[Patrick Barron]

Let's Start Again: Probably Less Nominal Power Forward Comment Count

Brian August 20th, 2019 at 11:26 AM

Your slightly-dated, already-posted positions: point guard, shooting guard, small forward and center.

Aaand the basketball season aftermath posts get done by late August. Woo! Been a weird summer!

ROSTER

Brandon Johns(So.): Bouncy gent spent most of last year as a backup 5, which he is not. Lost defensively both there and after a move back to the 4, through no fault of his own.

Isaiah Livers(Jr.): Swiss-army-knife sixth man now pressed into third banana role. Great shooter; difficulty getting to the rim. Superior defender.

Colin Castleton(So.): Would give Michigan a Reuvers-Happ look if he played at the same time as Teske. Potentially viable for up to ten minutes per game?

I HAVE SOME QUESTIONS

How are we supposed to calibrate Johns expectations?

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[Campredon]

Oh God, I have no idea. His freshman year was wasted as Michigan really tried to make him a backup center. This worked well exactly once. When forced into duty against Indiana Johns was 4/5 from the floor with 8 rebounds, 3 of them offensive, and a block on Juwan Morgan. That's doing work in 13 minutes; it is no coincidence that work came against Morgan, who is 6'7" tops. Juwan Morgan is 6'2". In three inch heels. Juwan Morgan is a hobbit.

I digress. Johns's other extended Big Ten outing as a center was against Iowa. With Teske in foul trouble Johns was sent out to check Iowa's collection of albino Ents; he was repeatedly dunked on due to sheer lack of size. Michigan gave up on the Johns-is-a-center project around then, but the damage was done. His next extended playing time came in the weird guys game against MSU. Johns gave up a couple of buckets because he didn't know what he was supposed to do on defense. He had no offensive impact for the same reason.

Normally a touted prospect who'd provided so little as a freshman would be in line for a severe expectations downgrade. The position flip-flopping, which was more about Austin Davis than any deficiencies Johns showed as a potential four, complicates the picture here.

[After THE JUMP: breakout potential, also… Castleton?]

Presumably now locked in as a full-time four, Johns has breakout potential. He's the most athletic guy on the roster now that Charles Matthews graduated…

…unless it's Castleton, discussed below. He's also executed the obligatory Hello I Am Ripped picture during the most recent Camp Sanderson:

image

But the coaches are talking about Johns in If terms, not When:

“I think going into this year, not that he has to have a D.J. Wilson type of year, but he needs to be trending in that direction,” Washington said. “I think for Brandon it's just him understanding that he doesn't have to live up to any expectations. He just has to be the best version of him.”

Adding Howard has to help various Michigan bigs; Johns is the best-positioned physically to take advantage of that at the four. But until we know, we just don't know.

Can Castleton actually play this spot?

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Castleton: long [Patrick Barron]

For starters minutes, no. Even aside from questions about his ability to function at the spot, Michigan is probably at its best if Teske is unleashed defensively from minute one, with the commensurate reduction in minutes because sometimes he's going to get called for early fouls. Castleton is going to get 10-15 minutes as the backup 5 and is not going to get another 25-30 minutes at the four, because of physics.

In short bursts, yeah, sure. Castleton's combination of giant wingspan and vert made him only the seventh guy in the Camp Sanderson era to put up a 12-foot vertical jump:

(Jon Horford? Really?)

That'll give Castleton some ability to play off on the perimeter without losing the ability to contest and help him when he inevitably gets switched onto some short guys. There are going to be plenty of matchups in which his lateral agility is going to be just fine. And as Wisconsin proved last year, there's something to be said for having a lethal helpside defender playing the 4.

As with Johns it's hard to project what his impact will be offensively. Castleton hit 38% of his threes his senior year in high school and could function as a GRIII-esque corner shooter and dive man. That would mean the 4 is almost exclusively absorbing shots, not creating them. As the rest of this series has detailed, the lack of creators at every spot outside PG threatens to heap an untenable burden on Zavier Simpson.

How does this spot change under Howard?

One dollar Michigan power forwards post up now. Depending on the matchup the quantity of posting could vary from occasional to frequent, but it's going to be in their toolkit and Michigan will use it. These posts have repeatedly addressed the lack of shot creation it appears Michigan's going to suffer through next year; post-ups do indeed create shots. Usually not great ones, but beggars can't be choosers.

Teske's flashed some passing ability so I wonder if we might see some high-low action similar to what Minnesota ran last year when Jordan Morgan and a center were on the floor at the same time. No Minnesota bigs were shooters, so the Gopher action ended up being fairly predictable. All of Michigan's guys are at least hypothetically competent shooters, which will open some things up.

The other potentially major change is how Howard views rebounding, particularly offensive. Michigan 4s have not often had the green light to hunt OREBs over the past decade. When John Gasaway wanted to name a stat for teams that are somewhat inexplicably worse at DREBs than OREBs he named it the "Inverse Michigan Factor" because of the consistency with which Michigan's defensive rebounding outperformed its offensive rebounding under Beilein.

If Howard is unable to replicate Beilein's astounding turnover aversion—and the history of basketball suggests he will be unable—then the only way to make up the hit to shot volume will be with more second chances. That would give an edge to run/jump guys like Johns over Livers, at least insofar as playing time at the 4 goes.

Defensively it shouldn't be too different. To some extent defense is defense.

OUTLOOK

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

There are two ways this can go well. One is that Johns comes through. The other is that a couple guys at the two and three do and Livers can play most of his minutes here.

This preview has its money on Johns based on a couple of admittedly speculative assumptions. One is that Howard will prefer more burly lineups than Beilein did. Maximum burl lineups all include Johns. The second is that Johns will have a breakout because of positional certainty and the freshman-to-sophomore leap a lot of players make.

But we've got a sophomore who did almost nothing as a freshman and was a good-but-not-great recruit coming out of high school. He's got the widest performance range of anyone on the roster.

Comments

Booted Blue in PA

August 20th, 2019 at 11:44 AM ^

Looking forward to football before thinking much more about the hard court.  Yet its odd, with Coach B, I came to expect a team that would work hard and improve as the season went on.  His teams were generally playing their best ball by the time the Big 10 Tournament rolled around.  

Now its a big unknown, and that's ok.  November will be here soon enough.

 

GO BLUE

SDCran

August 20th, 2019 at 12:28 PM ^

Johns' FR year was pretty much the same as DJ Wilson's.  DJ's emergence came as a big surprise to most folks.  Here is hoping that we see the same thing out of Johns.   

(but, yes, he just needs to be the best version of himself and not look at anyone else's career for his own expectations :) )

Mr Miggle

August 20th, 2019 at 2:11 PM ^

Johns' freshman year was very similar to DJ Wilson's second season, as a redshirt freshman. Maybe that was the main reason Wilson's breakout came as such a surprise.

They're similar players in the level of potential. Johns just needs to put things together and play with confidence.

 

spiff

August 20th, 2019 at 12:29 PM ^

Let me be clear by saying in no way am I suggesting that the staff would substitute their analysis for this, or anything like that.

If you were in Coach Howard's shoes would you read these previews? They are going to review all the film from last year of course, and are likely to come to most of the same conclusions.

But if I had access to thoughtful, nuanced views on my new team from someone who watched most/all games last year I think I would find it useful.

Even if you gleaned one insight that maybe you missed, that would be worth the few minutes spent on them I think.

Great work on these as always Brian, even if Juwan doesn't say it! :)

Joby

August 20th, 2019 at 1:57 PM ^

Totally agree. The level of detailed insight provided here reminds me of when well-informed patients go see their doctors. Clearly the patients don’t have the same knowledge base, but they may be able to offer valuable insights and perspectives, and occasionally patients can teach docs a few things.

 

I do disagree somewhat with the “sometimes defense is defense” statement. Beilein teams of more recent vintage eschewed OREBs for the DETROIT principle (Don’t Even Try Running Out In Transition). M was #1 in transition D in 2018 and top 10 in 2019. OREBs might create more shot opportunities, but it’s debatable whether they would be enough to offset the opponent shots created by a less effective transition D.

 

maquih

August 20th, 2019 at 9:50 PM ^

There is no way in hell Howard even has time to read these.  He also has a staff of lifelong professional basketball coaches doing this work day in and day out not only in the film room but on the floor with the kids themselves.  To the extent the writers here at mgoblog or umhoops have excellent insights that are wonderful for us mortals to read, it has zero contribution to the coaching staff.

njvictor

August 20th, 2019 at 12:40 PM ^

I honestly have no idea what to expect from Johns this year. He looked so lost this past season that I'm not even sure like what his play style is. I know he was a runny jumpy guy who could occasionally shoot 3s in high school, but I'm still not sure what he's gonna be in college

Kevin14

August 20th, 2019 at 1:05 PM ^

People sleep on Livers athleticism.  IMO, he's definitely the most athletic player on the team, until Johns does something to show otherwise. 

True Blue Grit

August 20th, 2019 at 1:05 PM ^

The Camp Sanderson picture is awesome.  If Johns can be a rebounding machine and his scoring is a bit behind, I'll take that.  With his athleticism, he's going to make things happen.  I'm optimistic about him taking a huge leap this year.  

lsjtre

August 20th, 2019 at 1:23 PM ^

Here's hoping for another summer like this one and a football season that runs well into basketball season.  The harder it is for the blog to keep up usually the better the teams are doing and the longer they're lasting in the post season.  Here's to that at least!

username03

August 20th, 2019 at 1:50 PM ^

In the recent past, I'd say at least 5 years, there have been very few basketball teams that have been successful playing two bigs for any significant period of time. This includes both college and the pros. Could someone explain to me why this board is continually so eager to head down this road?

Michigan4Life

August 20th, 2019 at 2:31 PM ^

BeCaUsE oLd ScHoOl BaSkEtBaLl WaS bEtTeR iN tHeIr DaYs!
 

Other than that, I don't know because NBA really don't play two bigs on one floor unless one is Jaren Jackson Jr who can play both PF and C. NCAA is rare but those tends to get exposed by stretch 4 or skilled 4 who can put the ball on the floor.

TrueBlue2003

August 20th, 2019 at 3:25 PM ^

You can do it if one of your "bigs" is a switch everything guy that can guard the perimeter.  Noah could do that.  DJ Wilson could do that.  Livers can do it. They're wing defenders with height (except Livers). Teske, eh not a trainwreck on the perimeter but not ideal (which is ideally what you get from your 5).  Castleton....doubt it, but myabe!

ST3

August 20th, 2019 at 3:18 PM ^

You know what is better than a 6’ 4” Zack Novak playing the 4? A 6’ 10” Zack Novak playing the 4. 

Playing 2 non-traditional bigs breaks the 2-big paradigm. If Castleton can hit the three, that puts other teams in “pick your poison” position. Put your big on Teske and Castleton posts up with a 3-4 inch height advantage. Put your big on Castleton and Teske gets an easy look from 3 over a 6’ 7” guy.

Defensively, you’ve got 4 long arms for your opponents to shoot over.

That’s the mouth-watering potential of playing 2 bigs together. Think of KD and a healthy Boogie. The Sacramento teams with Vlade and C-Webb were a joy to watch. Even the Grizz with Gasol and Randolph brought something unique to the party.

All that said, yeah, you need guards to win in March/April.

TrueBlue2003

August 20th, 2019 at 3:33 PM ^

A lot of teams play two "bigs" if at least one is non-traditional.  Like DJ Wilson and Moe Wagner.

The "mouth-watering" bigs in todays game can defend all positions and stretch the floor from the outside.  And really, those aren't "bigs" as much as tall wings.

More teams would play two non-traditional bigs if they were more abundant but a guy that plays like a wing on offense and defense and is tall is very rare.  That's why the NBA covets them so much.

The reason Michigan probably won't play Teske and Castleton is that I doubt even one of them can play perimeter defense well enough to have them both on the floor (and jury is still out on whether EITHER of them can shoot well enough).  They are still in the traditional big mold, not the modern stretch big mold.

TrueBlue2003

August 20th, 2019 at 3:45 PM ^

I had misread the post previously about non-traditional bigs.  I've EDITED my response and that should explain it.

To the other guys point, I don't think an NBA team would play Randolph and Gasol together in the modern game.  KD is a wing so that's why he can play with a more traditional big. C-Webb developed a shot and could guard multiple positions so he was a stretch four as well.

rice4114

August 20th, 2019 at 6:08 PM ^

Are we talking bigs as in size or back to the basket post players? Couldnt Castleton play like DJ Wilson if coached properly? Would he still be a big? Is Kevin Durant a big but Charles Barkley isnt? 

I think you can be of any height these days and learn a winglike skillset. Outside of Teske our players could all be wings with proper development. 

TrueBlue2003

August 21st, 2019 at 12:29 AM ^

Castleton's ability to play like DJ Wilson is largely dependent on his ability to defend guards and wing players after switches.  Wilson did it well.  For Castleton...dunno.  We'll see. 

But that's one of the toughest things to coach in basketball. You can teach a guy to mask some weaknesses there but doing it well is highly dependent on lateral quickness which is hard to coach.

Michigan4Life

August 21st, 2019 at 12:38 AM ^

But Wilson isn't a natural big though. Wilson is a wing player who happen to be tall while Castleton is a big who can allegedly shoot but he isn't a wing player.

I'm very skeptical that Castleton can play the PF position because I don't think he's mobile enough to switch on defense against smaller players who will certainly abuse him defensively.

Michigan4Life

August 21st, 2019 at 12:45 AM ^

Castleon couldn't play like DJ Wilson. He's pretty athletic for his size but not athletic enough to be able to switch on defense. DJ Wilson is a rare blend of length, athleticism, shooting and shot blocking to be able to switch between 4 and 5.

It's fine to have a winglike skillet which is a requirement for any player but it's different to have the athleticism to switch on defense because that's where their position will be determined.

Michigan4Life

August 21st, 2019 at 12:43 AM ^

Vlade/C-Webb is ancient history. Basketball has changed a lot since then. Gasol/Randolph pairing are the exception to the rule, not the norm.

4 long arms to shoot over sounds appealing until you see team picking on either of them in PnR turning into Iso where guards can blow them by with ease. That's a big reason why you don't see two bigs on the floor. Hell, Steph Curry basically made traditional big nearly obsolete with his shooting and ball handling when he entered the NBA

ST3

August 20th, 2019 at 2:09 PM ^

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/brandon-johnsjr-1.html

Johns played all of 115 minutes last year, so not even three full games worth. Still, his numbers give a hint of what we have. He finished with 10.1 rebounds per 40 minutes and 7.7 points per 40 minutes. Let's say he plays 20 MPG this season. I'd expect some improvement from freshman to sophomore year. So I'm going to pencil in 8 ppg and 6 rpg, not bad for a 5th banana.

outsidethebox

August 20th, 2019 at 3:02 PM ^

Mr. Johns has good physical talent. Last year was, however, a catch-up-and-learn time for him regarding how to (really) play the game. His HS tape shows a player who seldom boxed out for rebounds, played inattentive "defense" and did whatever he wanted on offense...he was poorly coached. He, now, is playing with kids who are mostly at or above his talent level. He is young-we will see. 

TrueBlue2003

August 20th, 2019 at 3:22 PM ^

Jumping ability does almost nothing for your shot blocking ability on the guy you're guarding unless you're willing to more than offset the shot blocking with too often getting pump faked and driven past.

Castleton's height will allow him play off guys a little bit but what allowed Wisconsin to play the Happ/Reuvers combo is Happ's ability to stay in front of guys (see: Iggy Brazdiekis crumpling to the ground repeatedly after failing to get around him).  At an athletic 6'8, Happ could do that.  Very skeptical Castleton has the lateral quickness to do it with a 6'11 frame.  We'll see.

If Caslteton is playing meaningful minutes at the four with the existence of Livers and Johns, that portends alarming things about Johns.

Blue Middle

August 20th, 2019 at 5:52 PM ^

Johns may have the biggest impact on UM's success this season.  If he can be a good-to-very-good player, then we can roll the line-up of Z, Livers, Wagner, Johns, and Teske.  That could be a lethal juggernaut of a starting line-up.  Think about it:

  • Plus defenders at every position
  • Plenty of length
  • Shooting from the 2, 3, and 5 spots
  • Rebounding from everywhere
  • Castleton backing-up the 4 and 5
  • An army of smaller guys on the bench to bring different looks

IF Livers can play the two and Johns is ready at the 4...wow.  This could be a very special season.

If Johns is not ready, then we're bringing the winner from the 2-guard sweepstakes into the line-up and pushing Livers to the 4.  That still sounds good, but it's not the intimidating death star that having Livers, Wagner, Johns, and Teske on the floor together could be.

Maybe I'm just dreaming.

OkemosBlue

August 20th, 2019 at 8:28 PM ^

As rightly stated by many, including Brian, we have little idea what next season will bring.  Teske is an old-fashioned center with modest--but not nonexistent--shooting chops last year, and there's little doubt (at least in my enfeebled mind) that if Juwan Howard wants to bring in the five stars, then he's probably going to change the style of play to a more run-and-gun, pro style as opposed to the quintessential college chess master approach of Beilein.  That means athletic players who can shoot for the most part even if Howard says the team will rely on Teske heavily.  Michigan has a lot of athletic bigs, albeit unproven except for Livers.  If Castleton has put on twenty pounds of muscle (I assume he hasn't because we didn't see a picture of it) or even a ten pounds, I could see him playing a lot with Livers and Johns and Wagner simultaneously in the pre-Big Ten.  If they work well together (who knows?), then they could see significant minutes in the Big Ten season too.  Teske will play a lot, assuming he can keep out of foul trouble, and, if he's improved his shot too . . . . !

 

michymich

August 21st, 2019 at 2:13 AM ^

Here is what I would do with the Bigs.

 

Teske and Castleton at the #5

Johns #4

Livers #3

 

I just don't love UM right now offensively. I think Johns (potentially) and Livers give UM the most scoring potential. Johns looks a lot like a Blake Griffin type guy from Oklahoma. Not in production but style. You could have him play more like Mo Taylor around the rim.

 

Livers may struggle at the #3 but he would be a matchup issue down low for most teams. I am a big fan. He has really shown me something. I just am a little concerned with how the points are going to come from on this team with Simpson on the floor unless Wagner is the 2nd coming of Glen Rice. UM is going to have to hit the glass hard this year.

One of DDJ, Wagner or Nunez is going to have to breakout.