One man against the storm. [Bryan Fuller]

Hot Seat Vibes: Seven Hours in the Hurricane Comment Count

Ben Mathis-Lilley November 2nd, 2021 at 10:03 AM

[Ed(Seth): Friend of the blog and Slate writer Ben Mathis-Lilley is working on a book about college football head coaches and the interactions of these men with the particular fanbases they stand astride. Or something like that. While he does his research we’ve dragooned him into attending Michigan games and studying the fan cultures he finds, while also keeping tabs on the Michigan mood. This week he met a bunch of MSU fans in their natural habitat.]

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The day dawned cold, wet, and gross.

I’m referring to the day before the day before the game. The day before the game also dawned the same way. Then the day of the game dawned that way as well. It was a long weekend of interactions conducted in and around mud.

It had occurred to me that this was the canonical way to spend three days in Michigan. I am working on a book, The Hot Seat, about how varying kinds of Americans express their varying personal and cultural preoccupations by arguing about college football coaches. Two weeks ago I went to Baton Rouge on what turned out to be the weekend that arguments about Ed Orgeron reached their conclusion. No one I contacted ahead of the trip was excited about the actual football game scheduled that Saturday, although it turned out to be a victory over Florida, now engaged in its own invigorating coach discourse. But there was a consensus excitement about making sure I enjoyed the Louisiana experience, which had a specific meaning. I sent a message to three contacts about what to do, in general, during the time I was going to be there. Within eight minutes I had gotten back twelve recommendations about food and none about anything else.

But what was Michigan’s thing? The weather suggested an answer. The Michigan way of life is acting normal, casual, and even enthusiastic when most of your energy and concentration are actually going toward keeping your feet from literally freezing in place in some wet grass and mud. No, let me correct that. The Michigan way of life is drawing power from its cold, misting, piss of a climate.

[After THE JUMP: a spec.]

This to me was the story of the weekend, which I mostly spent talking, before and during the game, to people who went to Michigan State. I expected these conversations to revolve around Michigan, which they did to some extent. Michigan graduates are condescending, they want to mention what car they drive and allude to how much money they make—basically accurate stuff. But a deeper context was explained to me by someone named Tim Alberta on Friday—which, admittedly, was kind of a cheat code because in addition to being an MSU grad Alberta is one of if not the leading journalistic experts on the way that “cultural polarization” has transformed United States politics in the twenty-first century. So his insights about the nature of a given rivalry could be expected to be a cut above those of a lesser brain like, to take one example, mine.

Let me give you, as background for Alberta’s observation, a short and probably oversimplified history of higher education in Michigan. It’s the 19th century. White people are moving from the East to various parts of the “West,” treating them as if they are “virgin,” uninhabited territory (big asterisk there), and trying to start their own cities and states. All these places are competing to attract more migration and Eastern financing and federal recognition, so they quickly found institutions meant to make themselves look more big-time.

In most places one of the things this meant was a flagship university that could turn out ministers, teachers, engineers, and doctors for the state. (In addition to the prestige factor, it was also very useful to be able to produce those kinds of professionals locally during an era when the fastest way to travel between states was often on a horse.) One of the places that gets started in this way is the University of Michigan. Michigan grows quickly because of an ahead-of-its time commitment to providing a fancy education to regular working people; thanks to this, as well as to the money and status accumulated because of the state’s stock of lumber and its centrality to the automobile industry, it’s able to grow even beyond its initial ambitions into one of the biggest and best in the world.

Meanwhile, though, here is this other university, Michigan State. It’s founded in order to study and advance the practices of agriculture and “applied science”—“land grant college” stuff. (Again an asterisk here as far as whose land it was to grant.) Michigan State also benefits expands beyond these origins and become a nationally relevant “research university.” It’s one that can go toe to toe, Alberta notes to me, on most measures of prestige and accomplishment with other flagship schools across the country. To name a few random examples—and to be clear, this is me talking at this point, or rather, me imagining the inner monologue of the median Michigan State alumnus—it’s just as accomplished as the flagship schools of Pennsylvania and Ohio. But because of a certain other university in its orbit, Michigan State gets treated less like a Penn State or Ohio State than like a remedial idiot asylum for people who write Ks backwards in ransom notes. Moreover, because this other university has gotten so busy creating investment bank CEOs, Silicon Valley billionaires, New York Times political journalists, and so forth, the job of actually educating the teachers and engineers and business-administration administrators who make the state of Michigan actually work—who have built a civilization and a way of life in this beautiful but essentially inhospitable peninsular forest—falls to the other school.

And yet what happens, Alberta put it to me rhetorically, when that second school has the best football team in the state for two solid decades, and starts a season 7-0? What happens is the national press goes nuts because the first school’s team might not be a big disappointment this year. All of the work and as much if not more of the achievement, but none of the credit or attention.

This imbalance is, perhaps, a good way to symbolize the UM-MSU rivalry from Michigan State’s perspective. Now, there can be nasty and inexcusable responses to it, like Mark Dantonio’s choice to violate sportsmanship and legal-discipline norms for his own benefit. Moreover, if Michigan State does not want people in the rest of its country to conclude that it lacks a certain sophistication and dignity, I humbly suggest that Michigan State could reconsider the tradition of responding to literally any major sports outcome by setting things on fire at the apartment complex where Barstool Sports just hosted its weekly show.

But the Barstool ethos, as perplexing as its appeal may be even to Michigan Men, was not in evidence during my conversations with MSU alums, who included a supply chain manager, a phys-ed teacher, and a critical-care doctor who was himself the son of a retired alum whose last job was keeping track of vehicle specs for Chrysler. They were all pleasantly surprised about their team’s 2021 record; several used the phrase “house money.” It was at one of their tailgates that I was treated hospitably to a Saturday breakfast of ribs and beer; later, I would claim to an MGoBlog editor that, for some reason, I was too tired to finish this post immediately after the game as I’d planned. At some point, my loathing and compulsion to see a humiliating “beatdown” became something less severe.

Which takes us back to the weather, the buzz, the nerves in the stomach, the multiple national camera crews and TV stages, the booming tailgate speakers, the constant rivers of people in every direction for miles, the trash on the streets—the sensory overload of Saturday’s game experience. It was so different from the Western Michigan-Michigan and LSU-Florida games I’ve been to this year that it feels ridiculous to describe them with the same word.

At one point during Michigan State’s second-half comeback, on a Michigan third down, I took out my phone and took a video from my seat in the 26th row of Section 3 in the lower bowl, holding the camera over my head and slowly turning in a circle.

You can see the mist and the gray sky and feel the circuit-busting sound of the Michigan State crowd, which, goaded by face-rattling PA cues, seemed less to build or explode than to whip back and forth around the stadium in a terrible wave.

In retrospect, regarding the outcome of the contest, I can understand that I should perhaps be peeved about the same things everyone else is peeved about—slow defensive substitutions, critical red zone mistakes, the worst video replay decision in the history of replay or decisions, and so forth. But at the time I was more impressed than upset. Frankly, I was impressed by Michigan, that it could continue to play at all under the circumstances, in the face of all that. 

This series of dispatches is ostensibly about coaches and what they are held responsible for. On that subject, in my little video, way down below, a speck in the maelstrom, you can see Jim Harbaugh. And when I was making the recording, the idea of blaming one person for the outcome of a football game—which involves thousands of interactions between hundreds of players during a four-hour opera of miracles and disasters that takes place in the eye of a hurricane of nature, history, and bouncing-ball luck—didn’t seem necessarily unfair, but it definitely just seemed absurd, like looking at a blue whale and deciding that the only thing about it worth discussing is the expression on its face. Sure, football is a game of decisions, strategies, and details, which is why we like talking about it. But it’s also a game of ancient emotions and unfathomable turns of fate, which is why we like it. Not all of them are going to turn your way. What is one man against the storm?

Comments

Wendyk5

November 2nd, 2021 at 10:33 AM ^

A few plays aside in the Michigan State game, pretty much everything has gone right this year for Harbaugh. There have been opportunities for it to go really wrong. The team hasn't succumbed to road malaise, even in an electric night game atmosphere, as has happened in the past. Maybe Nebraska and Wisconsin aren't world beaters but those are trap games for us in past seasons and we didn't fall into the trap this year. In past seasons, a game like Michigan State would have been lost by double digits, with our team looking great in the first quarter and then slowly losing steam. Michigan State would've gone up by 10 in the 3rd quarter and then our momentum would've died like a car out of gas. Sometimes if you only look for the bad, you miss the good. 

Sam Wheat

November 2nd, 2021 at 11:33 AM ^

I wouldn’t say pretty much everything has gone right for Harbaugh this year. Lost his top WR for the year in game one. Roman Wilson breaks out a bit at Wisconsin and promptly has been hurt for the past three games. That’s just a few major things not including the State game. 
 

All that aside, I appreciate your post and your point still remains regarding looking for the bad and missing the good.

Sam1863

November 2nd, 2021 at 12:18 PM ^

Sometimes if you only look for the bad, you miss the good. 

This is true, and a good example is the play of J.J. McCarthy. Yes, his fumbles (especially the second one) cost Michigan the opportunity to control the ball with a 3-point-lead and put the game away. Many of us, including me, had plenty of acid comments for that mistake.

But I had to remind myself that earlier, he threw a practically-perfect dart in a small window that Andrel Anthony caught for a TD. Excellent play on both ends of that reception.

So yes, he deserves some blame. But he also deserves some credit.

Nothsa

November 2nd, 2021 at 10:21 AM ^

I really enjoyed reading this. As a long time East Lansing resident and an alum of neither school, I've appreciated this rivalry more as the years have passed. I doubt there have ever been as many people in town as there were on Saturday. A ton of MSU fans, a lot of Michigan fans, and many people who were just there for the moment. The mood was electric. The atmosphere intense. But it was civil, at least where I was - the student neighborhood near downtown, MAC Ave, and central and west campus. Lots of Michigan people at MSU parties, little kids in green an maize running around campus together. At game time the tailgating lots were still pretty full of people NOT going to the game. The joint band thing at halftime was cool. The weather was, for Michigan Halloween, fine, meaning it would have sucked about anywhere else. It was a beautiful day for football.

 

mi93

November 2nd, 2021 at 11:00 AM ^

Sadly, the reports I've gotten from friends is not one of civility.  I've had good-to-great experiences at games there, but it's not flawless.

As I imagine it's not always a polite visit to Ann Arbor for some.

For me, being at an away game and meeting great people who happen to be fans of another school/team is some of what makes life so fun.

DonAZ

November 2nd, 2021 at 11:29 AM ^

I recall a Michigan / Notre Dame game back in the early 1990s.  I couldn't get tickets, so I was at a local bar.  There was a group of Notre Dame fans at the table next to me.  When Michigan scored, I bought their table a pitcher, and when ND scored they did the same in return.  By the end of the game were were playfully joshing each other and having a grand old time.

That's what college sports should be like.

Seth

November 2nd, 2021 at 12:22 PM ^

Yeah, I couldn't go because of my son's possible exposure to COVID last week (he tested negative so we're in the clear again) so I gave the tickets to a reader who was taking his son to the game. He texted thank you afterwards but that he's not going to Spartan Stadium again.

He said his mistake was grabbing his hunting jacket, which is made for rain and cold, at the last minute instead of his normal coat. This made him and his 12-year-old targets of a ton of "Walmart Wolverine" crap, to the point where they had to leave their section. They were leaving but ran into some Michigan fans who were also leaving and gave them their seats in the away team zone.

Sec tion 39 Row 45

November 2nd, 2021 at 10:21 AM ^

Harbaugh is the second best dog-bite-man story in Michigan’s college football history. Only Schembechler had a worse time. Heart attack in the eve of his first Rose Bowl. Going 0-forever in bowl games until the end of his career.

 

Im interested to read the book and hope to see more from it going forward.

funkifyfl

November 2nd, 2021 at 10:24 AM ^

Great read, a very talented writer for sure. I really liked the explanation and context for the rivalry.

 

However, the conclusion at the end is silly. The author got caught up in the moment--that's totally understandable. But to then leap to say that THE HEAD COACH of one of the teams isn't central to the outcome of the game is downright wrong.

charblue.

November 2nd, 2021 at 11:54 AM ^

I think you missed the author's point of irony in citing the whole issue of acclaim versus blame in a contest that so dominates the anticipation, spirit and emotional well-being of so many on a controlled battlefield of competition where choice, decision and impact aren't the sole result of its commander no matter what your POV. It's a perspective, not an indictment.

yossarians tree

November 2nd, 2021 at 1:02 PM ^

Anyone who does not acknowledge that "random chance/weird bounce" is often the final determining factor in the outcome of a tightly contested game between dozens of combatants is not a serious person. That some non-participants conclude "we are the champions" and others that "our coach sucks" immediately afterward is ultimately absurd. Nevertheless, we watch.

funkifyfl

November 2nd, 2021 at 1:08 PM ^

"I think you missed the author's point of irony in citing the whole issue of acclaim versus blame in a contest...on a controlled battlefield of competition where choice, decision and impact aren't the sole result of its commander no matter what your POV. It's a perspective, not an indictment."

 

First and foremost, I want to reiterate that I really liked the piece and I hope we get more like it. Thank you to Ben once again.

 

@charblue, I mean, it's only ironic if there's no connection between the coach on the one hand, and the choices and decisions on the other. 

 

"And when I was making the recording, the idea of blaming one person for the outcome of a football game—which involves thousands of interactions between hundreds of players during a four-hour opera of miracles and disasters that takes place in the eye of a hurricane of nature, history, and bouncing-ball luck—didn’t seem necessarily unfair, but it definitely just seemed absurd, like looking at a blue whale and deciding that the only thing about it worth discussing is the expression on its face. ...What is one man against the storm?"

 

Harbaugh has no control over the outcome of a replay or whether Cade has to be treated for an injury at a bad time, but he DOES have control on whether the team opts to kick a FG or go for it. He DOES have input on whether the D is going to try and substitute despite the offense going tempo. I took the last paragraph of the piece to say 'Harbaugh's just one guy, and it's ironic that he gets blamed for a complex series of events with independent actors'. I disagree with that, specifically with respect to that game.

 

IOW, if that piece had been written about the 2016 OSU game, it would've made more sense. But not in light of last Saturday. Then again, perhaps that's the point--maybe this week more blame should fall to Harbaugh, but in the next loss he will get less than he deserves. I see a point in that logic and it makes intuitive sense to me, but considering the specifics of Saturday I got hung up. 

 

 

jackw8542

November 2nd, 2021 at 10:26 AM ^

Great commentary that puts things in perspective. It is hard to be anything but proud of a team that fights so hard right to the final whistle and almost manages to overcome some truly bad luck and some truly horrible officiating: the overruled fumble, the noncatch ruled incomplete and then complete, the nothing like a DPI called against Michigan and the very obvious DPI not called against MSU, to name a few.

UMForLife

November 2nd, 2021 at 12:37 PM ^

To name a few... Ha ha ha. Classic. I can laugh about it now but there should never be this many things we are able to point out casually. They did worst than a weather predicting personnel. At least they are predicting and not double down on their wrong prediction or incorrectly change their prediction after the fact.

Watching From Afar

November 2nd, 2021 at 10:29 AM ^

I have been, up to this point in the season, critical of the certain aspects of the team/coaches (mostly coaches) and thought the 7-0 record was a bit hollow. But, this game didn't affirm those feelings. This wasn't the 2013 game where you come out of it and know the rest of the season is going to be a disaster. That the team is built with duct tape and twigs, finally exposed and likely to lose as many games as they win the rest of the way out. That there lies a huge problem within the program that will kneecap it not only the rest of the season, but for any season that the current situation remains the norm.

I don't particularly have a problem with the outcome of the game. There were instances in-game that I wasn't happy with the play call or decisions made, but at no point was there an absolute boneheaded decision that cost the team the game. I can't look back and be mad at 1 thing in particular like I was post OSU-2018 or Iowa-2016.

The most problematic coaching level issue was the DL substitutions and not getting lined up. That IS the fault of the DC and something that should have been snuffed out after it bit them once or twice. At some point, you have to let the guys on the field ride it out because the alternative is a free 25 yard TD. And if the offense switches strengths, sometimes you need Ojabo to lock down and try and stop the run instead of rushing Hutchinson over to that side to try and do it while never actually getting set. That's just about the only thing that I can place squarely on the coaches.

The false start that took off Haskin's 3rd down conversion happens. It's not a systemic issue. The holding that pushed the offense outside the 10 yard line on 1st and goal, again was not a systemic issue that plagues the offense. This isn't the DL jumping offsides 4 times in a game like last year under Brown or the OL failing to block the guy right in front of their face like under Drevno.

The fumble, while in the moment was terrible and very well may have been the deciding factor at that stage of the game, was random and not indicative of a team that is careless with the ball. They generally don't turn it over.

This game did not see a ton of terrible schematic problems that put Haskins in a no win situation or Cade under pressure, throwing to WRs that had 0 separation. The offense generally worked (but did bog down in the redzone). The final full drive could have seen more running plays to convert short yardage stuff, but they had WRs running open A LOT and Cade just overthrew them 2 or 3 times (Anthony sideline fade, CJ endzone fade, Sainristil corner) and you're dealing with potential clock issues that you don't want to burn in case you need 2 drives. I was fearing a game of split zone into a run blitz for losses of 2 yards multiple times or pass plays that put 2 WRs in the same spot.

Again, I came away from the game disappointed in the outcome, but not perturbed by the overall effort or decisions made. Play that game 10 times and I think Michigan comes away winning more than 5 of them. I think Michigan can win out to the OSU game and finish the season at least 10-2 (assuming my general concerns don't pop up again with bland play calling and poor schematic choices). While the path to getting there might not be all that fulfilling given who the losses might be to, the actual overall result is positive and better than expected even 2-3 weeks ago.

Watching From Afar

November 2nd, 2021 at 11:15 AM ^

 I think Michigan can beat Ohio State.

Ok well I'm not going that far. I only watched the highlights of the OSU-PSU game so I don't have a firm opinion on where OSU is right now, but PSU played them close and is the best team they've faced since Oregon by a mile and PSU has significant flaws. I'll try to watch the full replay at some point and will probably watch the OSU-MSU game closely, but I still expect OSU to come out like they do against Michigan, play to their potential, and it will take a herculean effort to upset them.

BUT, if Michigan can get to that game healthy, without dropping another game, and the staff addresses some of the issues I've been concerned with all year (not reverting back to running 1 yard into piles of dudes and addressing the DL platoon problem) then I will feel more confident. The only other issue that I'm always cognizant of when it comes to college football is college kids getting down and possibly giving up a little/getting distracted enough to impact their performance. I know I struggled with that some when I was a college athlete and hopefully leadership this year from Cade and Hutchinson are enough to keep everyone together.

trueblueintexas

November 2nd, 2021 at 1:43 PM ^

This was the first year I didn't carve out an afternoon to watch the game when it happened. I had other things going on which were more important to me. I had the game on and checked the score about three times. 

Knowing the outcome, I decided watching the game could wait. Monday afternoon I finally had some open time to sit and watch. 

I went in expecting to have moments where I was pissed off at something Michigan did or didn't do. Either the coaches or the players. As the game continued, those moments didn't come. By the time McCarthy fumbled, my first thought was Gus Johnson had been trying to artificially fabricate a problem with rotating QB's and mistakenly used the fumble as an example to prove his point instead of recognizing it for what it was. It was a mistake made between a Freshman QB and a sophomore RB. That happens in college football. Quite often. 

While the outcome was disappointing, the reason wasn't. Michigan got beat. Not by a better team. Not for shooting itself in the foot. Not because the coaches let the players down. They simply got beat because some guys made amazing plays and other guys made mistakes. On both sides. The ledger broke in MSU's favor. While that still pisses me off in the context of the specific game, i'm not pissed off about the season. What happens against PSU & OSU will decide that emotion. 

Wee-Bey Brice

November 2nd, 2021 at 10:39 AM ^

I've been struggling with this idea all week.

It takes me back to 2015 when Black O'Neill dropped the punt vs MSU. I couldn't in good faith blame Harbaugh for that loss. Maybe he deserved blame for not fighting harder for a first down the plays before, but still coached well enough to win.

In reviewing this years game, it's the same thing. There are mistakes you can absolutely put on him and others that make it seem like this is just the unluckiest man on Earth.

It's a thin line.

Stay.Classy.An…

November 2nd, 2021 at 11:13 AM ^

The problem I have with that game is there should have been a max protect called for the punter. Especially given the situation, the opponent, how much that game meant, etc. He failed to appropriately align his Special Teams and that led to O'Neill not being able to do anything with the ball because defenders were already in his face. The most confusing part for me is, why didn't O'Neill just fall on the ball? Why didn't (not that I have proof) Harbaugh tell that kid a million times, if shit goes to hell, JUST FALL ON THE BALL, JUST FALL ON THE BALL, JUST FALL ON THE BALL. 

Is Harbaugh directly responsible for the bad luck with the snap? Nope, stuff happens. But, Harbaugh is responsible for proper protection during a punt (of that magnitude) and for letting the punter know what to do if stuff goes south. I know Michigan has a Special Teams Coach, but Harbaugh needs to have the final say going into the most important play of the game. 

Watching From Afar

November 2nd, 2021 at 11:52 AM ^

Max protect yes and fall on the ball also yes. However, that play was doomed because of the dropped snap. Max protect would have helped the optics, but not the mechanics of the punt.

I timed it out a few years ago and the second O'Neill lost the ball AND had to turn around to pick it up was the end. MSU didn't deliver defenders to O'Neill much faster than a normal punt block. They didn't have a Khaleke Hudson or CJ running full speed untouched to lay out and block the kick. MSU was going to block that kick no matter what because even if Michigan was in max protect, O'Neill was going to take 2+ seconds from catch to making contact with his foot (and he was facing the wrong direction). The sweet spot for punts from catch to kick is ~1.4 seconds with an overall time from snap to kick of ~2 - 2.2 seconds. O'Neill would have taken longer than the snap to kick time just between him catching and trying to kick it. Punts that take as long as what O'Neill would have taken are going to get blocked assuming the defense is trying to block it (we've seen Aussie punters roll out for 3 seconds before kicking but that's when the defense is setting up a return and sending 1 guy to make sure the punt is actually kicked).

That's one of those ones where Michigan did stuff wrong, but nothing that foundationally screwed it up, and MSU didn't do anything otherworldly to get to O'Neill. It wasn't a schematic win for MSU and it wasn't a coaching error by Michigan. It was the dropped snap that had the punter trying to roundhouse kick the ball Bruce Lee style 3 seconds after the snap.

PeteM

November 2nd, 2021 at 10:43 AM ^

Not really sure how to respond other than that it was a fun read. Tim Alberta appeared on the David Axelrod podcast a few months ago and sounds like an interesting guy. My godparents (boht Michigan grads) are in academia and tell me that for a state Michigan's size the state university structure isn't typical.  A lot of states (Iowa for instance) structure their largest higher education institutions to be somewhat specialized -- Iowa is strong in social sciences/liberal arts and Iowa State in engineering.  My understanding that Indiana and Purdue have a similar divide. Michigan and MSU offer similar ranges of programs -- liberal arts, engineering, business etc. That may contribute to some of tension since it's harder to cooexist with someone trying to do the same thing ou are than it is with someone whose strengths are distinct.

DonAZ

November 2nd, 2021 at 10:59 AM ^

Virginia / Virginia Tech is another good example.

I've mentioned before ... Michigan State, for all the talk of it being a "cow college," has some surprisingly good non-agricultural programs.  One in particular: it has a very highly rated physics department. 

Carpetbagger

November 2nd, 2021 at 2:18 PM ^

State is a good school. The only problem it really has is Michigan existing in comparison.

I get why those of you who graduated from M have a negative opinion of State, it's because you can. For those of us went to neither (GVSU here), both would have been a step up (that I couldn't afford).

1VaBlue1

November 2nd, 2021 at 10:44 AM ^

That home video encapsulated the game for me.  It put perspective right back to where football is - a game played by people.  Watching that video, it looked and felt more like some uncontrolled action on the field than it does when slick network cameras are smoothing out everything and making each stride, cut, and block look deliciously smooth.  How nice would it be to watch a game with nothing but stadium noise and all-22 film showing the gloriously not-smooth action on the field, like we were back watching high school football on Friday night?

brad

November 2nd, 2021 at 3:47 PM ^

ESPN airs some games on ESPN U with no commentator, just the sky cam and a single microphone.  I watched a bit of Ole Miss vs. Arkansas this way.  Its much more like you're there at the game and you're right, the feel while watching is completely different and, in a way, better.

Blarvey

November 2nd, 2021 at 10:54 AM ^

"Moreover, because this other university has gotten so busy creating investment bank CEOs, Silicon Valley billionaires, New York Times political journalists, and so forth, the job of actually educating the teachers and engineers and business-administration administrators who make the state of Michigan actually work—who have built a civilization and a way of life in this beautiful but essentially inhospitable peninsular forest—falls to the other school."

This is exactly why so many people can't stand UM and its fans. Most people move on after graduation and don't feel like they need to use their college as some proxy for how good they are and for how much of an impact they have in the world. I get having pride in your school but the above is pretty much what every school does and if you really believe that every UM grad is a billionaire CEO then I think the reality will be very disappointing to you.

20-30 years ago the Michigan brand probably resonated a lot more but it's just not the case anymore. So many schools have passed UM in terms of outcomes, prices, rigor, and opportunities but they don't seem to brag about it like UM alum do.

blueheron

November 2nd, 2021 at 11:32 AM ^

"20-30 years ago the Michigan brand probably resonated a lot more but it's just not the case anymore."

I think you have that a little backwards. I'd argue that Michigan is a slightly more prestigious place than it was 20-30 years ago. It's solidly in the "Public Ivy" discussion and I believe [1] the average student that gets in nowadays is a slight cut above the average student from the '80s and '90s.

You could make the argument that the increasing percentage of out-of-state students is a money grab, and I'd listen, but I think it's made Michigan more competitive.

[1] No handy data, sorry, but I can remember seeing some recently. Small example: Michigan and "K" College (Kalamazoo) used to be peers as far as ACT and SAT scores were concerned. Michigan was comfortably ahead the last time I looked.

Blarvey

November 2nd, 2021 at 12:06 PM ^

That is not at all the case from my perspective (don't live in Michigan, may be different there).

Carnegie Mellon, Georgia Tech, Emory, Rice, Illinois, UW, NC State, Arizona State, Olin, Purdue, Wesleyan, Grinnell, etc. have been attracting more and more of the students that may have gone to UM in the past. It is not necessarily the university's fault, I am just saying the power of the branding is not what is used to be and though some may have based their opinions of these schools on what happened in the past, the reality is they are evolving, attracting top students from around the country and world, and have flattened a lot of the advantages one got from a school like UM.

It's always been in a tier below Harvard, Stanford, MIT, and so on, but I think that tier has gotten bigger and the distinction of Michigan has faded.

Blarvey

November 2nd, 2021 at 8:00 PM ^

I would have agreed with you if it were twenty years ago but ASU isn't just a joke anymore.

 "ASU is in the top 10 of all universities worldwide for U.S. patents awarded in 2018, tied with the University of Michigan."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arizona_State_University#Research_and_Institutes

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thunderbird_School_of_Global_Management

And this attitude is exactly what I am talking about - nobody cares where people went to college. All that matters are skills, what you can produce, and how you communicate. 

This is a good thing. We want a lot of good to great schools in the U.S. to educate people across the country and world. We want to lead in research and have open discussions. No need to be territorial or a snob or forget that things can change.
 

brad

November 2nd, 2021 at 4:00 PM ^

People from Carnegie Mellon, Illinois and Georgia Tech brag plenty.  They are great schools, and they shouldn't be judged for it, but they certainly brag.

To your other point, I came from out of state to study at Michigan, and I got an elite level engineering education, which prepared me to produce at a high level at the very top of my industry, which happens to be centered in New York, Chicago and London.  I wound up in New York.  Many of us could have stayed in Michigan and knocked out a great living and life there, it is an amazing state and I get back there as much as possible.  But when we are capable of operating with skill and confidence at the global centers of our industries, it is natural for us to go to those centers and do that.  

The fact that UM produces thousands of people like this every year should not be used as a point of criticism, but I can acknowledge that its probably one of the reasons we can come off as arrogant and dismissive.  I'm happy that I was able to pass through Michigan and move on with life elsewhere, but I am not dismissive of the state or the great people of Michigan.  Regardless of where anyone went to school, Michigan is filled with a huge handful of really amazing people.

Markley Mojo

November 2nd, 2021 at 10:57 AM ^

M Engineering and the Ross school are among the best engineering/business schools in the world, but plenty of us stick around in Michigan. Don’t know why that line bugged me, but it does. 

Ben Mathis-Lilley

November 2nd, 2021 at 11:13 AM ^

Sorry, yeah, didn't mean to disparage these programs at all, to be clear! Should've been more explicit about it, but I was trying to kind of narrate how someone from MSU would feel about it in their head, doing the kind of generalization and exaggeration that we all do. I think there are many reasons for UM to feel good about its own community (which obviously I'm a part of; I identify with it more than the actual college I went to!) and hope to get into those at length not just in the book but in the tOSU dispatch later this month.