes become professionals out of high school in baseball and hockey and still go to college and compete at a high level. Football can still chase the most money and then utilize the financial support and assets to pay and train the athletes at a market appropriate level.
December 17th, 2023 at 9:10 AM ^
His "getting rid of NIL" take is almost certainly illegal. But his university employee pay structure seems like a step forward in my opinion.
Regarding NIL, you can't get rid of a player working with advertisers. I am not sure that is exactly what Kelly meant though. He was possibly saying "get rid of" and really meant "not have it be the only method" or something like that.
December 17th, 2023 at 9:33 AM ^
It sounds like wishful thinking on his part. "If schools pay players, I won't have to deal with this NIL nonsense."
The NIL genie is out of the bottle. Any revenue sharing with players is just going to supplement NIL, not replace it.
December 17th, 2023 at 10:12 AM ^
The difference might be that you let players have side gigs just like other students do but a coach/coaches don't spend their lives setting up lucrative, sometimes smarmy deals, all their time wooing boosters/employers. Very time consuming, very soul-destroying, in my view.
December 17th, 2023 at 10:55 AM ^
I think it’s more of get rid of it as a way for pay to play. These guys are getting paid so they are professional athletes. They can also do commercials and other things to make even more money. Just no need to call it NIL
December 17th, 2023 at 10:55 AM ^
It would take federal legislation for specific antitrust/labor/title 9 carve-outs.
I worry competent federal legislation is impossible atm
December 17th, 2023 at 11:45 AM ^
I believe one of the bigger issues which goes beyond mechanics is why would the couple of handfuls of schools with large fanbases want to get into an arrangement with the vast majority of schools who are takers and not givers, i.e., in the B1G, Michigan, OSU and to some extent PSU pay the bills for the rest of the conference.
I think Kelly's idea makes sense but not as a single conference unless the conference has divisions with some degree of autonomy as to revenue sharing where compensation is a function of viewership value. Otherwise, it makes no sense and the large-fanbase teams will not go along with the idea.
Not a great time for the B1G to have crapped upon Michigan.
December 17th, 2023 at 12:02 PM ^
So...you're not a fan of Socialism I take it...lol.
December 17th, 2023 at 3:13 PM ^
Correct!
What's the point of having 1 big conference, when you will need pay the smaller schools for participating. Isn't that what we already have with the Big 10, SEC, ACC, etc....? The lower schools for the most part are currently a "break" between playing the tough teams.
Destiny is saying that the smaller schools are eventually going by the wayside.
I believe that it will be the biggest 5 schools from each of the large conferences to form their own conference which will generate mega $$$$ for each of them.
Unfortunately, the smaller schools will eventually close shop.
December 17th, 2023 at 10:01 AM ^
Is it though?
How do you get rid of NIL? The NFL allows players to earn from their likeness. But there are other measures in place in an attempt to strive for "competitive balance." The biggest one? The NFL Draft.
Are you going to say, "we'll pay you a salary and you'll join a union/player's association and you can't earn additional income?"
What union or lawyer in the world is going to agree to that after the precedent we've already set?
In additon to the draft, there is also a HUGE difference between the NFL model and the college model.
Even if you set-up salary caps and revenue sharing and all of that stuff...college still has RECRUITING. And if you have recruiting, you have inducements.
Revenue sharing doesn't solve what Kelly and the like think it solves. It's just an attempt at legal bribery ("we are giving you some money, so STFU and play nice")...and it's the RIGHT thing to do in a billion dollar industry. They should get a cut.
For the guys who don't get NIL? They'll love it. But Williams at USC, Daniels at LSU, Nix, Penix, McCarthy, Harrison Jr., etc. - they're all worth MUCH more than whatever this new organization is going to pay them...especially on an open market when there is recruiting and not a draft.
The only way this works is if you have a draft for the talent...and think about that for 2 seconds before you never think about it again. Obviously I don't have to explain why they will never happen in college.
If the NFL made every player a free agent tomorrow. Even with an equal salary cap...which teams would field the most talented teams?
LA, Dallas, NY, Chicago, and the states with no state income tax...why? Because they are bigger markets, with more media exposure, and better opportunities to earn additional income.
And every year when college players entered the FA pool instead of being drafted...where would they go? To the highest bidder with the most opportunity for additional income.
NIL and recruiting don't mix. NIL isn't going away, ever. And recruiting isn't going away, ever. And now you're also recruiting for the transfer portal...which makes things even more unbalanced.
It's never going to be "fair" - the best you can do is reduce the number of teams so that you have the same amount of talent/labor spread amongst fewer schools. After that it's about coaching and development.
December 17th, 2023 at 8:44 AM ^
UCLA gonna get hamblasted. The NCAA won't tolerate this kind of uppity behavior.
December 17th, 2023 at 9:02 AM ^
The PAC-2 is going to ban the face of UCLA football. I hope nobody eats cheeseburgers near the UCLA campus...
December 17th, 2023 at 8:49 AM ^
Not sure why a conference like the Big Ten which gets the ratings and TV contracts would want to share revenue with schools/conferences that do not generate the same level of interest/eyeballs. Or, if he is viewing the issue more broadly, why a school like Michigan/OSU/PSU that sells out a huge stadium would want to share those revenues with a Miami that draws poorly? And why should Michigan etc fans subsidize Miami’s football? Also, if we do go to one big conference, does that mean SC and Washington and Oregon go back to playing in the West Division, and all is as it once was? These are certainly suggestions worth considering and discussing, but lots of questions to be resolved to do it fairly.
December 17th, 2023 at 8:54 AM ^
Why do we subsidize Northwestern and MSU? The only time their stadiums fill up is when UM or OSU fans buy the tix. I would think a super conference could select for such criteria as well. Of course, that might not help UCLA's case, from what I've seen of their games in the Rose Bowl.
December 17th, 2023 at 2:57 PM ^
...and this is how college football as we know it ends.
Michigan and other high-revenue generating schools will be in a quasi-professional league/conference that pays players and has some kind of draft/free agency system. It will have a couple of B1G teams with a few from the SEC, Notre Dame, etc.
The rest of the B1G (a.k.a. "the leeches") will have something more like D3 football. (There will be rules about advance scouting that will be strictly enforced, however).
December 17th, 2023 at 8:54 AM ^
Revenue sharing...with the players
December 17th, 2023 at 9:18 AM ^
It's not a big ten thing, it's a rich people can get paid a bunch of money for not contributing anything to society thing. They'll be the ones that get this to happen.
December 17th, 2023 at 8:51 AM ^
I heard him say he loved his players during the on-field interview after their win last night and thought “sounds like something Harbaugh would say”
Apparently Chip has been paying attention after all. Nice work! Spread the love, my people.
December 17th, 2023 at 8:58 AM ^
I’ve been an advocate for the single conference as well. We’re to the point where the conferences are too big and, without divisions, it’s going to be impossible to determine a conference champion. For example, the Big Ten is now at 18 teams with a 9 game conference schedule, meaning in any given year you do not play 8 of the teams within your conference.
I’ve thought for a while now you should get rid of conferences in football altogether, and let everyone play whoever they want. You get 1-2 games you’re allowed to schedule against G5 programs and you HAVE to schedule 10-11 against P5 schools.
strenghth of schedule matters, 8 or 16 team playoff.
December 17th, 2023 at 11:22 AM ^
I have no idea how one conference of 65+ schools is supposed to function. And I can't imagine why Michigan, OSU, Bama, Texas, etc. would agree to share revenue equally with schools outside of their conference that can't generate much revenue on their own. How would that not cost Big Ten and SEC schools a lot of money? Are TV networks also going to be required to treat all the schools equally in regard to their programming?
I think there are very good reasons that football and other sports are divided into conferences. And equally good reasons that doing away with conferences will never fly, nor should it. If we do see a single super conference for football, most of the current Power 5 schools will be left out, most likely including UCLA.
Money is going to be the overriding factor in any further realignment. If a plan doesn't make financial sense for schools, they aren't going to go along with it.
December 17th, 2023 at 12:23 PM ^
There’s really no difference in how it operates than how it does currently, except everyone is independent. Schedule whoever you want within the new subdivision.
Do Michigan, OSU, Bama and Texas not already share revenue with schools that cannot generate much on their own within their conference? What’s the difference in sharing outside the conference? This really only impacts TV money, as bowl payouts to conferences could then go directly to the school instead of the conference. Major schools would be able to sign their own TV contracts as well, instead of being tied to the conference.
Or, since conferences would still exist in other sports, Fox would still own rights to Michigan home games and the payouts don’t change. Nobody makes more or less money.
December 17th, 2023 at 1:26 PM ^
How is letting schools completely determine their own schedules going to work? One school with money is going to schedule 10 home games and others that can afford to will follow suit. Or are we going to be making rules for these independent schools?
Who's going to want to schedule a home and home with some of these schools if they have a wide choice? Take Wake Forest, for example. If they don't draw well, why play them? They aren't guaranteed wins, nor are they likely to help your SOS. They are going to end up playing a couple of local schools and other teams no one wants to schedule. What would very likely happen is that TV networks would start dictating scheduling to a much greater extent than they can do now.
Kelly has some vague idea of regional divisions and scheduling a rotating specific region along with your own each year. It really just sounds like he doesn't want to be part of the Big Ten, I can understand that, but his solution sounds poorly thought out at best. Why not just advocate for all the PAC-12 teams to come back home? It's at least as realistic.
As for revenue sharing, schools like Michigan are very likely to push for a greater share of the TV money in the next round of contracts. Florida State and Clemson already have been. Why did Texas join the SEC? Because their equal share of SEC revenues is a lot bigger than it was in the Big 12. Same with USC and UCLA. And TV revenue is where the big money is. The Big Ten is getting over $1B a year. Why would their schools agree to share equally with conferences getting far less? There's no way they would.
Major schools having their own TV contracts would likely follow and that's basically the opposite of what Kelly is advocating for. It would give the biggest names a tremendous advantage in recruiting and the portal due to the revenue they would share with the players, a far greater advantage than they have now.
December 17th, 2023 at 1:45 PM ^
Same way it works for ND. Do they not schedule road games? There’s also an NCAA rule requiring at least 5 home games, nobody is going to be able to schedule all home games and have it work out.
I mentioned the rule being put in place where you’re only allowed 1-2 games against G5 schools, so “scheduling local teams” isn’t going to work either unless those local schools are considered part of the Power conference. I also mentioned making strength of schedule matter. This line of scheduling simply isn’t going to benefit you.
The Big Ten is getting over $1B a year. Why would their schools agree to share equally with conferences getting far less? There's no way they would
I don’t know where you feel that would be the case. Either you remain tied to your conferences TV contract, and thus you’re not sharing with anyone you’re not already sharing with. Nothing changes financially except you no longer have a conference schedule dictated by the Big Ten. Or Power football receives its own TV deal and the major schools are allowed to negotiate their own deals (like ND).
I’m not advocating for some semblance of equality or whatever Kelly is talking about. I’m looking at what makes sense. Determining a conference champion without divisions in an 18+ team conference makes no sense. Forcing non-revenue sports to participate in cross-country conferences for the sake of football makes no sense. USC can join the power football conference and not have to send its volleyball team 12 hours to play an hour and a half game a half dozen times a year. Keep the SEC, Big Ten, etc for everything else and just make everyone in this theoretical power division an independent for football.
December 17th, 2023 at 9:20 AM ^
this is a good idea. one big single group of teams - lets call it a division and it can be broken into, lets say 5 conferences in which teams most of their games against each other.
December 17th, 2023 at 9:35 AM ^
Current university pay scales:
- Football coach >>> President ≥ Provost/Vice Provosts > Deans >>>>>>>>>> Faculty
Future university pay scales:
- Football coach >>> QB >>> President ≥ Provost/Vice Provosts > Deans >>>>>>>>>> Faculty
I'm sure I forgot some positions along the way...
/s (Partly. I'm a proponent of paying players.)
December 17th, 2023 at 9:45 AM ^
Tony Petitti is on line 1 Chip. He would like to speak with you about the impacts money will have on player safety and his house in the Hamptons.
December 17th, 2023 at 10:05 AM ^
Somebody get a PI to look into this guy.
December 17th, 2023 at 10:23 AM ^
In addition to the legal stickiness of Title IX, I think the hurdle here is convincing schools that they need to pay the revenue earners with the revenue, instead of using the revenue earners as the financial engine to fund the rest of their athletic department.
i heard a discussion on the radio the other day that seemed to completely overlook that particular aspect of the financial situation at play here. "there's all this money! The conference TV deals are worth hundreds of millions per year!" Yes, that's true, and yet, of 133 D1 schools, (last I checked) less than 1/3 of them have athletic departments that break even on the financial ledger. There are 60some P5 schools, and only ~30 of them break even or turn a profit.
good luck convincing administrators to pay players when they're operating on such slim margins.
(tbc - i think players should be compensated financially)
December 17th, 2023 at 10:29 AM ^
I don't want to share monies with Sparty.
December 17th, 2023 at 10:47 AM ^
Kelly, like Harbaugh, is one of those guys who probably does not make friends easily in coaching circles, especially when they have viewpoints like this.
And like Harbaugh, he strikes me as a guy who truly doesn’t care what anyone else thinks.
Kelly also made a comment a few months back that I was whole-heartedly in agreement with. Make football only conferences that align however the hell you want them to, but for all the non revenue sports, leave the conferences as they are. It makes zero sense to drag soccer, volleyball and T&F along for this ride too.
December 17th, 2023 at 3:29 PM ^
Agreed, CFB really should just be split off into the professional league it functionally is.
But is it possible to legally (under Title IX, etc) make that break? Soccer, volleyball, and every other non-revenue sport NEEDS football to drag them along or else they're all going to look like club teams doing weekly bake sales to try and raise money to keep their programs going.
December 17th, 2023 at 11:03 AM ^
Make sure you don't buy recruits any burgers after this comment, Chip
December 17th, 2023 at 11:05 AM ^
"The players should get paid and you can get rid of [NIL]"
Why would paying players get rid of NIL? Professionals are allowed to get endorsement deals. The best ones will probably still make more from NIL than whatever the schools would end up paying, especially if Title IX is still involved.
Also, a single P5 conference just sounds like a league more than a conference.
December 17th, 2023 at 11:16 AM ^
That cat is out of the bag (hey, who put the cat in the bag?!). Everybody from here on out knows that we all at least own our names, images and likenesses.
December 17th, 2023 at 4:07 PM ^
(hey, who put the cat in the bag?!)
The guy trying to sell a pig in a poke,
December 17th, 2023 at 12:10 PM ^
Huh? When's Signing Day?
December 17th, 2023 at 12:37 PM ^
I don't think I understand his point about a single Power 5 conference and a single Group of 5 conference. Who makes the schedule (his comments about sponsorships for a single game are the murkiest)? How does the National Championship playoff work? Does the best G5 team get a slot?
December 17th, 2023 at 12:45 PM ^
There won't be a single conference. It'll never end up evolving beyond a yearly North v South cfb civil war