WTKA Roundtable 2/1/2024: It's Not Play for Pay It's Play for Work Comment Count

Seth February 1st, 2024 at 10:46 AM

Things Discussed:

  • Lost Herbert: Recruiting against Jim is tough.
  • DC: Zach Orr has a couple of NFL opportunities now so figuring that out will be the most important thing.
  • Concerned that this administration is going to Bennie Oosterbaan Sherrone Moore's program. Needs to not just support but lead the transition to a new version of the college football landscape.
  • Beefing up recruiting department: can criticize Jim Harbaugh here because he spent recruiting jobs on hires like Stalions and Shemy.
  • Sherrone going hard for ND's Chad Bowden. Fended off Harbaugh for Grant Newsome, fighting for Elston.
  • Warde: His "transformational not transactional" interview was the end for us; he's not the guy for the future. Transactional means fair; when you say you don't want that you're saying you don't want the players getting a fair deal.
  • Michigan's culture doesn't have to be these 1930s ideas. Hunter Dickinson would be here if we had this working right.
  • There's more in the tank: Michigan's Athletics department doesn't need to be taking money for naming buildings.
  • NCAA dysfunction has to be part of this. We should be leading the way towards fixing the system, not pretending the old system still works. Players don't benefit from everyone being a free agent because it makes them all replaceable. That system sucks for everybody because there's no investment in the players, there's less time to get to know your system, and nobody's getting an education.
  • Right now we're hanging onto a system that's already dead, falling into a terrible oligarchic system. System should be one that forces the universities to be stuck with the players they get, because it makes them responsible for the player's education and development. Right now the NCAA is antithetical to the higher ideal the NCAA was set up.
  • Seth: communist economies—that's what the NCAA model is—require a black market. The cheating is part of the system.
  • What we're seeing is the fall of that system, and what Michigan should be doing is leading the way to a new system.
  • How? Pay our players to be in a Super Bowl commercial advocating for a player's union, which we start here.
  • Seth & Brian argue whether the history of Oosterbaan/1950s is relevant today.

[Hit the JUMP for the player, and video and stuff]

You can catch the entire episode on Michigan Insider's podcast stream.

Seth came on early to talk Lions here. Segment 2 is here. You can watch the video here:

The Usual Links:

That guy's making 7 figures a year and telling other people not to get paid.

Comments

Don

February 1st, 2024 at 11:30 AM ^

In college football, we're already well into what came after Glasnost: Gangster Capitalism. Vicious battles for control of natural resources and wealth-generating entities erupted everywhere; money and aggression were necessary to triumph in a completely lawless environment. The weak and powerless were trampled underfoot.

sdogg1m

February 1st, 2024 at 1:09 PM ^

I am glad Brian is on the fire Warde bandwagon but he also excused Warde for his handling of the Harbaugh situation because Harbaugh left to win a Superbowl. The handling of Jim's contract is important regardless of Jim's desire because it showcases our directors ability to handle a tough situation and also the type of manager he is moving forward.

In my mind, it's not the comments on NIL that disqualifies Warde but his reduction of Harbaugh's salary and then his short-sightedness in making things right when Jim Harbaugh interviewed with the Vikings. Michigan doing nothing for Jim in regards to the investigations and subsequent suspensions was the final straw.

Jim stated all the right things during this such as "Don't get bitter, get better." Everyone around Michigan should have known that when your top employee is throwing around the word bitter in describing his work situation then things are not going well.

MGlobules

February 1st, 2024 at 3:11 PM ^

Paul Farmer--and most students of the period--would disagree. The Soviet health system collapsed. Many, many people died, esp. in (former) Soviet prisons. The period of cowboy capitalism that followed was a crazed free-for-all that savages like Larry Summers and his Harvard boys insisted was necessary, but created a predatory period in which the oilygarchs were created. One can trace a relatively straight line to Putin, who people like Henry Kissinger admired. If anyone writes a half-truthful account of the period, it will not look pretty, let alone organized. Much of the current ugly traces to it.

Edit: I think that all regulated and or taxed economies produce black markets. As competitors seek advantages in those economies, and as poor people pursue the narrow margins that they need to survive.

AnxietyRules

February 1st, 2024 at 11:33 PM ^

To the discussion during the roundtable about whether the history of decades or a century ago is relevant, I agree with you 100%, Seth, and not just because I was also a History major at U of M. The history matters because institutional history and one's personal legacy within its arc are absolutely daily considerations for most senior leaders at any major, prestigious legacy institution.  They view every decision through the lens of their place in history as it relates to the defining professional and communal association of their lives.  That goes for university presidents and regents (if not always ADs), who are exactly the people who would need to step up for M to lead boldly into the next era of fairer, more competitive and ultimately more sustainable college athletics.  Whether or not one of the steps they would take is replacing the AD with someone who could see past their own experiential confirmation bias ("my Michigan education is the reason I weathered injury and made something of myself" vs. "we have the opportunity to continue providing that valuable education to college athletes and also get them paid in case of injury") is a different question.  

I also think the comparison to the shifting economic paradigms of the Soviet and post-Soviet eras is dead on, because it properly frames the moment as an inevitable economic transition that carries with it the (not inevitable) opportunity for social progress to a more ethical model.  What people do now can determine whether or not the promise of that progress is realized as an equitably distributed universal good across the ecosystem in question.

Finally, it really struck me how much Sam's invocation of the collectives and crowd-sourced fundraising vehicles like One More Year set me off.  It's not because he's wrong about the practical need for mechanisms like those to be stood up and be successful in the current transitional context of college football and basketball.  But having just listened along to such passionate and well-articulated arguments from Seth and Brian for moral clarity about where things need to go, and while getting about excited about the opportunity Sherrone Moore has to build upon Jim Harbaugh's well-intentioned but incomplete advocacy for revenue sharing at a national level (ideally supported by U of M leadership), I was outraged to be immediately faced with the reality that as of this moment, the impetus is being put upon (small and large dollar) donors to pay the players for their work.  Workers should absolutely be paid, and they should be paid the full value of what the market will bear (until we rise up and throw off the shackles of freemarket capitilism amirite comrades).  But the notion that the University/B1G/NCAA should be able to preside over the primary cash cannon that is selling broadcast rights to media companies, and then turn to loyal bases of alumni and donors and say "hey, you gotta pay up if you want to keep Hunter, Blake, JJ" is offensive.  Why does the market value the players' labor so highly that it requires millions of dollars to retain their services?  Precisely because the media companies will shell out billions to broadcast them playing!  SHARE THE REVENUE DIRECTLY WITH THE PEOPLE WHO GENERATE IT, and the conferences and universities should get paid as brand managers at least and management at most.  Ownership, they are not.

Ernis

February 1st, 2024 at 10:59 AM ^

Transactional means fair; when you say you don't want that you're saying you don't want the players getting a fair deal.

Thank you for calling it like it is. There is a way for transactional to be used pejoratively, but that requires that the basic transactional needs are already being met - then you can get to relational, transformational, what have you. It is certainly not ideal for the transaction to be the end all be all, because it represents the minimum necessary. 

But you can’t skip over it and go straight to transformational, unless you’re running a monastery. And I would further argue that treating people like monks, giving them subsistence wages while raking in hundreds of millions from their work is not a good faith exercise and is in fact exploitative, worthy of vigorous condemnation.

Insisting that players must accept below-market-value compensation for their labor to play revenue sports at UM isn’t a recipe for long-term success, and that’s about the nicest thing we can say about it.

 

P.S. That was a great, thoughtful discussion. Seth’s history lesson should be well-taken: those who fail to remember the past are condemned to repeat it!

dragonchild

February 1st, 2024 at 11:45 AM ^

Right, and it's not the false choice Manuel is making it out to be.  In fact, making it one-or-the-other is disgusting and insulting.

Michigan doesn't need to "buy" players in the sense that they need to make the highest offer.  Not for the guys they want.  They don't want OSU merc nonsense anyway.  Michigan has huge advantages that appeal to certain players that other programs don't offer.  So they can look at an OSU or TAMU and scoff that they're too "transactional", because it's true.  When players only care about money, they tend to not care too much about the job.

But Michigan can't recruit on only those advantages.  They need to offer enough for the money to not matterThen you've transcended "transactional".  It's the same with any job.  Sure, some people will only go to the biggest paycheck, but these folks are generally assholes.  A lot of folks consider things like opportunity, work environment, self-fulfillment, things like that -- and will happily balance those with a place offering 10%, 20% less.  Maybe even 30% less.  But the place offering perks over dough still needs to offer enough.  Whatever gets everyone at the table to stop talking about money.  It's not even that hard.  It's certainly easier than finding people to work for you for nothing.

And the thing about "transformational" is, the money IS the respect.  If you're paying someone nothing, you're telling them you think they're worth nothing.

P.S. Some people want to repeat the past.

schizontastic

February 1st, 2024 at 12:41 PM ^

Yes, agree. And many fans that are "turned off" by the "transactional" nature of recruiting now are in fact more turned off more by having to argue about it rather than the concept itself (as could be executed by UM).  If enough $ is on the table for all the major programs at a level that "money does not matter [to many players]", I think these fans would be fine with that set up.

 

Chaz_Smash

February 1st, 2024 at 12:47 PM ^

The NCAA has spent years and millions trying to preserve the system of: YOU have to play more games so WE can make more money. Warde is just falling in line. It's OK for him to be well-compensated for a leisurely job, but heaven forbid the players want to help their parents pay the bills or have some money for their future.

Appreciate these guys for calling it like it is, reprehensible

crg

February 1st, 2024 at 11:28 AM ^

So it is "work" simply because there is a large market value for watching the product?  For those students who play Olympic sports and put in the same number of hours per week in their (after-school) sport, is that not "work"?  What about those putting in similar hours for non-sport after-school activities (marching/pep bands, etc.)?

If the university is going to make participation in a select few number of student activities "transactional" (whatever connotation one wants to take that), how can it logically not apply that same practice to all the other similar activities?

goblue2121

February 1st, 2024 at 11:44 AM ^

This is a good question and I'm not sure how you navigate this. Seems like there is going to be a lot of money going to legal teams here soon. Football and basketball are such different animals when it comes to revenue that they almost have to be separated from all other sports/activities. This is going to be a disaster. 

Brian Griese

February 1st, 2024 at 11:59 AM ^

They should be separated but Title IX doesn’t allow it. That’s my problem with this issue - people will continue to harp about the NCAA and universities involvement in this ‘problem’ without stopping and asking themselves this question: What’s the odds of finding 218 house members, 50 senators and a president that are going to change Title IX to allow male athletes in a couple of sports to make bank while all other male and female athletes get left out in the cold?

rc90

February 1st, 2024 at 12:11 PM ^

What’s the odds of finding 218 house members, 50 senators and a president that are going to change Title IX to allow male athletes in a couple of sports to make bank while all other male and female athletes get left out in the cold?

If that's what's needed (and I'm not sure that it is), then I think the odds are pretty good. No senator from Alabama or Michigan or Washington or Texas wants to get in the way of the local school having a good football team, and everybody is convinced that every other school out there has an Unfair Advantage in the current environment.

Brian Griese

February 1st, 2024 at 12:25 PM ^

1) Why don’t you think Title IX reform is needed as it pertains to universities compensating athletes?

2) The whole purpose of Title IX was to put women’s athletics on something close to an equal footing with men’s sports and educational opportunities. Wouldn’t changing the law to prop up men’s basketball and football spit right in the face of what Title IX was intended to do?

4th phase

February 1st, 2024 at 2:52 PM ^

Because the title IX thing keeps getting repeated, I'll keep repeating myself: Title IX does not require that every athlete receive exactly the same perks and benefits. Only that there are fair opportunities for all athletes. The softball team takes a bus to all their games. The football team has a chartered jet. The football team has ridiculously lavish facilities. Those facilities are not open to the women's volleyball team. So as long as paying football players does not require the AD to shut down any sports (it wouldn't), title IX would not be violated.

 

P.S. just to expand on why paying the players would not bankrupt non rev sports. Non rev sports aid accounted for 10% of the Michigan AD budget. Meanwhile 60% of the revenue goes to paying admins and coaches. Warde's salary is 3x higher than Bill Martin's in 2009. As the money in the sport has gone up, it's really not hard to see where it all went. And as Brian correctly points out, the guy who has all the money is telling others they deserve nothing.

Brian Griese

February 1st, 2024 at 3:55 PM ^

You’re correct that Title IX doesn’t require that everyone get the exact same thing penny for penny, but do you really think that your average football player getting (for example) $200,000 from a university while a not single women’s athlete gets a dime is really an “equal opportunity on the basis of sex”? 

Whether Michigan should cut money from administrators and coaches and direct it to players is a matter of opinion but I fundamentally disagree that paying (some) male athletes and not women’s athletes or non-revenue male athletes can be done with the way Title IX is written; it screams discrimination on the basis of sex and lack of opportunity if you don’t play football or men’s basketball. 

WrestlingCoach

February 1st, 2024 at 4:31 PM ^

There is opportunity, just not a market. If a women’s gymnast from UofM blew up and was on the olympic team and won gold (bad example I know, gymnast train for the olympics before college age) then they would also have the opportunity to cash in way more than any football player. Title IX is about equal opportunity, not outcome.

ca_prophet

February 2nd, 2024 at 6:25 PM ^

What do you do when the opportunities are not equally available, because of gender-biased markets?  Title IX has traditionally been interpreted to be market-agnostic in terms of inputs - if you want a men's underwater-basket-weaving team, that's just fine as long as you provide a women's stunt-parachuting team with approximately equal rosters.  Whether the athletic opportunities are in popular sports or not is irrelevant.

Now, Title IX does not require that equal dollars be spent - parachutes can be more expensive than reeds-for-baskets -  but that "opportunities" and "benefits" be the same, and that scholarship dollars be proportional to representation.  Courts have ruled that "benefits" + scholarships cover total compensation provided, but doesn't include facilities.

So, buying platinum toilet seats for the football team is fine, but paying players from the University would likely not be, without spreading around a proportional amount to the women's athletes.

And frankly, that would be great!  The University should be more than willing to take the stream of money flowing into the AD, and redirect it out away from the AD staff - how many times has the size of the AD and salaries thereof been pointed out here? - both to the athletes and back to the University.  Use those dollars to lower tuition and offer a baseline lifetime health care package to all former student-athletes.

 

Zetroit

February 1st, 2024 at 12:26 PM ^

You’re right. Brian Griese has a good point regarding Title IX, but I think reassessing some of those implications are going be necessary. The expenditures for revenue sports are already wildly imbalanced. Seems like the path forward would be to separate hoops and fball from the rest of college sports, with every other sport following Title IX. Then go to the courts. Players unionizing could help generate this change. 

dragonchild

February 1st, 2024 at 11:50 AM ^

For those students who play Olympic sports and put in the same number of hours per week in their (after-school) sport, is that not "work"?

You're more making a case that the Olympics are equally corrupt and exploitative than anything about NCAA athletics.

None of these are beer leagues.  Oh, it's not too hard to find extremely motivated amateurs, but a huge number of children who go on to compete in the Olympics have horrible stories to tell of parental and/or coaching abuse.

crg

February 1st, 2024 at 4:08 PM ^

The case I am making is more that public universities cannot rationally have separate policies for what are fundamentally the same activity offerings for students.  The only fundamental difference between the "revenue" varsity sports and all the other varsity sports is what people outside the schools are willing to pay to watch them (hence nothing different in terms of the educational mission statement of the university).

I'm not certain *any* school sport can be labeled as "corrupt" or "exploitative" when it is provided by the university (optional - schools are not required to provide these sports) to students that are supposed to be focused on taking classes first and foremost, while not having ti *pay out of pocket or raise funds* to participate in these sports (ask the UM women's hockey team about that one), and even provides them the opportunity to have their entire education costs covered (and that is before even getting into NIL and the opportunities that participating in these sports opens up once they leave the school).

4th phase

February 1st, 2024 at 11:52 AM ^

I mean the answer is obviously yes. For the same reason that being a PGA pro is a job and the average person playing golf on the weekends is a hobby. Once it has a large market value, it is inherently work. Work isn't measured by how many hours you do something. If you play video games as a hobby, once you put in hundreds of hours it doesn't suddenly become your job. It only becomes a job for people who have the online following to watch them play.

Ernis

February 1st, 2024 at 12:13 PM ^

Exactly, the market value is the point.

Should Michigan refuse to receive the market value for the product they put on the field because athletes in non-revenue sports don’t bring in as much money? I hope we can all see the absurdity of this suggestion, which is equivalent to the one proffered about the athletes themselves

crg

February 1st, 2024 at 4:13 PM ^

The difference being that neither the PGA nor the local golf league is being offered by the university as part of a diversified educational experience for their students (which is why schools offer *any* sports in the first place).

The PGA is a for profit institution with the explicit purpose of generating profit (and paying its participants to do so).  Universities are not.

schreibee

February 1st, 2024 at 2:03 PM ^

It seems you're conflating "transactional" with "legal, ethical or moral" here, crg?

As has been pointed out, according to current statute they really can't legally separate the football & basketball players into a different class from other athletes due to Title IX. Unless & until Title IX is amended or repealed this preposterous system of "NIL" will have to remain in place. 

So how does Michigan maintain a focus on being "transformational" while also recognizing that it needs to have an element of the relationship with revenue sports athletes be "transactional"?

A few years ago this blog popularized the term "money cannon" for the manner in which Michigan easily won almost any contest of raising money for various endeavors. They, perhaps naively, thought the same would happen when paying athletes inevitably became legal. Clearly that was a wildly misguided perception. 

Officially Michigan remains hands off, in accordance with current ncaa regulations,  but also with Michigan state law. That's where any new focus must begin. Make it legal for state universities to at least guide the NIL efforts. And legal for the AD to kick in too.

But will any of those things happen? I have my doubts...

 

crg

February 1st, 2024 at 4:17 PM ^

"Transactional" in this instance is the direct quid pro quo of payment from the universities (and/or proxies) for service rendered to the schools... which is fine for an employment or independent contractor arrangement.

Yet school sports were not intended to ever be such, and it would become difficult to logically (and ethically) argue thar university varsity sport "A" should be handled in such a transactional nature while university varsity sports "B" should not.

dragonchild

February 1st, 2024 at 11:40 AM ^

Etymology time:  "Pay for play" does not pertain to sports.  It refers to the corrupt system of commercial music, wherein media companies (initially radio but these days you can include streaming sites) would take -- if not demand -- bribes in exchange for artificially bumping songs up their rotations (and later, "recommended" lists).  It's about literally playing songs; it should not be used in a sports context at all.

MGlobules

February 1st, 2024 at 11:40 AM ^

No longer feeling quite so vehement in defense of Juwan--among the things I find toughest now is that he's not the most eloquent defender of himself or the program, its challenges, etc. (Beilein sucked at this too, some people will remember). BUT. . . if you imagine we HAD Dickinson, Love, TSJ II (minus the ugly), or a functional NIL that might have meant all kinds of unknown possibilities. . . the inducements to keep a little pile of guys who are in the NBA/G League now at home. . . I think it's obvious we're putting a far better team on the floor.

Just to pursue this one step further: Michigan is leading in almost all of these games this year through the first half; we were putting up lots of points at the beginning of the season. Juwan IS a good tactician, even by the assessment of some who have become quite critical of the program. So if we're going to be fair to Juwan, in our assessment, what's the problem--do we suck in second halves? Is Juwan getting out-coached? No, we're getting all we can out of about four and a half functional players, then running out of gas. Our players are exhausted. It's worth taking this into account when, like most fans, all we can do is shout fire the boss, rather than dig into whys and wherefores.

Juwan DID raise his voice about the failure of NIL a minute ago, then underwent a serious heart procedure. I don't blame him if, under these conditions, he quits. But the failure will not be his alone, that's obvious. At least to those who really want to look.

People will remember (well no, they don't) that in his EIGHTH year at Michigan, John Beilein went 16-16 and was getting killed on these boards. (Try looking up the kind of stuff that some of the people who now adore Beilein were saying then!) He was forced to hire what was effectively a second head coach to obtain us a defense. He turned things around big time. The REALLY sad thing is that given NIL, Warde's stance, the current lineup, etc. this situation won't--cannot--be rectified in a year. I thought that--given the circumstances--Juwan and the coaches did a good job filling gaps late last year. But this tragedy is not resolving itself in success, from what I can see. I say screw everyone who doesn't at least have a bit of empathy in this situation, but--hey--that's anonymous mooks on sports sites; that comes with this territory. And few people are my age, or possess the reverence that some of us oldsters do for the Fab V and their legacy, for Juwan.

mGrowOld

February 1st, 2024 at 12:01 PM ^

Very well put and summarizes my feelings exactly.  Not quite sure what firing Juwan and bringing in someone new will do to help a situation that's largely due to the deadly combination of our admissions department and ineffectual AD preventing him from getting the kids he needs to be successful.

This is like the videos you see of people attacking the poor kid at the drive through window at a McDonalds because the ice cream machine is broken.  We're taking out our frustrations on the wrong guy.

crg

February 1st, 2024 at 4:25 PM ^

our admissions department and ineffectual AD preventing him from getting the kids he needs to be successful.

 

Or... maybe Juwan is not looking at the "right" kids.  We know Michigan has higher standards than other schools - this is not a "bad" thing and only becomes an issue *when people don't properly plan for it*.

(And "right" isn't just their classroom performance - it includes attitude, expectation, effort, availability, etc.  Finding people that are near locks to be *able* to come, but also want to *stay* for the long haul and eventually become team leaders - not simply blow town at the first opportunity.)

We know that Michigan can get "good" kids that both play well and fit in Michigan's academics... Beilein did this for over a decade.  Harbaugh did for nearly a decade.

The problem is when the people doing the recruiting (and those facilitating the process) fail to perform due diligence.  Things happen and sometimes it doesn't work out for a kid here and there (e.g. maybe they let the grades slip near the end of HS, or got into some other trouble, etc.)  But when it becomes a *recurring issue* with a program's recruiting... that is the fault of those running that program.

jmblue

February 1st, 2024 at 12:15 PM ^

People will remember (well no, they don't) that in his EIGHTH year at Michigan, John Beilein went 16-16 and was getting killed on these boards. 

That Michigan team was hit hard with injuries - both LeVert and Walton were lost for the season.  It still competed hard but was outmanned.  That was the season we kept losing games in overtime. 

Very, very different context now.  Our coach doesn't have a 30-year track record to fall back on, and this team has been healthy (although its starting PG is dealing with an academic suspension).

Also, it would take a miracle just to reach .500.

Last season is a closer analogy to 2014-15.  This year is a whole other level of terribleness.  

MGlobules

February 1st, 2024 at 1:51 PM ^

Of course. But if you just shake your head and mutter 'terrible, terrible,' the lynch mob can proceed. If you stop and ask why maybe you prevent these issues (some of them?) from haunting us for another decade. Because Juwan is loved by the players, can think the game, etc. So if we say, "Well, he can't recruit. . ." and then hamstring the next coach in recruiting in these same ways. . . Let's at least have this conversation be about the real issues rather than just. . .feeling good about feeling bad, which is kind of a sports blog specialty.

I regret that Brian and Seth write and think so acutely about football and are so perfunctory about hoop, are now just contributing to the rancor. But this is a football blog, when all is said and done.

jmblue

February 1st, 2024 at 2:23 PM ^

Lynch mob, really?  It is not Juwan Howard's birthright to be our men's basketball coach.  If he loses his job, after five seasons, that would not be a violation of his civil rights.

Nor would it be particularly unfair from a basketball standpoint.  He inherited a program that had recorded back-to-back 30-win seasons.  This year we may be hard-pressed to even win 10 games.  That's a stunning decline, and there's not much hope on the horizon.  

This roster isn't well constructed, but it isn't bereft of talent.  Nkamhoua, Burnett, Llewellyn and Jackson all started for other D-I programs.  Reed, McDaniel and Washington III were top 100 recruits.  Williams and Tschetter have been in the program 3-4 years.  This team is far worse than the sum of its parts.  There is no excuse for it to be one of the worst defensive teams in school history.  

Outside of a couple of memorable games in March 2022, this program has not performed well for three seasons now, and that's despite churning out four NBA draft picks.  There's currently no plausible reason to expect much different in 2024-25.  With the portal, our roster might end up gutted again.

(This isn't even getting into Howard's apparent anger issues, which resulted in him slapping an opposing coach and getting into so heated a confrontation with our strength and conditioning coach that the latter decided to step away from the program.)

Barring a miracle finish, this program will need a total reboot at the end of the season.