WTKA Roundtable 1/5/2023: What Constitutes a Source Close?
Things discussed:
- The Fiesta Bowl: Mistakes maximally punished—Michigan's game-swinging oopsies were worth two or three oopsies each, which turns the rest of the game into background noise.
- The rest of the game: Why does it take 3 quarters to get to McCarthy's legs? Why are we making the mistakes that defined the last month of college football? Why don't we keep throwing flea flickers?
- Break: Get back Corum?
- Harbaugh: Don't think it's coming from Harbaugh but from the NFL. Harbaugh obviously has some NFL interest or he'd shut these rumors down. Brian: It's got to be coming from the agent, because nobody else in the world would be saying "I know what Harbaugh's going to do."
[Hit the JUMP for the player, and video and stuff]
You can catch the entire episode on Michigan Insider's podcast stream.
Segment 2 is here. You can watch the video here:
MGoBlog Roundtable https://t.co/2zaGFBOGoE
— The Michigan Insider (@michiganinsider) January 5, 2023
The Usual Links:
- Helpful iTunes subscribe link
- General podcast feed link
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Direct download link (right-click/save as)
- What's with the theme music?
Can't you just put on a recording of last year's version of this and we can say the same stuff?
January 5th, 2023 at 10:49 AM ^
In regard to Corum, class started yesterday and he was in LA watching the Lakers, so take that fwiw
January 5th, 2023 at 6:06 PM ^
To be fair, he was there to hand out a turkey to Russell Westbrook.
January 5th, 2023 at 6:34 PM ^
He is rehabbing in LA, so it’s not like he is just there to hang out. Not sure if that gets him out of potential class somehow or not though. Maybe not a definate sign he is gone though, hopefully!
January 5th, 2023 at 6:37 PM ^
Shamone. If he was returning to Michigan, he'd need to be in class, and there is a pretty good medical team in Ann Arbor.
January 6th, 2023 at 2:55 AM ^
I don't recall if there is a rule about attendance for class on the first day. "Back in my day" as the saying goes, I had a number of athletes who were enrolled in the same classes that I was taking. I think I could count on one hand the number of times I saw them actually attend class.
January 5th, 2023 at 10:59 AM ^
Having an agent relieves Harbaugh of having to promote and advocate for himself - something he may be reluctant to do or negotiate sharply so that may take some things off his plate that he finds uncomfortable. BUT an agent may feel a need to justify his fee and so maybe an inadvertent source of this. For example, he maybe reaching out to introduce himself to some people in the NFL and what seems to him/her a trivial comment maybe now viewed as "solid interest"
NFL person: so, any Harbaugh would come back to the NFL?
Agent: never can say never, depends on the offer.
Subsequent game of telephone from NFL person from one person to another person who becomes the 'source' morphs this into "Harbaugh will accept any NFL offer".
January 5th, 2023 at 11:40 AM ^
Harbaugh apparently had a conversation with the Panthers owner. That is not just agent noise. Maybe this can be explained some other way, but the explanation are starting to sound like the bad guy in a Columbo episode.
January 5th, 2023 at 12:05 PM ^
Thank you Seth for being the one person I don't need to reach for the volume button for besides Sam.
January 5th, 2023 at 12:18 PM ^
Listening to the Roundtable this morning was a depressing recap of incredibly puzzling coaching decisions on both sides of the ball.
Completely outcoached for most of the game.
January 5th, 2023 at 6:07 PM ^
We turn into pumpkins once December 10th hits.
January 5th, 2023 at 8:03 PM ^
It’s been that way since 1-1-70.
January 6th, 2023 at 11:39 AM ^
On offense, the first half and part of the third quarter was early Harbaugh -- sticking with the run even though it didn't work, a dumb trick play on the goal line that didn't fool the other team, and not putting the offense in a position to succeed / make easier yards -- here, not using JJ as a runner and not threatening the edges early in the game.
On defense, yeah, I don't know -- aggressive blitzing was not the play, that's for sure. A bad time for Minter to have his worst game schematically of the season.
So yeah, outcoached for sure.
January 5th, 2023 at 12:28 PM ^
After listening to the roundtable and having several days to ponder wtf happened on Saturday I think we took TCU too lightly (were overconfident we could bully them, as Sam said), we were outcoached (unfathomable) and were outplayed on the field. It was a total unicorn game, completely unforeseeable after a 13-0 season with everything on the line, and it was miraculous that we were in position to win anyway.
As for Harbaugh, my take is that he has an agent for a reason and is open to listening for opportunities. Sam said he's not actively pursuing such opportunities but hiring an agent, which is notably different from Harbaugh's SOP, means he's interested in returning to the NFL if the right offer comes along.
I continue to think he'll be at Michigan next year and Warde should certainly "show him some love" in whatever way would make Jim feel wanted and respected that is commensurate with his amazing coaching job these past two seasons (until last Saturday).
It may or may not be enough to keep Harbaugh here if the right NFL offer comes along but it's obviously a highly competitive business and Harbaugh has earned a new contract (despite signing his last one ~1 year ago).
January 5th, 2023 at 6:39 PM ^
How did Harbaugh get out-coached through his QB and RB fumbling a snap at the opponents' 1 yard line, and through his QB throwing two INT-TDs?
That's not being out-coached. Those are mistakes made by 18-22 year olds. Those aren't Harbaugh's fault. Take one of those mistakes away and they play Monday for the title.
January 5th, 2023 at 7:07 PM ^
Not using JJ's legs (or even the threat of them) til the 3rd quarter was a huge mistake by a 59 yr old millionaire.
January 5th, 2023 at 10:02 PM ^
Especially since TCU was leaving the backside wiiiiiide open. At least show it once or twice to soften their run defense.
January 6th, 2023 at 10:43 AM ^
Yeah, I agree with Sam's opinion from the show that this was a mix of coaching mistakes, player mistakes, bad calls and bad luck, and that we STILL almost won.
I'm obviously not as smart as anybody on Harbaugh's team about football, but in hindsight, I think the coaching mistakes were:
1) The Philly Special was too fancy. Kick the field goal or do a simpler run play.
2) Handing it off under center at the 1 is too risky. The players are packed in tight, and they're not as used to it. A quarterback sneak is a lower risk play.
3) It looks like Harbaugh was not using JJ as a run threat to lower the risk that JJ gets hurt in a way that impacts the final, but in hindsight it looks likely that we should have run once or twice early to at least threaten a QB run going forward, or at least we should have broken the "in case of emergency run JJ" glass much sooner than we did.
4) It also looked like one of our half time adjustments was to increase our blitz rate substantially, which worked for a little while, but once TCU had adjusted, it felt like we didn't have a response to their counter, and we kept blitzing long after they had shown they could beat it.
#s 3 and 4 reminded me of OSU against Michigan. OSU didn't run CJ and kept up a super aggressive defense long after we showed we could beat it. Somehow, we fell into the same trap here.
January 6th, 2023 at 11:41 AM ^
Philly special was stupid and showed how overconfident the staff was imo. They didn't score on the 1st three plays and that's what they ran after calling a time out? That was an arrogant call and really gave tcu momentum.
Handoff or boot or something. That def front was essentially a bear front all game, esp at the goal line, a boot or play action off of their aggressive run calls would have been perfect on both goal line series. The risk with having Mullings as the up back/fb on the fumble was the te lined up deep as the rb, TCU keyed on Mullings so it isn't like there was a secret. JJ just kind of tossed the ball in Mullings gut and he didn't take the ball from JJ either, so it's on both of them.
Not running JJ till later in the game, was mind numbing, there were so many plays in the 1st half and early second half they didn't even look to cover JJ. Also telegraphed every single run play like we could just bully ball that 3 front with 3 stack and never leveraged to get off the tackles till it was too late. Just dumb.
I completely think our staff was way overconfident they could just bully ball this game away and it would be over. I also think going in at halftime our staff felt they could get the scores back and would be just fine. I cannot believe the massive mistakes in coaching.
Defensively, same issues at dline and lbers.from all season. Not enough true depth, sure we had a good rotation, but not an elite rotation. Mike Morris not healthy hurt the de's in this game and tcu had no problems running right at them and our lbers again were a massive problem.
January 6th, 2023 at 12:02 PM ^
Solid viewpoint. But one could also make the case that these crippling mistakes have to do more-or-less directly with the staff's (and most likely Harbaugh's) coaching:
On the fumble -- The staff put JJ under center, which he is less familiar with this season. At RB, the staff put in a converted LB, one who is less familiar with handling the ball. These two factors made it more likely that a problem with the exchange would occur. I'm not saying the responsibility doesn't lie with the players to execute, but they were put in a poorer position by the staff.
On the out-route -- JJ threw this late, something we have seen more of as the season has gone on. This is probably related to Harbaugh constantly drilling him about not making mistakes, giving him more and more to process instead of just using his ability. Again, it's on JJ for doing that, but it can certainly be related back to coaching. Plus, if the playcallers loosen up the damn defense, maybe the defender isn't sitting on that out.
To be clear, I'm not absolving the players. But it sure would have been nice if, in the first half, the players would have been put in better positions to succeed.
January 5th, 2023 at 12:39 PM ^
I blew my knee out on FieldTurf when it was first installed at O'Baan, some other dudes on our team did too. So I always thought it was worse than grass but I don't think there's data to back that up.
January 5th, 2023 at 1:29 PM ^
I think there is evidence that, while it is superior to the old Astroturf, it does lead to more joint injuries than a healthy grass field. NFL players generally express a preference for grass over Fieldturf.
The problem is that it's hard to maintain a grass field over the course of the season in a northern climate. It's even more problematic in our particular case, as the field at Michigan Stadium is close to the water table, so grass doesn't take root well.
January 5th, 2023 at 12:41 PM ^
We didn't play our game. We have taken field goals during the season. Moody was our weapon. The Philly Special was not the move. Run the ball.
Is JJ not seeing someone sit on those out throws in practice? We haven't seen that from McCarthy.
Why did we not go back to the run. We could have run a conservative approach and truck'd these guys.
January 5th, 2023 at 4:21 PM ^
The Bud Clark pick six was a pretty sick play. Unfortunately, we don't use double moves enough for him to have any semblance of caution attacking the out. That plus a bad throw, a sloppy route, and no chance for Bell to make a play on the ball was a bad combo
January 5th, 2023 at 7:04 PM ^
It wasn't a bad throw. JJ just threw it way too late. That's a cardinal sin for a QB throwing an out route because it gives DB time to undercut the route for an easy pick 6. JJ has to throw it at the top of the hitch and he didn't.
January 5th, 2023 at 6:18 PM ^
"Why did we not go back to the run. We could have run a conservative approach and truck'd these guys."
I don't understand this comment. The conservative approach was the game plan going in - run Edwards between the tackles. It didn't work, wasn't even close...
January 5th, 2023 at 6:29 PM ^
First play of scrimmage was pretty good. I think they could have run that multiple times with a lead blocker. I didn't see that much, though I have not re-watched the game. The running game was working. They kept going off plan (the Philly Special??)
I'm not in a great head space to talk about the game, maybe never would be nice. I was hoping to get a UFR (that really helps but the potential points added is fine for a review. I will take this back if I don't see it as I felt it. We left yards on the field for Edwards.
Clark had a great game.
January 5th, 2023 at 12:45 PM ^
Very informative, identified gross Michigan errors I had not realized were made in the game. Only makes the outcome all the more depressing.
January 5th, 2023 at 6:19 PM ^
Yeah, listening illuminated more issues than I thought they had. It was depressing...
January 6th, 2023 at 10:04 AM ^
Giving up a net -28 points on 4 plays and losing by 6 kinda says it all ....
January 5th, 2023 at 12:52 PM ^
Welcome to the wild world of the January Transfer Window. No, not the football transfer window, the soccer transfer window. This has the feel of the agent trying to boost his fees by amping up a new contract for his client.
January 5th, 2023 at 1:09 PM ^
Wait I'm sorry, did I hear this right? "This cannot be coming from anyone in Harbaugh's circle" - Sam Webb. Seriously? So an agent is what? Going rogue and not serving the interests and at the behest of their client? Come on. Don't insult our intelligence. The chatter and reporting does not mean Harbaugh is going to the NFL, and I still believe (like 70-30) that Harbaugh remains at Michigan, but this hand-waving behavior is incredibly naive.
January 5th, 2023 at 8:09 PM ^
Webb made it clear earlier in the morning as well as in the roundtable that people very close to—or in—the program were telling him that Harbaugh was not the party that was initiating the contacts with the NFL teams. Now it’s possible these people are just plain lying to Sam, but he’s not the kind of person to simply make up sources.
January 5th, 2023 at 10:16 PM ^
Ok but Harbaugh not initiating contacts was not up for debate. It frankly doesn't matter, IMO, who was initiating contact. If Harbaugh gets a call from the Panthers' owner (something that's been reported on by lots of outlets) and has a conversation that does entertain a potential HC offer, then that seems like legitimate mutual interest. Sam seemed to be implying, in this roundtable segment, that the reporting of Harbaugh's interest in the NFL was less than true and wasn't coming from anyone in his circle. Well, if Harbaugh had any real conversations with NFL orgs, again that at all entertained the idea of a HC offer, then how is that not indicate some level of mutual interest? The importance of the initiating party is irrelevant. Also, since Harbaugh now seems to have an agent, I wouldn't be surprised if that person was fielding the initial calls from these NFL orgs and then presenting the options to Harbaugh; that seems like the logical procedure for a client with an agent helping to represent them. In that case, the agent is quite literally the closest person to Harbaugh on the matter.
January 5th, 2023 at 1:16 PM ^
If you look at basically every other game of the season, after the first drive the offense started off slow on the scoreboard. Except PSU. And in every game, except PSU but including OSU, McCarthy did not run until the second--if he ran at all. Michigan could very easily have been down 21-3 OSU before they started getting things going. Just like they DID end up down 21-3 against TCU.
Then, in basically every game, except Illinois, the offense blew the opponent's doors off in the second half. The same was true in this case. Except they were losing 21-3.
Why was it this way? That is a good question. But that is the way it was. TCU just managed to put 7 ups while Michigan was plunging into the line "setting up their second half offense."
In the end, it almost worked. It would have worked. If Michigan had played like they played all year rather than making uncharacteristic mistakes. But the biggest mystery is why they didn't use McCarthy's legs earlier--especially given how well it worked out against PSU. The only time they did it in the first half.
January 5th, 2023 at 3:19 PM ^
Look back at Harbaugh's Niners SB playoffs games as well - fell way behind both Atl in the NFC Title game & Balt in the SB. Looked unprepared & outcoached in both games.
He was saved in one by a superstar performance by Kap, and nearly came back to win the SB with a hero turn by Frank Gore.
But in that SB when SF drove to the BMore 5 behind Gore, they suddenly shot themselves in the foot by throwing to Crab on 2-3-4th downs - and lost.
The next year in the NFC Title game, same damn thing, force feeding Crab from inside the 10- leading to Sherm's famous throat slash when he broke up 4th down.
Long way round to saying I'm no longer confident Harbaugh will ever get to the mountaintop. Enough examples of sabotaging himself for me now. I'm not hoping he leaves, because we could always return to pre-Harbaugh football if he does. But I no longer expect he'll ever win the NC - or SB, for that matter.
January 5th, 2023 at 7:08 PM ^
I was told that JH would never win the B1G East until late Nov. 2022, and that a B1G championship was a pipe dream, and making the 4 team CFP was a hallucination, and doing it in back to back seasons (after 2021 was over) with Hutchinson & Ojabo gone, was never going to happen because Michigan just got lucky in 2021. Now, we have 2021 & 2022 as data points that wiped all this away. Keep saying he’ll never do something, it sure was a big successful prediction(s). Still mired in BPONE?
January 5th, 2023 at 9:00 PM ^
I'm definitely still mired in BPONE, assuming that question was directed at me.
But I also listed several examples of Harbaugh not being prepared for the start of big games, falling far behind quickly. And although in the end Michigan did win in Cbus, the point has been made that we very easily could have been down 21-3 in that game as well.
In fact I'm so far down in the BPONE I'm now prepared to say our finally getting over on osu has more to do with Day than Harbaugh!
There - you can neg that now! I would have if someone had suggested that before the tcu game!
January 5th, 2023 at 3:42 PM ^
Great point about Ohio State. OSU dominated that game up until the moment Michigan converted a 3rd and 9 curl for a 70 yard TD. They could have been 2 scores+ up but weren't, and the tide turned at that moment.
TCU had the big plays in the Fiesta Bowl against a team that had generally prevented them all year--2 pick 6s, and 2 huge plays off straight Cover 0 (one run, one pass). Find it odd you'd go with the shit that you killed Ohio State with.
January 5th, 2023 at 8:16 PM ^
I have been watching UM since 1970, I think I have been able to see every game. This was the best UM team I believe, and the most yakity sak UM game of all time.
I knew when the punt against MSU was going to happen, told my son "THIS ISNT OVER!"
Watching UM v TCU, why run a trick play? Then by the time I calmed down, the worst call ever. I knew they were going to fumble on the half yard line of course after a bad call, the call should have QB sneak not a handoff under center. Told my son that was gonna happen before it happened. This team should have beat TCU by 21 and should have won this Monday. Funny thing happened on the way to the Championship, they didn't do what they did all year.
January 6th, 2023 at 10:28 AM ^
It's a strange feeling being disappointed in a 13-1 season that was the best in at least a generation and then worrying about whether an NFL team will snatch our head coach.
I saw a tall, athletic, muscular young man wearing a Michigan Football t-shirt at my local schoolyard this week. He sported a goatee and faux-hawk hairdo and had the physique and age to be a current player, although none live in my neighborhood (could have been visiting). I smiled and said "It's great to be a Michigan Wolverine! Go Blue!" He grunted and dropped his gaze.
It hurts right now--fans, players, coaches. Everyone rooting for this program feels it. We all know what could have been.
I keep reminding myself that the players who made both key plays and key mistakes against TCU are mostly 19 and 20-year-olds--younger than my daughter, who is an LSA sophomore. The coordinators on offense and defense were in their first year in this combination. This team hadn't played TCU or a Big XII style team. Lots of newness. Mistakes can happen.
I'm trying to hold on to how good this season felt up until New Year's Eve. There's a lot to build upon. It's hard to repeat that kind of success--but all the building blocks are there. I'd still take this season over MSU's, or PSU's, or OSU's, or that of nearly any other program not named TCU or Georgia.
It's still great to be a Michigan Wolverine. Go Blue.
January 6th, 2023 at 1:17 PM ^
BPONE was never dead. It was hiding away and preparing to show up at the worst possible time.
January 6th, 2023 at 8:57 PM ^
Hopefully Seth will explain this, but how did UM give up 263 rushing yards, let alone mostly to their backup running back?
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