Upperclass Argh: Carr's Recruiting Fade Comment Count

Brian

ryan-mallett-michigan 2007: The Disaster

I was scanning some message board or another and came across a statement about the '07 recruiting class and how it was dooming Michigan this year, so I took a look. The conclusion: holy pants, what a disaster. Here they are by position group they'd are or would be playing on this year's team, with available players bolded.

The dossier

QB: Ryan Mallett is doing well… at Arkansas.
RB: Vince Helmuth transferred to Miami(Not That Miami), where he has zero carries. Avery Horn left school and was at Reedley CC in California last year. He's not there this year, but he's not anywhere else, either.
WR: Junior Hemingway is a starter. Zion Babb landed at a JUCO after getting the boot and was supposed to transfer to Colorado but didn't make it. Toney Clemons did make it to CU; he's their second-leading receiver with 18 catches for 219 yards.
OL: David Molk is going to be a four-year starter. Mark Huyge is the first guy off the bench at either tackle position and started all of last year.
TE: Martell Webb is a co-starter with Kevin Koger and has been a four-year contributor but not a star.
DL: Ryan Van Bergen is an above-average Big Ten player. Renaldo Sagesse is a backup who gets spot snaps. Steve Watson moved from TE to DE and is this year's David Cone.
LB: JUCO Austin Panter is out of eligibility. Marell Evans transferred to I-AA Hampton. Brandon Herron is Craig Roh's backup when he's healthy.
DB: James Rogers is a very bad starter. Donovan Warren was a multi-year starter who made a bad decision to leave for the NFL. Michael Williams is buried on the depth chart and headed for a medical hardship because of concussions. Artis Chambers transferred to Ball State but is not on the roster. Troy Woolfolk's ankle exploded.

Total contributors from the redshirt junior/senior class

(starters bolded)

QB: 0.
RB: 0.
WR: 1, Hemingway.
OL: 2, Molk and Huyge.
TE: 1, Webb.

DL: 2, Van Bergen and Sagesse.
LB: 1, Herron.
DB: 1, Rogers. (Woolfolk was a success but would displace Rogers from this list if healthy.)

Of the guys who are gone, exactly two contribute to a I-A team: Mallett and Clemons. That's like six genuinely good football players out of 20 (Mallett, Hemingway, Molk, RVB, Warren, Woolfolk). That is not a successful recruiting class.

odoms_martavious_210x200 2008: The Divide

2008, divided into Rodriguez and Carr sections. JT Floyd and Brandon Smith committed post-RR but had Michigan as their leader for so long before that they are categorized as Carr guys. The two decommits aren't considered, but Wienke is a third-stringer at Iowa and TE Christian Wilson has eight catches in his career at UNC.

The Rodriguez dossier

QB: Justin "Win At All Costs" Feagin got in trouble and is gone.
RB: Michael Shaw is probably the starting tailback if healthy.
WR: Terrence Robinson is a marginal contributor. Martavious Odoms and Roy Roundtree are productive starters when healthy.
OL: Patrick Omameh is starting as a redshirt sophomore. Ricky Barnum is the primary backup at guard and should be a two-year starter.
LB: Taylor Hill transferred two weeks after arriving. He is a productive player at I-AA Youngstown State.

Six of eight guys are still around with five of them looking like successes, pending Barnum moving into the lineup next year.

The Carr dossier

RB: Mike Cox is fourth string behind Shaw and younger folks. Sam McGuffie got concussed three times in his freshman year and transferred to Rice, where he's their leading rusher.
WR: Darryl Stonum is a starter.
TE: Kevin Koger is a co-starter with Webb; Brandon Moore is still on the team but has not seen meaningful snaps.
OL: Dann O'Neill transferred to WMU, where he is a starter. Kurt Wermers transferred to Ball State after flunking out and complaining about how RR was bringing in people who "weren't his kind of crowd." Rocko Khoury is Molk's backup and did okay against Iowa. Elliot Mealer looks like a career backup at guard.
DL: Mike Martin is awesome.
LB: Marcus Witherspoon never enrolled because of a Clearinghouse issue. Kenny Demens just got his first start and looked pretty good. JB Fitzgerald has been buried behind Mouton and then Roh.
DB: Brandon Smith was too slow to play DB, didn't want to play linebacker, transferred to Temple, and promptly washed out. Boubacar Cissoko got pulled from the starting lineup for performance reasons, was kicked off the team, and saw his life spiral out of control. JT Floyd is in the starting lineup by necessity.

Ten of sixteen guys are still around with… uh. Stonum, Koger, and Martin are obvious successes. Demens and Floyd are contributors. Fitzgerald, Cox, Moore, Khoury and Mealer are looking like either career backups or meh senior starters on par with Greg Banks, though in Khoury's case he's locked behind a very good player.

Blame-y Section

This isn't a Yet Another Defense Of Rich Rodriguez post, it's Yet Another Roster Implosion Explanation post. (All right: some of both.)

In retrospect the #12 2007 class was overrated. Vastly so.

At the time the line was about the two hyped five stars and the "high upside" guys behind them who were underrated by the services and so forth and so on. The two five stars mostly lived up to that hype, but Mallett did it at Arkansas because of the coaching transition* and Warren took off for the NFL because he thought he was still that good. Meanwhile, the high upside guys mostly can't play football. Even if everyone from the class was still around Michigan would be suffering. Save Mallett, no one who left would see the field. Maybe Artis Chambers would provide some help in the secondary, but he moved to linebacker before his transfer and washed out at Ball State—it's hard to see him displacing Kovacs.

It should have been obvious that recruiting was going in the toilet when Michigan made two desperate reaches at linebacker, grabbing a JUCO guy and a two-star with one other offer(Temple), then made a desperate reach to get a second offensive lineman in the class. But three different groups are proving that subscription models can work on the internet because hope is impervious to reason.

Michigan bounced back in 2008, but a lot of that was the late Rodriguez additions. One man's listing of the top ten recruits in that class, Rodriguez guys bolded:

  1. Mike Martin
  2. Patrick Omameh
  3. Roy Roundtree
  4. Martavious Odoms
  5. Kevin Koger
  6. Michael Shaw
  7. Darryl Stonum
  8. Kenny Demens
  9. Ricky Barnum
  10. Rocko Khoury

RR's strike rate on 2008 recruits was considerably higher than Carr's, as Michigan seemed like a magnet for overrated guys. Witherspoon, Cissoko, Smith, O'Neill, McGuffie, Fitzgerald, Moore, and Stonum have all under-performed relative to expectations, with only Martin exceeding them. You can make a case that coaching has something to do with it but I believe evaluations are a major factor. From time to time a guy who knows an NFL scout relays his impressions (this year's theme: "Michigan has nothing on defense except for Martin. Who is this Rogers guy?") and from day one this guy said O'Neill was way too stiff and would not work out. Similarly, it's hard to imagine just what position Brandon Smith was going to play in the Big Ten.

Class of 2008 departures who might see the field this year are… well… Cissoko? Definite nos: Wermers, O'Neill, Feagin. Very probable nos: Hill (OLB; would not beat out Mouton or Roh), Witherspoon (could not find the field at Rutgers and washed out), and Smith (like Cam Gordon except worse).

So. Michigan's 2007 class was a disaster and attrition from it did not matter save Warren's early NFL entry. The two thirds of Michigan's 2008 class acquired by Carr was appreciably better but still not so good; Rodriguez's late additions brought it up to something approximating an average Michigan recruiting class when it comes to on-field success.

(By the way: Rodriguez's second class is looking divergent as hell. Massive nuclear strikes at QB and OL, yet another disaster of a DB class—Witty, Emilien, and Turner are all gone and Mike Jones is a linebacker.)

Comments

Glutton

October 27th, 2010 at 1:56 PM ^

McGuffie is also Rice's leading receiver.  Sounds more impressive than the stats reveal, at roughly 90 yards total offense/game.  I like him though, and wish him the best.

Cosmic Blue

October 27th, 2010 at 2:04 PM ^

Bands that are worn the wrist are for sweating. Most football players, tennis players, etc. will also wear tight bands around their elbows because with repeated stress the tendons of the elbow will slowly and painfully begin to pull away from the bone of the elbow. This is where the pain in your elbow originates.

With continued, repetitive use of the elbow the tendon-bone connection weakens and the pain in your elbow steadily increases. By placing continual pressure on the tendons that connect the Flexor and the Extensor muscles to the Medial and Lateral Epicondyles the tension at the point of connection to the bone is significantly reduced.

los barcos

October 27th, 2010 at 2:07 PM ^

I don’t think you can shrug off coaching as easily as you’ve done here…this team underwent a massive offensive change along with no consistency at defense for 3 years.

The problem with these type of posts is they are all big exercises in “what ifs” and its very hard to judge, 2-3 years later, where some of these players would be in a pro-style offense, 4-3 defense, or with a team that didn’t explode with an obvious and drastic culture change.  Some players might have thrived under the Lloyd carr “grandfatherly” approach and at the same time others may not have done so well to the “in-your-face” intense rich rod approach. Not saying either is wrong, but it’s a product of the vast change that you cant really quantify.

blueheron

October 27th, 2010 at 2:36 PM ^

I'm more open to arguments about culture (excepting the ones involving Justin "Mr. Plow" Boren) than I am about coaching (excepting drop-back passers and receivers who are deep threats).  I don't think the change mattered for most positions.

At a higher level, 'blog posts like this are still necessary in a world where idiots are calling WDFN (or wherever) and wondering why RichRod couldn't work with 4-star offensive lineman Justin Schifano (http://rivals.yahoo.com/michigan/football/recruiting/player-Justin-Schi…) from the '05 class.  (In case anyone misses the joke, Justin quit football early.  He took the place of someone who could possibly have contributed in '08 and '09.)  "HE WAS OFFERED BY MIAMI AND PENN STATE!  WHAT IS WRONG WITH RODRIGUEZ?"

To put it another way, plenty of RichRod's critics *are* going to town and blaming him precisely because the '07 class had a high ranking.  They're doing plenty of "whatiffing."  This post could be viewed as a counterweight.

los barcos

October 27th, 2010 at 2:48 PM ^

I guess I am curious to know why you would be so quick to blow off the coaching argument. 

 

Look at our own team: the discourse is that greg frey and bruce tall are our best coaches because of what they’ve done with the two lines.  Okay.  So should bruce tall, for example, get the credit for developing a player like Mike Martin?  Or was Mike Martin a beast regardless and would be equally as good under any coach? 

 

If it’s the former, you would have to concede that coaching plays a huge part of player development.  Under that scenario, a post like this is basically obviated by the fact that Lloyd and his assistants (save fred Jackson) aren’t around to coach their recruits.

 

If it’s the latter then you could make the argument that these players are a product of a dropoff in recruiting.  But, if this were true, when would coaching play any role?

 

Anyways, my point I made in the OP was this seems to be an oversimplification.  Brian presupposes in his post that the exact same scenario would play out regardless of the coach, and I don’t think you can do that here.  Just IMO.

blueheron

October 27th, 2010 at 3:02 PM ^

Clarification: When I mentioned coaching I was thinking more about the system change than player development, which I think is more interesting.  I think Mike Martin would be a beast in any system (in the same way that Jake Long would thrive in SMASHMOUTH or zone/whatever), but I'm sure the quality of coaching matters, too.

bouje

October 27th, 2010 at 4:12 PM ^

is completely different than covering people and tackling people under Carr.

 

Good grief man.  Carr screwed the pooch in recruiting in his last few years mostly on:

ALL OF DEFENSE and the OL. 

 

There's no debating that.

los barcos

October 27th, 2010 at 4:19 PM ^

We actually do have a different defensive system under RR than we had under Lloyd (and a different system this year versus last year versus the year before, along with different coaches).

 

I guess you missed the entire point of everything I said so I will spell it for you annoyingly:

c-o-a-c-h-i-n-g   i-s    p-r-o-b-a-b-l-y   t-h-e   g-r-e-a-t-e-s-t   f-a-c-t-o-r   i-n   p-l-a-y-e-r    d-e-v-e-l-o-p-m-e-n-t   s-o    h-o-w    c-a-n    w-e   m-a-k-e    a-n-y  s-w-e-e-p-i-n-g  g-e-n-e-r-a-l-i-z-a-t-i-o-n-s   a-b-o-u-t    r-e-c-r-u-i-t-s   t-h-a-t    L-l-o-y-d   r-e-c-r-u-i-t-e-d   b-u-t   d-i-d   n-o-t    c-o-a-c-h

bouje

October 27th, 2010 at 4:30 PM ^

LC was the greatest coach ever in the history of anything. 

 

THE DIFFERENCE BEING THAT NONE OF THESE FUCKING KIDS THAT LC RECRUITED ARE DOING JACK SHIT ANYWHERE ELSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

I hate you so much.

mejunglechop

October 27th, 2010 at 6:55 PM ^

Most these kids aren't doing anything because they've washed out of football entirely, and that's not necessarily because they didn't have potential. And if these kids were so obviously talentless, why did so many of them have high profile offers?

The Squid

October 27th, 2010 at 4:20 PM ^

Even if you accept the (IMO dubious) notion that a coaching system is a major component of player success and failure, note that with the sole exception of Ryan Mallett none of the kids who left are succeeding in other non-RR systems.

blueheron

October 27th, 2010 at 5:30 PM ^

*** EDIT: My late addition bumped some posts "rightward."  This part of the thread looks confusing. ***

Howdy.  Looking back the last paragraph of my original post:

- - -

To put it another way, plenty of RichRod's critics *are* going to town and blaming him precisely because the '07 class had a high ranking.  They're doing plenty of "whatiffing."  This post could be viewed as a counterweight.

- - -

As you noted in your earlier post, filtering the effects of coaching, culture, and system changes might be difficult.  That's fair.  But, outside this 'blog I hear "Lloyd's last few recruiting classes got good ratings so RichRod must suck" more often than I hear "Many of the upperclass players may have been overrated as high school seniors, so he might need time to restock the pond."  To put it another way, Lloyd gets the benefit of the doubt more often than RichRod on a murky subject.  If it were up to me we'd all limit discussion on an issue where solid conclusions are difficult to reach.

Why does this matter?  It's hard to coach in a $hitstorm.  At the extreme I don't think it would be a reach to say that RichRod has been somewhat handicapped while recruiting because of all the negativity.  Maybe we should do what we can to keep that down?  Ideally he'd be allowed to sink or swim based on his abilities as a coach.  Unrealistic, I realize ...

UMSwoosh

October 27th, 2010 at 2:06 PM ^

10. Michigan
Fans didn't care much for the Wolverines' 2006 class, but the 2007 class should please the masses. WR Junior Hemingway (Conway, S.C.) does not get enough credit for his abilities -- watch out for him. QB Ryan Mallett (Texarkana, Texas/Texas) might have the most upside of any quarterback Michigan has had during Lloyd Carr's days in Ann Arbor, including his days as an assistant. Where are the cornerbacks, though?

Blue Bunny Friday

October 27th, 2010 at 2:53 PM ^

He would obviously be an upgrade over what's out there now, but "very good B10 player" is a stretch.

In 2009 Woolfolk was ninth on the team with 46 tackles and had only 1 PBU. Switching positions had something to do with that, but JT Floyd has 60 tackles so far this year.

I hope he comes back in the best shape of his life next year and becomes very good. I don't think he's been at that level yet.

UMaD

October 27th, 2010 at 2:58 PM ^

I don't think tackles is a very good measure of a CB.  Deon Sanders never had many tackles, because he was too busy covering people... but your point might be legit about Woolfolk anyway.

I'm not going to strongly argue that Woolfolk is very good, I'll just say that some people think Woolfolk was a very good CB as a junior.  Most people think Floyd is well below average, but he's still only a sophomore.

The Squid

October 27th, 2010 at 3:04 PM ^

Stats like that are a poor way to measure a CB. For example, good corners may have fewer PBUs because no one will throw it anywhere near them. JT Floyd makes a lot of tackles because he has to make a lot of tackles - linebackers and safeties aren't making tackles and the defense can't get of the field, resulting in more plays for the opposition offense.

Blue Bunny Friday

October 27th, 2010 at 3:20 PM ^

I am also aware that Woolfolk had plenty of passes thrown his direction when Warren was the CB on the other side of the field. The inverse of DW is James Rogers.

Those stats included his time at safety. He has not been a very good B10 player and it would take significant improvement for him to get there. Before he got hurt he was not supposed to be a lock-down corner, he was simply expected to be more or less B10 average. (B10 avg. >> the current secondary)

caup

October 27th, 2010 at 2:56 PM ^

a "very good B10 player"?

Sure, he'll start for our putrid defense next year.

But name one game where he was great.

His most significant play to date was a spectacularly blown easy tackle in OT.

If Troy could miss one more year he'd be an All-American around here.

EDIT: Ah, Bunny beat me to the punch!

Rashman

October 27th, 2010 at 2:08 PM ^

Did you forget a footnote on this?

but Mallett did it at Arkansas because of the coaching transition*

I've always heard conflicting reports on this; many have said that Mallett was "homesick" and was as good as gone once Mustain transferred from Arkansas regardless of who was coaching at Michigan.  I saw the asterisk and was hoping for your take on this.

UMSwoosh

October 27th, 2010 at 2:09 PM ^

10. Michigan
Fans didn't care much for the Wolverines' 2006 class, but the 2007 class should please the masses. WR Junior Hemingway (Conway, S.C.) does not get enough credit for his abilities -- watch out for him. QB Ryan Mallett (Texarkana, Texas/Texas) might have the most upside of any quarterback Michigan has had during Lloyd Carr's days in Ann Arbor, including his days as an assistant. Where are the cornerbacks, though?

BornInAA

October 27th, 2010 at 2:11 PM ^

it's like a void (black hole) draining life from your program. 

This season I believe we are close to the event horizon - about a burst out at any time -with our dilithium powered drive!

This will be triggered with a big upset over UW or OSU this season and a good bowl game.

bluebyyou

October 27th, 2010 at 2:15 PM ^

I'm trying not to defend Carr, and I am not really sure anyone is blaming him, but at first blush, a #12 ranked recruiting class should be pretty good.  Sometimes things just don't work out, which in this case was the hand we were dealt.

Not trying to restate the obvious here, but had Carr hung around Mallett, presumably (again subject to speculation), would have had us set at that position for another three years, and Manningham and Arrington might have also hung around one more year (thought they left as juniors).  Once RichRod came in, three major skill players jumped ship, along with traitor Boren, who we despise, but was and is a very solid O lineman, although we choke to admit it. 

Figuring a five year window with red shirts, if you can get six or seven solid players from every class, you are doing fine, at least as I see it. 

MH20

October 27th, 2010 at 2:25 PM ^

Not trying to restate the obvious here, but had Carr hung around Mallett, presumably (again subject to speculation), would have had us set at that position for another three years, and Manningham and Arrington might have also hung around one more year (thought they left as juniors).  Once RichRod came in, three major skill players jumped ship, along with traitor Boren, who we despise, but was and is a very solid O lineman, although we choke to admit it.

That is one giant ball of speculation, and you have zero basis for any of the assumptions you are making.

DCBlue

October 27th, 2010 at 2:45 PM ^

Carr had a proven track record of challenging players who were underperforming or were leaning toward leaving the program and getting them to stay and perform.  Brady and Braylon come to mind immediately.  What I'd like to see is a post analyzing that, instead of the constant bitching and blaming LC for all Michigan's woes.  It's so ND -- like the whole "Willingham is to blame for everything" meme.  Some people love RR's attitude of "only talking about players who are at Michigan."  What I'd like to know is how much he tried to get them to actually stay and contribute in A2.  Maybe a whole hell of a lot.  Maybe not.  I'm just really sick of all the Carr blaming.  Dude lost 40 games in 13 years. 23 games in the Big Ten.  So. Damn. Tired. Of. People. Piling. On. Carr.

And yes, I realize I'm being hyper-sensitive.  But still.

TheMadGrasser

October 27th, 2010 at 3:08 PM ^

He did a good job according to the rankings. Sometimes things just don't work out. He never had problems in the past and always had top 20 recruiting classes. I think there's a lot more to it than, "Lloyd screwed us". Just my opinion though.

bluebyyou

October 27th, 2010 at 3:02 PM ^

Really?  This is an exercise in speculation....  but I believe there is sound basis behind the speculation.

Did you notice a small difference between RichRod's O and Carr's?  Seems like a lot of people did and from my perspective, they made their decisions accordingly.

When Rodriguez was hired, the name of the game changed completely.  Was Mallett a pro-style QB or was he not?  Would Manningham have wanted to spend his senior year with two so-so at best QB's who were never seen to be starters and with a weak O line on top of that? Perfect time to leave...they had just beaten Florida in dramatic fashion.

I'd be very curious to see your analysis.

TheMadGrasser

October 27th, 2010 at 3:04 PM ^

Is that speculation? Mallet seems to be doing fine, right? And there would have been a much better chance for MM and Arrington to stay another year if Carr had stayed. The guy is purely giving his opinion. Why do we have to jump all over him about it?

bouje

October 27th, 2010 at 3:10 PM ^

Ryan mallet was a douchebag of epic proportions. His teammates hated him, Lloyd threw transfer papers at him and as soon as Mitch mustain left Arkansas he went back home.
<br>
<br>Nothing would have made RM stay. Nothing.

bouje

October 27th, 2010 at 3:37 PM ^

I also know a girl who dated him while he was here. She said that he was an arrogant asshole who was very homesick and hated Michigan.
<br>
<br>Then there were the dumped of LC throwing xfer papers at him and MM leaving arkansas and then the new coach hire it was all too convenient of an excuse to get out and if I remember right he even tried to get the year of ineligibility waived