[Patrick Barron]

I Have Emerged Steaming From The Ancient Ice Comment Count

Brian November 13th, 2023 at 11:57 AM

11/11/2023 – Michigan 24, Penn State 15 – 10-0, 7-0 Big Ten

Everyone I have talked to in the last two weeks has been furious. I have also been furious, of course, but other people have been so furious that I—me, myself—have been attempting to calm people down. I have asserted that the Big Ten would not wantonly screw Michigan out of a football game with refereeing; that maybe the guy who sounds like he's running a Taliban cell should take a step back; that leaving the Big Ten is an absurd—

…actually, no wait, I was just on WTKA asserting that leaving the Big Ten was now an eventual likelihood. I, too, have been overrun with the madness everyone else has been. And I'm just a guy on the internet.

Can you imagine being actually on the team swept up in all of this? For three weeks you've had various take-merchants descend upon this like so many deeply ignorant paratroopers. A select, deficient subset of these folks have asserted that Michigan shouldn't get to play in the CoFoPoff. I know what it's like to be a fan of this team and hear these things. I want to sink my incisors into Stephen A Smith's neck and raise his decapitated head to the skies as a trophy. How does Trevor Keegan feel, and how on God's green earth does he sit down in a stance before every play and not get a penalty for death-murder?

I do not know. 

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There's a great Andy Staples article in the aftermath of the 2017 Michigan-Penn State game—a 42-17 PSU demolition at the hands of Joe Moorhead and Saquon Barkley—that goes into great detail about the opening play. That was a 69-yard Barkley touchdown where Barkley took a direct snap and used Trace McSorley as a running back. As far as gambits went it was relatively short-lived; the next year Michigan stomped all of the inverse mesh points. But it had a thunderous debut, and I remember thinking Joe Moorhead was pretty good at his job specifically because of one thing:

The only detail remaining was to leave a crease for Barkley to escape through when he pulled the ball back from McSorley’s belly. That was achieved by having left tackle Ryan Bates pass set instead of run block. That drew defensive end Rashan Gary on an upfield rush and opened a seam to the left for Barkley.

At the time I was the person charting all of Rashan Gary's snaps and frequently complaining that Gary's desire to rush the passer—to demonstrate why he was the #1 recruit in America—frequently saw him shoot 10 yards upfield to the detriment of the Michigan defense. Moorhead saw that, too, and stuck a dagger in Michigan's belly on the first play. A chagrined Gary dialed it back.

What if the opposition was completely incapable of dialing it back? Things looked bad for Michigan after two drives because whoever lined up against Karsen Barnhart was instantly past him. Sherrone Moore adjusted. He literally stopped calling dropback passes and eventually stopped calling passes, period. Faced with third and ten he ran a crack sweep with his quarterback; faced with third and eleven he shot Donovan Edwards out the backside of a play where not one but two Penn State players were recklessly headed for the quarterback.

Nothing changed for Penn State. Not one thing. Michigan finally closed the door immediately after a Penn State four-and-out turnover on downs when Robinson, who so many centuries ago was marauding through the Michigan backfield, got blown out of a gap by trying to get upfield:

That is how Michigan called game.

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You could hear the emotion pouring off Sherrone Moore in his post-game interview. Our dude was weeping, thanking God, and dropping three cuss words on national television. Next to him, a bloodied Blake Corum stood, gently leaking onto the Beaver Stadium field. Michigan has been the subject of a month-long PR campaign attempting to spin a useless scheme executed by an overzealous staffer into the Greatest Scandal In Big Ten History, and the dullard currently running the conference bought it hook, line and sinker.

By the time the league finally acted, Jim Harbaugh was literally on a plane to Happy Valley. The entire Michigan universe is furious, and we're not even on the team.I have no idea what kind of rage players on the team must have felt. Their head coach is suspended right before a top-ten road matchup. The thing they've worked their whole lives for is under threat due to actions they knew nothing about and had nothing to do with. Their play since the scandal-type substance broke is indication enough that whatever Connor Stalions was doing had approximately zero impact on how good this football team is.

It is incredible that Michigan took all of that, bottled it up, coldly evaluated the way you lose to this Penn State team—a strip-sack—and then ran a second-half gameplan far removed from what anyone would recognize as winning football in 2023. They won with it.

On top of the injury Tony Petitti delivered, there was plenty of insult to go around. Penn State defenders were taunting Michigan with cringy sign-stealing celebrations. Their defensive coordinator made a similarly cringy joke on a hype video posted a couple days before the game. Michigan ate all of that. They shoved it into a hole. They did not spear a guy in the helmet from behind, or take two personal foul penalties on one play, or lose their cool in any discernible way. They just handled their business.

In the end, it was Penn State that could not gear down. It was Penn State that kept flinging guys across the line of scrimmage long after it was clear that Michigan was anticipating that. The home team lost the plot, not Michigan. The day after, James Franklin threw yet another Spinal Tap drummer under the bus by firing Mike Yurich. After all that, they're the shook ones.

Players will tell you they shut all the noise out. They don't. They can't. It's clear that Michigan has been steeping in the same poisonous online media spaces we all have been, from the team-wide "bet" tweets in the aftermath of the suspension to what Corum did when he shut the door on Penn State for good: the same thing Manny Diaz did. Except instead of "get there early," "be loud," and "especially on third down" they meant:

Time's up.

I can't hear you.

You're next, Third Base.

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[Barron]

AWARDS

Known Friends and Trusted Agents Of The Week

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[Barron]

you're the man now, dog-2535ac8789d1b499[1]

#1 Blake Corum. 26 carries for 145 yards, 5.6 a pop, against what was statistically one of the best defenses in America, while Michigan was metaphorically holding up a big sign that said "RUN" on every second-half snap.

#2 Kenneth Grant. Four solo tackles as a NT; popped up early and often to clobber PSU run plays. Turned in the play of the game on defense when he ran down Kaytron Allen on PSU's only explosive play.

#3 The Offensive Line. See the Corum items above. Can't move them higher because Barnhart was the major reason Michigan held up the big RUN sign, but drop out the sack and the two kneeldowns and Michigan's output: 43 carries, 263 yards, 6.1 YPC, against a team coming off a game against Maryland where they "gave up" –49 yards.

Honorable mention: JJ McCarthy was efficient on his eight attempts and added 44 yards on 7 carries; AJ Barner was the main reason Corum's bounce went long; Donovan Edwards popped two explosives and narrowly missed a second touchdown; Rayshaun Benny had a TFL and forced a fumble; Will Johnson chased the only PSU receiver around.

KFaTAotW Standings.

(points: #1: 8, #2: 5, #3: 3, HMs one each. Ties result in somewhat arbitrary assignments.)

45: JJ McCarthy (#1 ECU, #1 UNLV, #2 Rutgers, HM Nebraska, #2 Minn, #1 IU, #1 MSU, HM PUR, HM PSU)
23: Kris Jenkins (HM ECU, T2 UNLV, #1 BGSU, HM Rutgers, #1 Neb, HM MSU)
18: Blake Corum (HM ECU, HM UNLV, #2 BGSU, HM Rutgers, HM Neb, HM IU, #1 PSU)
15: Mason Graham (HM ECU, T2 UNLV, #1 Minn, HM IU, HM MSU)
14: Roman Wilson (T2 ECU, HM UNLV, HM BGSU, #3 Nebraska, #2 PUR)
13: Mike Sainristil (T3 ECU, HM BGSU, #1 Rutgers, HM IU, HM MSU)
11: Mike Barrett (HM UNLV, T3 Rutgers, #2 IU, T1 PUR), AJ Barner (HM BGSU, HM Neb, HM Minn, T3 IU, T2 MSU, HM PSU), Kenneth Grant (T3 ECU, T2 UNLV, #2 PSU)
10: Braiden McGregor(T3 UNLV, #2 Nebraska, T1 PUR)
9: Colston Loveland (HM Rutgers, T3 IU, T2 MSU, HM PUR)
7: Cornelius Johnson (T2 ECU, HM UNLV, HM BGSU, HM Minn), Derrick Moore (T3 UNLV, HM Neb, HM MSU, T1 PUR), Will Johnson(#3 Minn, #3 PUR, HM PSU)
6: Junior Colson (#3 BGSU, T3 Rutgers, HM MSU), Jaylen Harrell (HM UNLV, HM BGSU, HM IU, T1 PUR)
4: Ernest Hausmann (T3 ECU, T3 Rutgers), Max Bredeson (HM Rutgers, HM Neb, T3 IU), Josiah Stewart (HM Minn, T1 PUR), The Offensive Line (HM Minn, #3 PSU)
2:  Josh Wallace (T3 ECU), Semaj Morgan (HM Rutgers, HM PUR), Donovan Edwards (HM ECU, HM PSU)
1: Tommy Doman (HM ECU), Tyler Morris (HM UNLV), Quinten Johnson (HM Rutgers), Kalel Mullings (HM Minn),Keon Sabb (HM Minn), Ben Hall (HM IU), Rod Moore (HM PUR), Rayshaun Benny (HM PSU)

Who's Got It Better Than Us(?) Of The Week

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THE DON [Barron]

Sherrone Moore shows Manny Diaz his liver with a third-and-eleven run from just outside the redzone that Donovan Edwards cashes for a touchdown and a 14-3 lead.

Honorable mention: Corum calls game. Rayshaun Benny punches a ball out that Makari Paige falls on.

imageMARCUS HALL EPIC DOUBLE BIRD OF THE WEEK

Karsen Barnhart gives up three –2 pass pro events in the first four potential pass pro events, leading me and probably many others to believe that Michigan was totally boned.

Honorable mention: Quinten Johnson INT is (correctly) overturned, which makes the Michael Barrett penalty a first down, which eventually leads to a touchdown, which prevents the score from looking like the game, which irritates me a great deal. Cam Goode's spectacular pass rush turns into a first down because he overruns the dude. Officials inexplicably overturn a running into the kicker penalty that would have given Michigan a first down. PSU scores a QB draw TD on which Mason Graham is obviously, materially held.

NICK SAMAC PATHETIC DOUBLE BIRD OF THE WEEKsamac_thumb1

I don't know, maybe the Big Ten suspending Jim Harbaugh as he was literally on a plane to Happy Valley. Maybe the fanciful notion that suspending Harbaugh is a sanction against the University because he embodies the football team. Maybe pretending like this penny-ante bullshit is Endangering The Student Athletes. Maybe everything Tony Petitti has done since becoming Big Ten commissioner. I really thought I wouldn't be handing this out on a weekly basis but we're not off to a great start.

Dishonorable mention: N/A

[After THE JUMP: Manny gonna Manny]

OFFENSE

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[Barron]

The play that changed the game. Michigan's down 3-0, they've got a third and ten, Joel Klatt is busy telestrating how the bunch set Michigan is in will at least force PSU's DEs to go further around Barnhart to get to McCarthy. And then:

I'll get into this more in UFR but Morgan's motion takes away one defender and then PSU is so intent on stopping the potential zone read keep that on the snap three PSU defenders end up behind the last M OL. From there it's hat on a hat and a conversion. And a new world.

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All too easy [Barron]

Manny can't help himself. The play immediately after that was the first Edwards explosive. Michigan has their heavy package in: 7 OL, two tight ends. Just watch the left half of the PSU defense:

three PSU players to the bottom

All three of those guys shoot straight upfield and are gone, giving Edwards the world's largest cutback lane. PSU then gets Michigan into a third down. Manny sends six guys across the LOS and his tricksy changeup is dropping a guy into the flat to the boundary; Semaj Morgan is untouched by anyone not named Trevor Keegan until he's well past the sticks:

This drive was capped off by Penn State going "argh, we've only got eleven guys" when presented with yet another Michigan front with infinite gaps. They ran a twelfth on; Michigan got three yards anyway.

The bounce. Similar deal on the 42-yarder for Corum: the entire defense is flinging itself upfield, in part because Michigan has the huge set on and you've got guys who know they'll lose one on one if they play it straight. The two guys on the left side of the line are Tyler Elsdon, who is 229 pounds, and Dom DeLuca, who is 218. Elsdon ends up on the ground in the backfield; DeLuca is trying so hard to not get blown out by Barner that he entirely fails to set an edge.

Head down, off balance, no thought to setting the edge: DeLuca is playing this like it's fourth and goal from the one and he has to gamble. That's PSU's defense in a nutshell.

The big yikes. Michigan saw three Karsen Barnhart pass pro snaps on which PSU DEs teleported to McCarty on their first two drives and decided they weren't going to run a dropback pass the rest of the game. The game previews have that section about worrying/cackling that's supposed to highlight areas of the game where expectations could turn in a hurry, and ahyup:

Worry if...

  • PSU DEs are teleporting past Michigan tackles.

I felt pretty pretty bad about things after those first couple drives, and then Sherrone And The Big Big Boys came out and ground Penn State to dust.

Our concern, now, dude, is what happens in two weeks. I am here to say you should tamp down on the panic for a couple different reasons. One is that Barnhart has already played the OSU DEs and came out of last year's game with a total of 2 pass pro minuses. (PFF has one of the most bizarre grades I can remember for that game: they charged Barnhart with two pressures surrendered on 27 dropbacks and gave him a grade of 5. Out of 100.) JTT and Sawyer have improved this year but I don't think it's going to be a bloodbath like PSU's ends were able to issue. Both of those guys are bigger speed to power types instead of the pure edge get-off guys PSU has, and when Barnhart has gone up against very good versions of those players this year he has hung in.

Two is that this was Michigan's first (and last) road game at a venue where the crowd was a real problem. Michigan has been very good all year about getting out of the huddle early and using their varied clap snap counts to neutralize get-off and get semi-frequent free plays. At Penn State Michigan went to a silent count for the first time all year, leading to various issues. One of those was DEs looking at the ball getting out of their stance before Barnhart, who was looking at the DEs.

Dennis-Sutton moves first there. He's not supposed to get to move first. The third and final teleport issue saw Chop Robinson move before anyone on Michigan's OL, including the center who, you know, snapped the ball.

That said, this is what I was concerned about in the season preview when I said Barnhart was the Cade McNamara amongst the four starting-ish tackles. I think he will hang in against OSU, but a mediocre run game score around 0 and 5-7 pass pro minuses is probably the best case scenario. The second teleport wasn't a get-off issue, it was just Barnhart getting roasted.

The difference. Both teams had first and goal from the three in this game. Penn State got stuffed on first down and threw on second and third, then kicked a field goal. Michigan punched it in easily on first down.

DEFENSE

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[Barron]

Also a controlled demolition. I must admit some early irritations at Michigan's insistence on sitting back with two deep safeties and general lack of OSU-style utter contempt for the Penn State receiving corps. Michigan allowed a number of effective runs because they were fine with PSU getting to double a DT for a long period of time and at no point got particularly aggressive. If they were so inclined they could have throttled the PSU offense even more than they did.

They were not inclined; they continue to run a relatively conservative defense aimed primarily at containing Ohio State—not a typo—and forcing them into third down after third down after third down if they want to drive the field. Even their short yardage stops weren't aggressive. Michigan forces a punt here on a QB run; PSU has a hat for a hat as Michigan runs a six man box:

Penn State's lone touchdown drive that meant anything was a rickety contraption that required two fourth down conversions, one of them on a throwback to the quarterback, and a flagrantly missed hold on Mason Graham. This game was much closer to 30-6 than a competitive final score.

The long run. Two main issues. One: Derrick Moore gets sealed instantly and is not helpful stringing the play out. Two: Michael Barrett does not funnel to help. If Barrett gets outside of the second puller either Grant or Colson gets him down after 5-6 yards. Speaking of…

Holy Mother Of God, Kenneth Grant. You author heard the "this guy just got drafted" music during this play:

That is a holy lock to be on his draft reel. Also:

We got dang close to the 10 OL + Orji package in this game. I will revise my request to 10 OL + Kenneth Grant.

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[Barron]

A preview? One thing that jumped out: Will Johnson in the slot. This has not happened all year, but there he was on Penn State's first third down:

CB #2 over slot to bottom

He's there because KeAndre Lambert-Smith is there, and he is the only Penn State receiver worth worrying about. Johnson followed Lambert-Smith around for much of the day, and Lambert-Smith did nothing. The mind naturally projects this approach a couple weeks down the road and envisions Johnson following Marvin Harrison Jr around.

Two problems with that: one is that Emeka Egbuka is also a first-round talent. The second is that Johnson in the slot was a man coverage giveaway every time. Michigan has been playing Mike Sainristil on the outside with some frequency this year, so the only thing they need to have a curveball is for Johnson to be able to execute some zone drops from the slot.

Rotation: reduced! It very much did not seem like Michigan had tightened their silly deep rotation live since Cam Goode, Rayshaun Benny, and Quinten Johnson kept popping up on crucial plays but, yes, the rotation did get tightened up. Somewhat. DT snaps: Graham 43, Grant 33, Jenkins 32, Goode 18, Benny 14.

DE snaps remained split approximately 50/50 between the four contenders. Colson and Barrett had 54 and 58 snaps, respectively, with Hausmann picking up 17 largely thanks to some short yardage packages. CBs other than Wallace, Sainristil, and Johnson did not appear; Quinten Johnson had 19 snaps and Sabb 11.

Covering grass. Colson's old bugaboo showed up on PSU's late touchdown. Michigan had him in a robber zone in the middle of the field and he just stayed in a spot when drifting towards the tight end is a PBU or INT.

SPECIAL TEAMS

Eh? Not a whole lot to talk about. Some punts went back and forth. PSU had a fairly good return called back for a relevant hold. The other special teams event belongs in the next category because it is a ref event.

MISCELLANEOUS

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please ask me questions about the dumb stuff i did, not the okay stuff [Barron]

FRAMES! The third segment of our podcast used to have a lot of discussion about game theory stuff, but of late football coaches have been close to 100% correct on decisions that aren't a coinflip so all that rabbling about going for it on fourth down has given way to a brief "any game theory stuff?" followed by a "no," and then we move on. But Frames. Frames always provides content. Thank you Frames.

There were five points of interest for PSU in this game:

  • Punting on fourth and inches on his own 34 early in the second quarter.
  • Going for two after scoring late in the first half; PSU failed and was down 14-9.
  • Punting on fourth and three on their own 45 at the end of the third quarter, down 17-9.
  • Going for it on fourth and six on their own 30 with about eight minutes left.
  • Going for two after scoring with two minutes left down nine; this also failed so PSU was down nine and had to onside kick.

Ironically, the one impregnably correct decision Franklin made—the second decision to go for two—was the one he caught heat for in the postgame press conference. That decision was fairly close to the platonic ideal of the go-for-it-early camp, because PSU immediately knew that they had to go onside since they were down two scores. If they get the two point conversion they could kick it deep, play D, and try to score with about a minute left on the clock.

For purposes of making people finally stop tweeting at me about this it would have been better if PSU had another minute and another timeout, making the kick-it-deep scenario more plausible in the event of a made two-pointer. Alas.

As for the other decisions: the early decision to punt was probably correct given the game state, the fact your offense blows, and your defense is rad. Arguing against is that the distance was clearly in QB sneak territory. I'd want Michigan to go there, because they are Michigan. Penn State? I'm not so sure. Ditto the fourth and three punt. If your offense is not completely broken, you go. But it is.

This set of facts about PSUs offense and defense also makes the first decision to go for two completely indefensible. If you're Oregon and the final score of your game is going to be 52-48, sure, whatever, have fun. If you are Penn State your shot at converting from the three is not the 50/50 that people commonly use when evaluating these decisions. It's much worse, and the upside is… what, exactly? If you kick a field goal and Michigan doesn't score again you're tied? FOH.

Similarly, the decision to go on fourth and six from your own thirty was suicide. You're not in a good spot either way but chances are you get the ball back; given the state of the offense the chances of conversion were slim and the chances of getting the ball back were even better than normal.

I genuinely wonder if there's a Vegas adjustment for "James Franklin is going to do something dumb" in the lines. Doesn't seem like it.

Didn't get jobbed, but… Michigan was on the wrong end of the two most consequential non-calls of the game. Penn State's first half touchdown is 98% a field goal if the hold on Graham is called, and Michigan was robbed of a possession when the officials inexplicably picked up a running into/roughing the kicker flag, claiming that a guy who had flung himself over Michigan's wall had been blocked into Tommy Doman.

I cannot imagine that is the way that rule is supposed to be applied, because that gives license to defenders to recklessly hurl themselves over blockers. If they get touched on the way through, anything that happens after isn't their fault. Kyle strikes again.

We did it. We made it on to Art But Make It Sports:

LFG.

HERE

Best and Worst:

…after the game Sherrone Moore showed some emotion during his interview, tearing up while professing his appreciation for this team and Jim Harbaugh with some colorful fucking language.  It was one of the more genuine displays of emotions you’ll see out of a coach in today’s game.

But because you’ve all been on the internet before, you already know how this was received by a subset of people out there.  Matt Fortuna, who apparently has a newsletter about college football but has never heard about Hugh Freeze, opined that this display of callous disregard for (checks notes) the ears of college football players might cost him a job.  Dan Dakich, yes that Dan Dakich but also THAT Dan Dakich, opined about the loss of masculinity because of Moore’s outburst, because the person we definitely should listen about handling his emotions is a guy who yells at college swimmers online and got fired for calling a HS student a meth head.  Feel free to look up his tweet if you want; I already feel gross sending traffic to Elon Musk’s failed mid-life crisis without also signal-boosting a dipshit who weirdly didn’t have much to say about Ryan Day voice-cracking his way through an interview earlier this year.  Sort of a mystery why one coach’s display of emotion was deeply offensive to Mr. Dakich and not the other, but I’ll leave that sleuthing up to the intrepid Twitter timeline searcher.

But the mere fact that this display of emotion, that caring about something as cosmically inconsequential as who wins or losses a football game, is “bad” has always bugged me.

State of our Open Threads:

Speaking of us being excitable, let's talk about fucks given:

The precise number of fucks given yesterday was 475 - some of you may have given some offline. I did certainly. This obliterates the previous season high, which was 158 for the Purdue game, and indeed, yesterday's total moves the season average from 85 to 122 by itself. It was a lot of fucks, but we had a lot of occasion to use that word. The usage varied from discontent with the conference, to Tony Petitti personally, to the refs, to the strategic abandonment of passing, plus several more. The larger point is that emotions were high among the fanbase as well, and it certainly showed.

Iowatch!

Here’s a fun fact: Iowa has not lost to Rutgers with Brian Ferentz as OC. Iowa won 22-0, Deacon “Happy Learned How to Putt Uh Oh” Hill increased his season’s passing total by almost 50%...and I refuse to describe this game any further. You know how Iowa wins games. It was a bloodbath.

I’ve called Greg Schiano “one of the best game planners in the conference.” Schiano agrees, and say what you like about the dude (believe me I will), self-esteem is not one of his issues. It doesn’t take conference-wide collaboration to figure out that Iowa’s offense has only two signs: 1) “not in the face!”, and 2) "not in the gonads!” But. The Iowa defense likewise has two signals: 1) “kick him in the crotch, dammit, the crotch!”, and 2) “if you let my football go now, that will be the end of it…”. Didn’t plan on that, did ya?

A report from Happy Valley:

PSU fans remarkably nice: My neighbor in DC is from Detroit and went to UM.  He always goes to the Maryland and Rutgers games when in the region.  I asked him about PSU and he said he went once, and that it was such a horrible experience with the fans whom he said “were animals” that he would never go again (he’s African American, so maybe I got a different experience). But, for us, the PSU fans were lovely, talkative, funny, helpful.

Change is Death.

Comments

Hotel Putingrad

November 13th, 2023 at 12:16 PM ^

America's Team!

Also, not sure why Brian didn't say this, but the thinking about the late game going for 2 is wrong. You do it when you're down 14,, not 15. Thus in the former scenario, you know what you need next, but in the latter scenario, you end up like Frames did, needing two more possessions and at least one inside kick. That's not the game theory you want.

Jack Be Nimble

November 13th, 2023 at 10:14 PM ^

Sorry, but this take is clearly wrong, and it's precisely the opposite of what Brian is saying.

You don't go for two when you're down 14 because you don't need to. What you need are two touchdowns and you can just kick the extra point after each touchdown.

When you're down 15 is precisely when you should be going for two earlier rather than later. The idea is that you are going to need a two-point conversion no matter what, so you are going to have to go for it either earlier or later. Assuming the chance of making the two point conversion early is equal to the chance of making the two point conversion later (a pretty safe assumption), it is better to make the try early because it gives you more information about what you need to do later.

By refusing to take the early try, you are not increasing your chances of winning. You are only putting your head in the sand by putting off the key moment to later in the game. You don't gain anything at all from putting off the key moment, and you do lose something. Information with time to act on it.

Jack Be Nimble

November 13th, 2023 at 11:00 PM ^

As Brian was saying above, I understand this is a commonly-held view, but I think you've completely missed the point.

Think of it this way. Let's start by assuming that you're correct, and missing the conversion means the game is over.

Even if that's true, waiting to try until later does not actually improve your chances of winning at all, as long as it's true that the chance of making the two point conversion early is equal to the chance of making the two point conversion later. Even if you're correct and the game is over after the try, then trying early and trying late are still totally equal propositions!

But, in fact, the game is not actually totally over after the try. There is still time left for some unlikely stuff to happen, and you are better off if you know that you've missed with 5 minutes left than to learn that you've missed with only 1 minute left.

Wolverine91

November 13th, 2023 at 11:41 PM ^

I could understand if there was indeed 5 minutes left, but there wasn’t. Psu scored with less than 2 minutes left. That means they have 1 stop left to get the ball back and tie the game had they kicked the field goal after the last TD. Since they missed the prior conversion, the game was over at that point. There’s no time for multiple possessions. So I’m saying you kick, play defense get the ball back with momentum and hope and go from there. You never want to end the game before the game is finished, you always give yourself a fighting chance. Missing that conversion kills all chances. 

ZooWolverine

November 14th, 2023 at 12:30 AM ^

Why does it matter when you lose? If you go for two first and you don't get it, you're almost certainly going to lose. If you go for two second and you don't get it, you're almost certainly going to lose. The only benefit of the second scenario is that you don't realize you're going to lose.

To me, this is like getting a raffle ticket at a party that has a 1 in 1000 chance of winning. At the beginning of the evening, someone offers to give me a second raffle ticket, but they're going to tell me right then whether I win or lose. I'd argue it's better to take the raffle ticket and the slightly better odds of winning (albeit still very low). You're arguing that it's better to not find out because I'm probably not going to win, and this way I go all evening without realizing that I've lost.

Richard75

November 13th, 2023 at 11:23 PM ^

You don't go for two when you're down 14 because you don't need to.

You do indeed go for two when you’re down 14. Someone broke down the odds a while back (the NFL odds, anyway).

Assuming that you score the two TDs, going for two gives you a 60% chance of winning. Kicking two PATs gives you a 45.5% chance to win.

Going for two is superior because 1) the odds of getting it (plus a made kick) are roughly equivalent to the above 45.5% and 2) you get the additional chance of winning in OT (if you fail on the first two-point try but make the second).

Jack Be Nimble

November 13th, 2023 at 11:37 PM ^

As I understand it, the calculus regarding going for two when down 14 in the NFL changed in 2015 when the extra point was moved back. The article you cite mentions extra points being made around 94% of the time, which is very low compared to the percentage before the move. In the five years prior to 2015, the extra point percentage was above 99 percent, and the chances of scoring on a two point conversion were closer to 48%.

So I'm not certain whether you should go for two when down 14 late in the game in college. I am certain you should plan to go for two when down 15 though.

smitty1233

November 13th, 2023 at 12:25 PM ^

Not a big pat yourself on the back type however I saw all last week how our run game was a concern OMG what are we going to do we can't run. I responded in these spaces everywhere possible when we turn McCarthy's legs to ON this is a different rushing attack. I think two keys to this game are PSU defenders flying up field and JJ being able to zone keep and keep you honest in a way that allows Corum and the Don to be different. WHAT A FUCKING GAME! I am guilty of double birding Manny on the Edwards TV. I quote while doing it "You like that Manny you Fing smuck" 

stephenrjking

November 13th, 2023 at 12:26 PM ^

One of my concerns has been that, no matter how good the leadership of the team, no matter how much they care about each other, no matter how unjust the chaos around them, it's hard for them not to be affected in some way by everything. And yes, it can hurt the team; that's why it's being done. The B1G waited until the last possible moment specifically to ensure the greatest possible chance that they would get Harbaugh off the sidelines to get their pound of flesh. The other programs pressuring Pettiti into action are eager for a chance to knock down a rival, and they see in Harbaugh a guy who is the best coach in the conference but is also one they might be able to rid themselves of if they make college football too much of a drag. 

So it surely affects the team. And it did in State College, where the ability to counter the alarming pass rush problems was necessarily limited by the fact that the man who is both the OC and the OL coach was now also responsible for the entire team, with 20 hours notice. 

They were affected, but they kept their cool. And they played the way they needed to. And they won convincingly. Another chapter in the story of a legendary team. 

You're next, third base. 

pdgoblue25

November 13th, 2023 at 12:28 PM ^

Watching Barnhart in pass pro I see now why they were trying so hard to get the Hinton experiment to work.  I still wish Trente would have gotten a shot to start, but based on the O-line play the last 2 years I'm well aware that the coaches know more than I do.

Hell of a game, fuck Petitti

Bet

Michigan4Life

November 13th, 2023 at 12:50 PM ^

I think Brian is waving it off on Barnhart's issues against OSU. This was last year and we can clearly see that Barnhart is a weakpoint on the OL. That's a big reason why Michigan rarely goes straight drop back passes because they know that Barnhart would get exposed in pass pro. My question is why didn't Moore give him more help with TE lining up next to him to chip the EDGE or RB chipping for him. 

Michigan ran the ball well, but it wasn't great against PSU. It was tough sledding for the most part. That's a huge concern as they go to the CFP where UGA is a total different beast. 

goblu330

November 13th, 2023 at 1:13 PM ^

I fully understand that guard and tackle are very different positions, but everybody keeps saying how Michigan has like 10 offensive lineman who could start/play in the BIG.  I don't want to hate on a guy, but there isn't one of them who can do the offensive lineman-ing better than Barnhart?

UMQuadz05

November 13th, 2023 at 12:29 PM ^

I've been privately hoping for Michigan to make shit-posting play cards...can't believe no one thought to write "THIS IS A RUN" on the back of one in the 2nd half.

EGD

November 13th, 2023 at 6:34 PM ^

I think that’s a really good question. Manny Diaz obviously knows 100 times more about football in his pinky toe than I ever will. But I can say for myself, I was sitting in front of my TV yelling “run the ball, Sherrone!” And every time he did, I was like “yes!” because I was sure the next time is gonna be a play-action pass. Nope!
Such a bad-ass job calling those plays.

 

BuckeyeChuck

November 13th, 2023 at 12:32 PM ^

How many of you saw Seth’s series of tweets Saturday morning about irreparable harm? Beginning with:

I'm not a legal expert but my guess is that it's because Kuhnke has to run in Washtenaw County again in the future and Connor doesn't. As to why the motion wasn't granted, again, not a legal expert, but I am pretty comfortable saying only "irreparable harm" was too hard to prove. https://t.co/HCpdRkkNg4

— Seth M. Fisher (@Misopogon) November 11, 2023

Seth goes on to suggest that the suspension placates Michigan’s accusers because it gives the appearance of coming down on the program harshly but does little to hinder the team, permitting Harbaugh to continue to provide game planning and leadership from Sunday-Friday when his input is most influential. He’s not greatly needed on the sideline because the coordinators are handling both sides of the ball. (Of course, there’s been a lot of discussion on this board the past few years about how much or little Harbaugh is involved in the offensive play calling, but we all know that Harbaugh would not be opposed to ~30 consecutive recorded rushes.)

And the suspension did nothing to hinder the kids. The players still have the opportunity to play and win each game with all championship aspirations still ahead of them. In fact the suspension has galvanized them and provided an opportunity for them to play angry; and every coach wants players who will play angry.

So essentially, the B1G issued a punishment in such a way that it:

  1. pacifies Michigan’s accusers
  2. permits Harbaugh to still have his fingerprints all over the preparations, game planning & leadership throughout the week, and
  3. has galvanized the locker room, making the team even better in its pursuit of championships.

lhglrkwg

November 13th, 2023 at 1:20 PM ^

It clearly had an effect. How many timeouts did we burn struggling to change playcalls? Sherrone had a ton on his plate trying to be HC and get plays in as OC. You can see how heavy that pressure was in how his postgame interview was. So people being like tHe sUsPeNsIoN dOeSnT hUrT tHe pLaYeRs can gtfo. The Big Ten tried to kneecap us in one of our biggest games of the season. OSU is never getting treated like that

DonAZ

November 13th, 2023 at 12:45 PM ^

What this B1G punishment does not do is close the door on future arbitrary and capricious uses of this broad discretionary power.  It's one thing if they were consistent in the use of this power, but they're not.  This is clearly an anti-Michigan / anti-Harbaugh action, and if they did it this time they will do it again, and again.  That's the problem.

Puget Sound Blue

November 13th, 2023 at 1:51 PM ^

Agreed. I didn't like the suspension, of course, but for me the more significant issue is the novel interpretation of the sportsmanship rule that justified an arbitrary punishment against someone for which there is, as of yet, no evidence that the person punished did the act that drew the punishment. I'm not really buying the "we're actually punishing the team" reasoning, since it's being directed at a single individual.

rice4114

November 13th, 2023 at 3:25 PM ^

So possibly after an investigation is complete. Got it.

Also ruling after the prosecution rests its case seems like bad timing no?

EDIT: Sorry Matty Im more agreeing with you than anything. Cant believe people in general are ok with a verdict before a defense is given. Trial or not this is how America works.

stephenrjking

November 13th, 2023 at 12:56 PM ^

Acknowledging that you are a good contributor as an opposing fan on this board, you're not just trolling: 

Respectfully, it strains credulity to assert that banning the head coach from the sidelines during a game "does little to hinder the team." The HC is on the headset, consulting with staff, making key decisions. He is aware of and invested in events on both sides of the ball. He is the one that discusses officiating problems with the refs. And, generally, at least on the side of the ball they specialize in, he has a role in consulting about schemes and playcalls and adjustments.

Michigan lost all of that on Saturday. And it mattered. The sideline reporter documented at least one instance where Sherrone Moore was doing his coordinator work and had to be reminded to put his headset on. This means that he had to choose *between* filling his role as an OC/OL coach (already a heavy double load) and filling his role as the team's acting HC. 

Michigan had trouble getting plays in and burned several time outs as a result. Now, it *is* the harshest road environment Michigan will face this year, but it's also true that the OC has more details to focus on as the acting HC and that can easily interrupt the playcalling flow. It's not unreasonable to think that Harbaugh's absence had an effect on that. It is also not unreasonable (indeed, it seems almost certain) to think that Harbaugh's absence had an effect on what in-game adjustments could be made. With the RT appearing to be utterly overmatched in pass protection, this could have been a big deal. Having Harbaugh available to provide input, having Moore with more time to view the field and consider adjustment options, having one more set of eyes to see what was happening? These are big deals. 

Michigan overcame those problems and won. And Harbaugh is certainly not going to complain about running a lot. But I will always wonder if Michigan could have developed another tweak or two if Harbaugh had been there, a tweak to allow for at least another PA attempt downfield or two. A play or two where the call gets in faster because Moore can focus on the call and the personnel because he's not also being the HC. 

Also, this suspension hasn't pacified Michigan's accusers. It has emboldened them, as all situations like this in the social media age do. People never find themselves satisifed by some sort of punishment or another. There is no punishment, short of Harbaugh being kicked out of the sport and Michigan being banned from playing the rest of the season, that will placate the outrage merchants. We've seen this story enough times now to know that it's true. 

 

BuckeyeChuck

November 13th, 2023 at 1:07 PM ^

I appreciate your response. To touch on one item:

This means that he had to choose *between* filling his role as an OC/OL coach (already a heavy double load) and filling his role as the team's acting HC.

This is why I would prefer that a fill-in HC would not be a coordinator. Let the OC/DCs focus on their side of the ball and have a non-coordinator position coach fill-in as HC. Perhaps Hart, or other? Just my preference.

Needs

November 13th, 2023 at 1:07 PM ^

Fair, but, it also invented new standards and procedures on the fly in which the Big Ten will

1. Adjudicate and hand-down sanctions before the completion of ongoing NCAA investigations.

2. Regard coaches as the central representative of institutions, regardless of the extent of their involvement (and without even knowing what that extent was)

3. Communicate with media members before contacting university officials. (This is such a red flag of disrespect for member institutions and should deeply trouble every university president in the Big Ten).

4. Punish teams based on material garnered from unknown outside sources and based on the sentiment of competing programs, opening a potential Pandora's Box in which ADs will attempt to leak damaging information about each other. 

This is to say nothing of the timing of the suspension being handed down.

Unlike many here, I don't think that Michigan should really consider leaving the Big Ten. I think the costs are too high. But I do think it should demand the removal of Pettiti. It should do so by totally bypassing the ADs, who have revealed themselves to be too interested to consider the implications of these new ad hoc standards, and proceed at the presidential and regent's level. (My suggestion would be a regent's vote of no confidence in Pettiti, based on the ad hoc procedural changes).

This whole thing was terrible procedurally, and university presidents know that new procedure, when its made up on the fly, has the potential to create terrible long term precendents.