OT: Underwhelmed. Michigan finished a distant third for their on-campus tours to Miami & OSU

Submitted by mGrowOld on July 27th, 2021 at 12:01 PM

Over the past couple of weeks I’ve started the college tour-thing with my youngest son.  Because we live in Ohio we visited OSU & Miami first (will visit Case Western Reserve, Oberlin & Kenyon next).  And because I’m a proud Michigan alum we visited Michigan next.   And unfortunately to say the “Michigan Experience” was underwhelming as compared to the first two would be an understatement. 

We started our tour in Columbus and were immediately placed in an empty conference room with a goodie bag of OSU swag on our chair with my son’s name on it.  Nothing terribly expensive or unique but it did give you the impression they were glad you were there.  While sitting in the room waiting for the tour to start there was a giant Brutus Buckeye to one side of the stage with a nice OSU power point presentation scrolling along.  Promptly at 2:00pm someone from admissions greeted us and told us how the next two hours would unfold.  Then about 10 OSU students came running in at full gallop with the leader yelling “O.H.” to the room (I obviously didn’t participate).  At this point I felt like I was at a pep rally and they split us up into 10 small groups for the campus tour (about 5 students/leader). 

The basic pitch OSU gives to prospective Freshmen is “we’re big – REALLY big” and because we’re big you’ll have a lot of opportunities both here and once you graduate.  They walked us around the campus itself (I was surprisingly impressed) and made stops at the library, the student union (that’s where the tour started), a dorm room, a cafeteria, their new rec center (that thing blew my son away it’s so new, modern and huge), the library (also modern and huge) and of course – the football stadium.  The tour ended at the honors hall where the student guide talked about the various opportunities students could have if they wished to pursue grad school both at OSU and other schools.  I have to admit I walked away with a very different attitude about OSU than I had going in.  I mean there’s still a significant academic gap between Michigan and OSU but that gap is closing and their working very hard at it.

Next up was Miami.  Miami again had us in a conference room but unlike OSU it wasn’t an empty one with folding chairs – it was a very nice theatre type environment located inside their admissions department.  They also had swag bags but instead of having them filled they had a table where you could pick up whatever materials you wanted on the various colleges inside the university as well as housing, scholarship and other school information.  They also gave a power point presentation but unlike OSU’s that simply played silently in the background theirs was narrated by the admissions director and was VERY impressive.  “96% of Miami graduates are either working in their chosen field of study or in grad school, 91% acceptance rate for law school, 75% acceptance rate for medical school” and so on.  They talked at length about the ROI for an degree at Miami – showing exactly what four years of tuition, room & board would cost and what the Miami degree would represent financially afterwards.  They showed all the businesses that did on-campus recruiting this past year.  They talked at length about graduate school opportunities and told the students they would be given an advisor to help them achieve their goals.  It was incredibly professional and to the point and definitely resonated with both my son and me.

The campus tour was very much like OSU except they showed the students an example of what the food selections would look like (award-winning allegedly) and spent a lot time in the classrooms themselves.  Tour of dorms, library, and campus itself (it’s freaking gorgeous) but no tour of the rec center or athletic facilities.  FWIW we went and looked at the rec center before leaving on our own and it was nice, albeit quite a bit smaller and older than OSU’s.  Their pitch was pretty simple “we’re very good academically and we know exactly why you are here.  And if you come here you’ll be positioned to achieve your education or financial goals once you leave.”

Last tour was Michigan’s and to say I was fired up for the one would be putting it mildly.  We started the day having lunch at the Brown Derby (had to the first time I’ve ever eaten there without any drinks first) and then we walked over to my old fraternity house, Sigma Chi, which is located next to the  Union.  Place was locked up unfortunately but he got to see the relative “splendor” of an old fraternity house as well as how centrally located it was.  After that it was off to the Regents Center for our tour to begin.  Others here had told me about the hype video they show so I was very much looking forward to seeing what Michigan put forward.  And then things started heading downhill.

We got there about 15 minutes early and were instructed to meet outside the Regents Center where my son checked in.  He was given a virtually empty bag from the M Den and told if we needed to use the bathroom before our tour to go to the international center and use theirs.  No video, no PowerPoint, no nothing.  Just at 2:00pm the tour started and they were very insistent that anybody late would need to reschedule – no waiting!  Our tour guide was a student just like OSU & Miami but unlike their tours that focused on what the incoming student would experience his presentation focused on his personal feelings & history with Michigan.   We stood outside West Quad where he told us about dorm life but we never went in and never saw a room (I told my son not to worry – dorm rooms are dorm rooms everywhere).  We stood outside the Michigan Union, again never went in, where he told us about John F. Kennedy’s speech launching the Peace Corps 60 years ago.  We then walked over to the law school where we stood outside in the courtyard, so pretty, where he talked about the law library but we didn’t go in.   Next stop was standing outside on University where he talked about the classes he took and gave us yet another history lesson on Ann Arbor and why it wasn’t the state capital.  After that we stood in front of U.G.L.I. (it’s not ugly anymore – who knew?) where he talked about the building’s renovation.  Last stop was in the diag where he talked about the legend of walking on the M (you’ll fail your first blue book exam) and pointed to Angel Hall and told them you’ll probably take a lot of classes in there.  Then it ended.

No mention of cost or ROI like Miami.  No tours of buildings and facility like OSU.  No mention of Michigan’s academic prowess nor what grad school might be like.  LOTS of talk about the history of Michigan and Ann Arbor itself which candidly, neither my son nor any prospective student seemed to give two shits about.  I know it really doesn’t matter in the great scope of things – Michigan will turn away WAY more students than they’ll admit – but it was still quite disappointing.  It felt like they didn’t think they needed to “sell” the students on coming here so they really didn’t even try.   And in some ways the day felt like a metaphor for the football team – all talk about the glorious past and no focus on the here and now.  He’s still going to apply and if accepted I’ll still pony up the insane out of state tuition costs but man I was so hoping for more.

Comments

James Burrill Angell

July 27th, 2021 at 3:48 PM ^

I'm going to drop this here though I put this in the MGoBoard post from the guy who lives in Ohio and his son wants to go to Michigan.

Just to give you an update on tours. The Office of Admissions JUST started doing tours again after shutting down in March 2020. This presents more of a problem than you think because two years worth of tour guides have graduated and all are seniors or juniors. Right now they are training students who have never given a tour and don't have any of the kids from the last two classes around to help them train the new people. It sucks. Accordingly they sent a few test groups out at the end of June and through July but they are severely limiting the number of tours (because they're still training tour guides) and the number of families who can go on the tour (I think its like 3 or 4 families at a time where in the old days it was 7 or 8). The other thing is that the tour only goes outside. They're not going into buildings. I believe the goal is to open to bigger groups thus making more availability once the fall rolls around and they get more seniors trained up and the University starts reopening. My suggestion is to wait until the fall and schedule something then.

AGAIN.... RIGHT NOW THE TOUR ISN'T WHAT IT WOULD NORMALLY BE!!!!! Do not get down on the University because of it. They're just trying to get off the mat with educating their tour guides who didn't get to learn by shadowing or talking to prior guides because they '20 seniors graduated and the '21 seniors never got to give tours and now they're gone. Further, the normal tour lets people into buildings but they can't do that right now as the buildings are still closed. 

My advice for anyone who toured in the last six weeks (since they started tours again) and likely until September is that you shouldn't take too much away. Ohio (as a state) has been much more open than we were so they're not as rusty and able to do more. If you were planning on taking the tour, I STRONGLY RECOMMEND YOU WAIT UNTIL SCHOOL STARTS TO ALLOW THE TOUR TO BOTH OPEN UP AND THE GUIDES TO BE TRAINED UP A LITTLE.  

Don't let that tour color your thoughts. Your kids should still apply and go do the tour again later either after they are admitted or when you come up for a football game. Just call first and see if they're letting tour groups in the buildings before you book the tour.

Prince Lover

July 27th, 2021 at 9:05 PM ^

My nephew is going to be a freshman this fall. Only tour he was given by the university was a virtual one at the beginning of June.
And streets not bereft of students does not mean streets not bereft of trained tour guide students. 
So while I also had a boss that said explanations are basically excuses, I’m willing to buy this is more a product of covid times….

JFW

July 28th, 2021 at 10:39 AM ^

"I once worked for a boss who had a sign that said “results not excuses.“

I had a boss like that once. I wanted to murder him. He never seemed to understand the difference between 'Reasons' and 'Excuses'. 

'You need to get the cardiologists to start filling out forms X, Y, and Z in order to get us metrics on how well our system is doing'. 

I explained to him that I A) Had no authority to do this, B) Was laughed out of the room when I explained the importance of metrics to improving a system (I'm a cardiologist. Not a clerk. I'm not doing a stupid form), and C) had zero power to enforce his decision. 

I was told I was giving 'excuses'. 'Be more persuasive.' In the end he just didn't want to deal with them himself. 

grumbler

July 29th, 2021 at 12:19 PM ^

I once worked for a boss who had a sign that said “results not excuses.“

I had a boss like that once. I wanted to murder him. He never seemed to understand the difference between 'Reasons' and 'Excuses'. 

My experience is also that bosses with simplistic signs have simplistic minds.  If you see a sign like that during a job interview, consider it a very bad sign (pun intended).

teldar

July 28th, 2021 at 9:36 AM ^

Take this how you want. Ultra liberal UM/Ann Arbor probably viewed COVID-19 as significantly worse than the plague and shut down everything. The fact they're not going into buildings this much later is a good reference. Most places don't hold a candle to UM for liberalism and liberalism and response to COVID-19 seem to be closely correlated. 

Shop Smart Sho…

July 29th, 2021 at 9:30 AM ^

You're right. I was probably too limiting on the choices there.

While I'm sure he's not an anarchist, it could be possible that he supports the return of some sort of monarchy. He could, maybe, be a fan of a limited tyrannical despotism, but that seems far-fetched. Seems more likely he'd enjoy a military junta.

What's your view? He obviously doesn't like Western Democracies in their varied forms, so what do you think does it for him?

tubauberalles

July 29th, 2021 at 6:19 PM ^

Granted, our timeline was a little earlier, as my kid is teed up to start their freshman year this fall, but we experienced a variety of tours, from nonexistent, to only virtual, to mix of in-person & virtual, to fully in-person.  In a pandemic like ours, with varying levels of community spread at different times, along with different public health and political responses, I think it's completely natural to expect a wide variety of tours and quality of tours.  That's great that you were able to visit Purdue, while U Indiana was not offering any in-person tours until only recently.  

It's not lost on a number of readers that the greater in-person experiences happened in Ohio and Pennsylvania, while the more curtailed versions happened in Michigan.

blue in dc

July 28th, 2021 at 8:38 AM ^

Thanks for taking the time to write this up.   A couple quick thoughts:

1. We took the tour several years ago.   We did have a talk before the tour and it did contain a video presentation before the actual talk began that I remember being very good.   Not having this seems unique to decision’s they are making regarding Covid.

2. In general, I feel like almost all of the talks before tours on campus visits I went to with my older daughter blurred together.    The only one that stood out for me was Northeastern’s where they emphasized the uniqueness of their internship program.  

3. Tour guides (and the amount of flexibility they were given to ad-lib) makes a big difference.    The best tour we went on was at University of Vermont.   The guide was super enthusiastic and every stop on the tour included an anecdote about someone he knew and what they did at the University.   The anecdotes covered such a wide scope that I imagine everyone related to at least one and probably more.   He painted a great picture of a campus you would interact with many different types of people.  Conversely our tour guide at U Mass was nowhere near as energetic and we all left with less positive feelings.

4. My feeling about the Michigan tour was similar to yours.   It was adequate, but wasn’t going to sell someone who didn’t already want to go.  I also don’t remember going into very many buildings, but I do seem to remember a model dorm room, possibly in West Quad?

5. Where Michigan did put in the extra effort was after she was accepted.  My daughter got more swag and more invites to local events from Michigan than any other school.   Unfortunately most of the other schools (including state schools) offered money, where Michigan offered none.  I hope one of my daughters ends up at Michigan for grad school, but it is hard to rationalize paying out of state tuition for undergrad since many kids who can get into Michigan can get significant money from other decent schools.

JacquesStrappe

August 4th, 2021 at 10:00 PM ^

This is not an acceptable excuse if everyone else is able to provide a better experience. As a loyal alum it hurts for me to say this, but sometimes the truth hurts.  Unfortunately it is a trend that I see in the football program and certain other areas of the university that smacks of hubris, lack of accountability, and an attitude of thinking of themselves as being better than they are.  Just like in football, a lack of humility will win them no fans.  Time to rid the administration of 'Harvard, Michigan of the East' attitude and remember that we are still in a dogfight to attract talented students from going to other great universities, of which there are many.  

MGoBender

August 17th, 2021 at 9:05 PM ^

RABBLE RABBLE UNACCEPTABLE RABBLE RABBLE

JBA is one of the most valued commenters on this board - I believe he is a significant member of the admissions department at UM. While it might be a slightly defensive post (understandably so), this commenter has probably helped more people on the MGoBoard than any other.

So, maybe don't be shitty and just accept that different schools and states had different COVID policies. Unfortunately, UM's COVID policies especially hurt the admissions tour process. 

Could there have been something more creative done? Maybe... I don't know. Outside of taking folks onto the Mich Stadium field and playing the hype video, they're slightly limited.

A tour is going to be on central campus around the diag. You can't go inside. The IM Building is awesome, but can't go inside and it's awesome in an old (but renovated) nostalgic way. ALmost no University can compete with OSU's RPAC. 

I guess what they maybe could/need to do is find a way to create an outdoor auditorium so they can play videos and create a more comfy waiting room type of deal. I dunno. I'm not gonna pretend like I know answers better than the people entrusted to the job.

dj123

July 27th, 2021 at 12:19 PM ^

Miami seems like a really nice school, and especially so if you're in-state. I tried to get my son to think about it, but he was small school all the way (and probably right about that).

JFW

July 27th, 2021 at 12:20 PM ^

"Michigan will turn away WAY more students than they’ll admit – but it was still quite disappointing.  It felt like they didn’t think they needed to “sell” the students on coming here so they really didn’t even try."

I think that's 100% true for Michigan right now. There is alot of institutional arrogance and very little need to have any kind of customer service or salesmanship. I'm told the standard application has massively increased the amount of applicants, so they don't feel *any* need to compete. Don't get me wrong; it's still possible to get a great education. And if you make less than 64K you can do it for free. But, to folks in the middle it's REALLY EXPENSIVE and REALLY HARD to get into and they don't care, because they don't have to. It's really very much a resting on their laurels situation. 

Luckily for them, so long as they have a loyal alumni base and still can offer a good education, along with excellent grad schools, they'll be fine. And... I do kind of get it. Why change if you're making money hand over fist and turning tons of people away? But it does kind of suck to see as an alumni. 

Michigan Arrogance

July 27th, 2021 at 1:06 PM ^

This is essentially the issue. Not just a Michigan issue tho: there are currently 2 types of schools: haves and have-nots. 

There are about 30, maaaybe 40-50 haves: Stanford, Duke, Ivy, Public Ivies, one could extend down to Penn St and Illinois and Minn, OSU: the flagships and perhaps some State Us like MSU, but I'd stop short there. They get soooo many apps, they don't have room for them all and barely have the staff in admissions to review them. Everyone (almost) would go if admitted and could afford it.

Have-nots are the regional/direction schools and the smaller schools. They need to roll out the red carpet at all times just to get a decent applicant pool to choose from. Also, this will get MUCH worse as we approach 2030 as there is a significant downturn in the 2025/26 and beyond class due to the 2008-2010 finiancial crisis that causes fewer ppl to have even fewer kids. Some schools are closing (VT had one close recently- consider it the canary in the coal mine). Some ppl estimate fewer college students in 2030 than in 2020. And COVID has already reduced that from about 20million in 2018-19 to about 17 million now, from what I've heard/read.

Now, MIami and OSU are good schools that are a bit middle of the road acadmically so they have motivation to REALLY recruit - not for more apps necessarily but for better students and they have some room to grow there (in quality not too much in quantity) to increase their academic profile.

MIchigan, the Ivies, (the top half of the 40-50) really don't have much room to get better, certainly in quantity, but even in quality. I mean, Michigan's acceptance rate in the 90s was 50%. Ten years ago, 35%. Today, 22-23%. Michigan's Ugrad admissions literally rejects as many acceptable candidates (that would excel at M) as they accept. They are focused on Yield (% of accepted that enroll) - so they do the hard sell on the kids who get in b/c, these days, kids that get into M are choosing Ivies/MIT/Duke/Chicago/NW vs Michigan.

It's a tough pill to swallow for those of us who are not in the 1-3% who cannot afford to pay for MIchigan, even if their kid gets in. Michigan just won't throw money at a kid (she just finished 9th grade) like mine who plays 2 sports, flute, works part time in summer, has a 93.5/100 average (all IB track/honors) and is on track for several IB courses, if not the diploma: 75% of the M apps are at her level or higher. But I'm fine with where she ends up and there will be plenty of schools that will throw money at her.

Michigan will take and throw money at the 98.5/100 kid who plays in the state-wide youth select orchestra and volunteers at the state capitol for a state senator. And plays 3 sports. 

JFW

July 27th, 2021 at 2:13 PM ^

It is a drag. My Mom taught at UM for several years and raised hell sometimes because she felt admissions was glossing over good in state kids, especially rural kids, in favor of out of state kids. But that was a long time ago. 

Now, with all the competition and all the applications, the 'uncommon education for the common man' idea seems well and truly dead at Michigan. I shouldn't say that, I know one kid who got in who qualified for the under 64K tuition grant. But I've known many kids like your daughter who are very, very good, but have very, very little chance of going to Michigan. So while it may not be completely dead it's greivously wounded. 

MacMarauder

July 27th, 2021 at 4:06 PM ^

I went to college (sorry, university) in Canada. Received a very good education and had a great time. Biggest downside is that when I graduated most of the job opportunities were Canadian and I wanted to move back to the US. I was able to use family connections in the auto industry to find a job so all ended well, but it's something to consider.

michengin87

July 27th, 2021 at 3:50 PM ^

Indeed.  Michigan is in that Ivy League situation where there are nearly zero academic scholarships, only need based.

My wife and I are grads.  We've been in Ohio for 30 years and have been financially fortunate.  We have one at UM now, and it's expensive.

It's an investment and like any other investment, there are risks and rewards.  It may not always be the best value for everyone.  As a kid, I was from PA and chose to go to UM because I loved everything about it.  My 2nd choice was Carnegie Mellon which was slightly more expensive then and still is.  I had every student loan that I could find to get me through and did all the work study that I could get, but I couldn't have been happier with my choice then or now.

JFW

July 28th, 2021 at 10:53 AM ^

It is an investment, and depending on your degree a good one. But, two things irk the hell out of me. 

First, when I was there they didn't have alot of guidance about 'Hey, this degree will get you a paying job in 4-5 years and you'll be able to pay off whatever loans you might have. 

Second, this:

College Tuition Is Rising at Twice the Inflation Rate—While Students Learn At Home (forbes.com)

infuriates me. It's 'Big University'. 

Hail2Victors

July 27th, 2021 at 7:06 PM ^

I agree with the have have not comment. 
 

But say Miami and OSU are middle of the road schools shows a lot ignorance on your part.  I hate to say it but OSU has upped their game in the last 20 years.  It’s actually pretty difficult to get in these days.  
 

Miami has one of the best business programs in the country. 
 

Plus, Michigan is a graduate university.  If I’m not mistaken there are more grad students than undergrads…. 

blue in dc

July 28th, 2021 at 11:27 AM ^

Also, on undergraduate business - Michigan makes most top 5 lists.   Miami seems to generally be in the upper  30s, 40s range.   Also, having a niece who just graduated with an undergraduate degree from Ross.   Was super happy with it.   One of the things I suspect differentiates a school like Michigan is the amount of recruitment on campus.   Also, even 30 years later, with only an undergraduate degree in engineering, my experience is that the name matters and does open up doors.

Hail2Victors

July 27th, 2021 at 7:07 PM ^

I agree with the have have not comment. 
 

But say Miami and OSU are middle of the road schools shows a lot ignorance on your part.  I hate to say it but OSU has upped their game in the last 20 years.  It’s actually pretty difficult to get in these days.  
 

Miami has one of the best business programs in the country. 
 

Plus, Michigan is a graduate university.  If I’m not mistaken there are more grad students than undergrads…. 

dotslashderek

July 31st, 2021 at 2:16 PM ^

This seems nonsensical.  All those top schools you mention are competing for elite students.  I guess your argument is that Michigan doesn't have to do much because they don't mind losing those students to the other top tier schools because they have an abundance of second tier students applying?

I don't mind an argument that the OP didn't have a typical experience, but arguing that Michigan doesn't have to compete for students is ridiculous.  They absolutely want to win over folk that have options at Stanford, Berkeley, MIT, etc - many with scholarship offers at those other elite universities.

Or are you saying they roll out the red carpet for those folk but not for less extraordinary applicants?  If that's the case your username is spot on.

Cheers.

Michigan Arrogance

August 1st, 2021 at 6:09 PM ^

Or are you saying they roll out the red carpet for those folk but not for less extraordinary applicants?  If that's the case your username is spot on.

Yes this. They roll out the red carpet for accepted students, those who need money and those who are at the very top of the admitted group. They don't roll it out to get more applicants