After seeing late Dantonio, I have more appreciation for Lloyd
You can say plenty about the late Lloyd years, but after seeing Dantonio fall off so dramatically, I do want to shout out a couple of positives. Lloyd was obviously more willing to make some of the rough decisions than Mork, including letting Herrman go, make changes at OC (that obviously didn’t go far enough but they made changes), and his recruiting obviously didn’t fall out like State’s has.
November 18th, 2019 at 10:03 PM ^
If Ferentz had come, I’d assume we’d throw 5 yard outs on 3rd and 8.
November 18th, 2019 at 7:05 PM ^
Well, I will agree that Dantonio is doing impressive damage to MSU recruiting by refusing to leave or make substantial changes, but Lloyd - IMHO - left some talent on the roster. It was how all that was handled in transition that created problems.
November 18th, 2019 at 8:00 PM ^
Lloyd Carr left that team with plenty of talent on it. The talent was best suited for his offensive and defensive philosophies, though. One could argue that Lloyd could've been more supportive with the transition, but the failings of 2008 fall squarely on the wholesale changes in philosophy on both sides of the ball.
November 18th, 2019 at 6:37 PM ^
You're talking about two vastly different people, coaches, and situations. I'm not going to disagree with you BUT, Dantonio hasn't left YET, and one could argue that Lloyd was somewhat responsible for the RichRod and Hoke years that threw us into a deep depression for so many years.
November 18th, 2019 at 6:38 PM ^
Tons more talent to work with though
November 18th, 2019 at 6:39 PM ^
The irony is that unlike Lloyd Dantonio had his heir apparent on staff in “Nardawg” but held on too long so he left for a job thats made him look worse than Dave Wannstedt
November 18th, 2019 at 7:05 PM ^
Michigan State program has a higher variance and its shown though I don't think they are nearly as bad as their record this year.
November 18th, 2019 at 7:39 PM ^
This is probably about right actually
3-9 was a littllleee too hilarious, but you can bet your ass the days of double digit win seasons for Sparty is over
November 18th, 2019 at 7:17 PM ^
It took a hell of a lot more mismanagement, dereliction of duty, and arrogance to fuck up Michigan’s program. MSU does not have a safety net. We decided not to put ours up and do a belly flop.
November 18th, 2019 at 7:43 PM ^
Lloyd Carr never hired a single outside coordinator on either side of the ball in his entire tenure as head coach. Dantonio has nudged a couple OCs out of that chair and, like Lloyd, always promoted someone else from within whose philosophy was barely different.
Carr and Dantonio are basically mirror images in terms of how they staff(ed) their coaches. Lloyd upheld the same buddy system that got him the job to begin with.
November 18th, 2019 at 8:03 PM ^
Fuck lloyd Carr, his actions and inactions single handedly ushered in the dark years of RR and Hoke and at least dantonio didn’t actively encourage players and recruits to leave in a hissy fit about not being able to pick his successor! If Bo were around that clown show Carr wouldn’t have been allowed on campus for 10 years following that sabotage.
November 18th, 2019 at 8:09 PM ^
There was a time when those telling the truth about Lloyd were on the fringes of the fanbase, being yelled down as conspiratorial and disrespectful. Bacon's book changed a lot of that and Carr-bashing is now pretty mainstream. Ya love to see it!
November 18th, 2019 at 8:22 PM ^
I didn't read Bacons book...but.... Bo and Carr were partners in alot of decisions...notably, blocking Harbaugh for QB coach, for Loeffler..... Harbaugh was so pissed he even tried to get the MSU job... So I'm not so sure about the poster above saying Carr would be non grata by Bo for 10 years.
Carr's biggest flaw from this laymans position, was kowtowing to his boss Martin, the non-football guy. Seems he was too much of a yes man... and then stays on too long... then accepts RR as the appointment, and then is loyal to the deals he made with his recruits. I could be totally wrong here, and instead, he put himself above the program.
November 18th, 2019 at 9:00 PM ^
Given what we know now about Rich Rodriguez (fired from Arizona for sexual harassment), if Lloyd observed that kind of behavior from Rich here at Michigan . . . that would explain a lot about his actions.
November 18th, 2019 at 9:53 PM ^
In retrospect that seems like a reasonable take. IMO Arizona provided a lot of good "Rodriguez" data. It showed how he could do (mediocre, overall) without any distractions.
November 18th, 2019 at 10:21 PM ^
Yes, but, aside from a few good years Arizona hasn't been all that great. RR did fine there all things considered. His defenses sucked, as usual, but he was ultimately done in by his off field doings.
November 18th, 2019 at 11:38 PM ^
RichRod coached at Arizona for six seasons. He finished .500 or better in the conference twice. Adding his Michigan experience, in nine seasons after leaving West Virginia he finished .500 or better in his conference twice and below that level seven times. 2-7 is pretty awful for clearing such a low bar. How anyone can coach at Michigan and win a grand total of six conference games in three years will remain a mystery.
November 18th, 2019 at 8:15 PM ^
Mork has no right to walk away now. He couldn’t shut his yapper when they had the upper hand in the RR and Hoke years, and celebrated and boasted after their fluke 2015 win as if he actually deserved the victory.
He needs to stick around and take his medicine for the next few years. Run away after all the tough talk and rhetoric? Would make sense though given his character...typical bully...finally gets punched in the mouth and runs away like a coward.
Mork, you reap what you sow...finish your deposition for rape enabling, finish up your 60th ranked recruiting class, get your crap program ready for a 5 win season, and of course, be ready to bow down to HArbaugh again in East Landfill next year.
Remember Mork...”It will never be over”
November 18th, 2019 at 8:23 PM ^
and I just remembered this one....
"IT'S NOT A PRODUCT OF THE TEAM, BUT OF THE PROGRAM" when referring to the spike, I think.... as if Hoke condoned it... he apologized for it even... Fuck Dantoni.
November 18th, 2019 at 9:27 PM ^
Yeah, maybe. But Lloyd did not have to deal with an institutional embarrassment over a pervert doctor, nor the fallout from a series of players having issues with the law, nor mass transfers of players. He also had a better brand to sell. So I don’t think the dumpster fire that is MSU excuses Lloyd leaving the program in pretty lousy shape.
November 18th, 2019 at 10:14 PM ^
Loyd Carr was a very good football coach. He was Bo’s DC for many years and served on a great staff with the likes of Bill MCCartney and Les Miles. Dantonio can’t begin to compare to Carr.
November 18th, 2019 at 11:12 PM ^
uh Dantonio's coaching tree experience is pretty solid. Earl Bruce at OSU, Jim Tressel at YSU, Glen Mason at both OSU and Kansas, Nick Saban at MSU, Tressel at OSU. To name a few.
November 18th, 2019 at 11:34 PM ^
Lloyd was Bo's DC for three years. 1987 to 1989.
November 19th, 2019 at 12:38 AM ^
Lloyd Carr lost regularly to teams he shouldn't have. He offenses were stale and predictable. The fact that people look back on his tenure with fondness says more about how bad we have been since. He should have never risen to a level higher than Defensive Coordinator. His underutilization of Tom Brady -- the greatest QB in football history -- as well as the worst loss in program history (App State), and him being owned by Tressel speak more to Lloyd Carr's coaching ability than all of his so-called achievements, including 1997 when Charles Woodson (a Moeller recruit) carried the team on his back to the program's first National Championship in the modern era.
Carr was a great program ambassador. Not to be confused with a good coach.
November 19th, 2019 at 7:41 AM ^
Dantonio didn't lose to APPY
November 19th, 2019 at 7:52 AM ^
Lloyd, Mork. Lloyd definitely left the program in better shape (assuming that Mork is gone).
But the way to do it is to cheat your ass off, do embarrassing things to the program but continue to recruit at a high level. Then step away (or get taken out) leaving the program fully stocked for whoever is next. We all know of a school that has followed that model the last 2 cycles and it has worked for them.
November 19th, 2019 at 9:18 AM ^
I always expected Dantonio to go down like a crass seedy Khan. A massive explosion - implosion from which something else with worms emerges.
November 19th, 2019 at 11:20 AM ^
I haven't seen this discussed in all the chatter about Dantonio and his eventual departure: while his overall record is going to look like an MSU best, Mork Digiorno got extraordinarily lucky with 2 straight QB recruits.
Kirk Cousins and that dickhead Connor Cook were not highly regarded recruits. At all. They were guys that Michigan State "took" in the absence of higher ranked players. Yes, maybe the coaching staff gets some credit for developing them. But maybe they just got really lucky on underrated guys, twice in a row. Combine that with some down years for Michigan and D'antoni may have an artificially good resume.
Maybe we're seeing the real Mike Dantini now.
November 19th, 2019 at 11:43 AM ^
Even with the occasional frustration I always liked Lloyd. I don't get the constant hate the man gets from so many. Lets also remember the National Championship. We hadn't won a natty since 1948 and he delivered it!