Not sure how I feel about that last part.. Hope it's not what you're speculating and that it's just unfortunate for Teric
Down Two Joneses and a Pace
Yesterday's release of the 2011 media guide brought up a few questions about some guys not on the roster. I just got my answers from Athletic Dept. spokesman David Ablauf and they're un-good:
"Kellen Jones is no longer an enrolled student at the University."
Reason was neither asked for nor given. This is the end. One of you who doesn't like me gets to be the one to tell Brian we chose to post his 2011 Recruiting Profile right before some of the rumors hit the Twitters.
Impact: Kellen was considered one of the few 2011 recruits who might contribute immediately, and was expected to challenge for a spot on the two-deep at WLB. Short-term this will mean one of the other freshmen linebackers has a shot to play early. MLB/WLB depth chart currently reads Demens and ???s. Down the road it shouldn't matter so much once the 2012 class of Ross, Jenkins-Stone, Bolden and Ringer arrive.
As for some other roster incongruities, why was Christian Pace left off the roster, and did Teric Jones get listed with no number while two other guys switched to his 14? Because the gods hath no mercy:
"Christian Pace was medicaled; meaning his playing career is over due to an injury ... [answers other questions] ... Teric is also medicaled."
Impact of Losing Teric: Minimal. Jones is a 2009 scat-back who came in behind several guys in the '08 and '09 classes. He was part of the Cass Tech clan who re-established that pipeline. Teric did what he could to help, bouncing to DB when warm bodies were needed, but he made only a Darnell Hood-ian impact and moved back to RB, where he was a spare part behind 6-7 other guys. Teric lost the end of the 2010 season to a knee injury against Illinois.*
Impact Christian: Bloody Argh. Pace was the only OL recruit of the 2010 class, and those of us in bloggerland were ludicrously excited about him because he was an under the radar recruit whom smart coaches were hard after. Also he's as much of a David Molk clone as Taylor Lewan was a Jake Long clone coming out of high school. There's a huge difference between proto-Molk and Molk, but Pace's high school tape (as in just watch every play) is a series of the ball being snapped followed by something being shot out of a cannon and ending 4 yards downfield on top of a pitiable fool. He was perfect for the spread 'n shred, which suggests he's not perfect for non-spread-and-shred. I still had unreasonable hope, but even general hope for Pace in a Hoke Manball offense was pretty high. This year he was behind Molk and Khoury, who has been serviceable. Down the line this opens the path for Miller, or else one of the big guards-like objects from 2011 and 2012. Further injuries to the undermanned OL will result in wanton trotting out of an Angry-[Position]-Hating God tag.
Last piece of info, which isn't any info.
No change on Darryl Stonum's status.
I'll let Tim follow up with specifics since everyone I would call will be at his presser anyway.
* I hate to throw this into a post about one of Michigan's best academic performers and team players losing the 2nd half of his career, but considering the staff plans to sign the full 26 in 2012, this feels a little…convenient. #oversigning fears. EDIT: This is NOT an accusation and as posters have pointed out it would be a bad idea for the coaches to pull a "convenient" move with a kid from our biggest in-state pipeline. It bears mentioning only because it would arch an eyebrow at another school, and because this space has been critical of those other schools when there's even a whiff. Discussion cont'd in the comments.
Losing Pace and Jones is decidedly inconvenient.
We don't know, but suggesting he might have been pushed off the team is uncalled for at this point in time. Maybe Teric didn't want to risk further damage to his knee if he was only going to be on special teams. Sounds like a smart kid with a good atitude, so maybe he wants to focus now on academics and becoming a professional in something other than football.
To pull a "convenient" one on a kid from a feeder school like Cass Tech would be... unadvisable, in my opinion. I think the coaches would see that angle - although of course we can't rule anything out. Hopefully a reporter will reach out to Teric for his story, now that he's off the squad.
Losing Pace is going to hurt down the line mightily.
Teric is a good kid, sorry to lose him.
Along with the Kellen Jones news, this has been a rough week. But it does give us insight into Hoke's recruiting strategy. There are more spots available than we previously thought. No oversigning at all.
Players leaving the team due to 'injury' allowing you to sign more players is oversigning. Not sure where you are getting your relief from.
I think there is a difference between a coach using an injury as an excuse to get rid of a kid and a kid having a legit career ending injury.
We have no means of telling the difference.
"suffered a season-ending knee injury against the Fighting Illini."
He was hurt, and was hurt badly, before Hoke's arrival and well before the end of the season. Was out for the spring game as well. The injury is not faked, and you're engaging in character assasination against a coach who hasn't been in place long enough to coach one game.
We'll know soon enough if Hoke is pulling Saban-esque shenanigans or not. If 4-5 kids are medicaled each year, we'll know what's up. You're jumping to conclusions. Period.
Character assasination? Let's calm down. I haven't accused anyone of anything. "Season ending" isn't necessarily career ending. I don't trust Hoke or distrust him and you shouldn't either unless you know him personally. There is a competitive advantage to be gained in liberally using medical hardships. If you care about the kids as much as winning it's something you should always keep an eye on.
Oversigning takes place the summer after the recruits sign... Not the summer before.
No it isn't. Forcing kids into grayshirts after they've signed and giving medicals to guys without documented histories of injuries to sign more guys is.
Both Pace (back) and Jones (knee) have documented medical issues. We've known this for months and medicals have been hinted at for just as long.
I believe Pace is also (knee), while Talbott The Larger is (back), and may soon follow the medical path.
You're right. Mixed up Pace and Talbott's injuries. And re: Talbott, Scout seems to think a medical for him is a foregone conclusion although that isn't confirmed.
Losing Pace is a bad thing, was looking forward to Molk 2.0 ... O-line is thin now.
On the other issue - oversigning - if the injuries are legit, then we've got no business talking about Hoke making room on the roster. Especially if Pace's and T Jone's careers are over.
As I panic somewhat prematurely about our center position in 2013, I thought, "what about Patrick Omameh"?
If Miller and/or Stacey aren't ready at center, might Patrick Omameh be an option at center as a senior? If so, our 2013 line has options with Lewan/Schofield at the tackles and some combination of Bryant/Posada/Kalis/Magnuson at the guards.
I don't think he's too big for center, and as a senior he ought to be able to handle the line calls. Any chance he played some center in HS?
So I have avoided any and all effort to search for rumors about kellen jones in the hopes that they wouldn't be true. Now that we have confirmed he isn't part of this team (which REALLY sucks!), can SOMEONE enlighten us to the various rumors out there? Obviously we know these are rumors and take then with a grain of salt, but when will we know more?
A teammate said something about assaulting a woman, he posted it online but deleted it. I want to stress this is pure rumor. But if a guy on the team is saying it and this guy is gone, *shrugs*.
Assuming (and it's only an assumption) that Hoke/Borges will transition from a more fat free, zone-blocking style of OL to a more road grader style, my hope is that supreme nimbleness of the sort demonstrated by Molk and rumored by Pace will be less necessary, and maybe one of the interior OL recruits can learn how to snap the ball to an under-center QB (*sigh*) and pound on the opposing NT.
I don't recall hearing Pace was injured. When did this happen? In the spring?
because I remember in spring being pleasantly surprised to hear that recovery sounded more possible, since there had been reports weeks or months before that his injury might be career-threatening.
You're right. From what I understand, Pace had knee problems before he even stepped on campus. There was a lot of talk last season about him probably never being able to play because of it, so I think it's safe to say it wasn't a recent thing
"Pace . . . was an under the radar recruit whom smart coaches were hard after. "
If that is so, how did he end up here under RR?
Maybe RR is a pretty bright coach? Doesn't make him a good manager, which is what 80% of a head coaches job is, but he was a pretty smart guy on offense.
the meme that he wasn't bright, which is objectively untrue, period. He turned out to be the wrong coach for us, but anyone that says he wasn't a bright offensive mind simply doesn't know football. Stoops, Meyer and coaches of that ilk don't go visiting a coach to learn the fine points of their offensive scheme if said coach is not bright. Those coaches felt RR had something to teach them, and I'll take that show of respect over disgruntled M fans any day.
My comment was of course made in jest; its real purpose was to raise the ire of the folks who find personal insult in any minutely unfavorable mention of RR. I see it worked.
It was an iRResponsible, iRRational, and iRRelevant comment.
You were intentionally being a douche to make a douchey point to call out other people on the information superhighway?
number of kids we take this year. Jones and Pace were supposed to be the future of this team, in a way, at MLB and Center. Attrition was expected, but I think those 2 kids at those 2 spots could be considered "extra" because they'll now have to be replaced.
Maybe, but that will entirely depend on what else happens. Jones dismissal and 3 medicals still only puts us at 22. If we're looking at 26 then we still need some transfers/non-renewals etc.
FWIW, some of the premium site writers have said all of these medicals were anticipated and factored in to the staff's plan to take 25-26 guys this class. None of these departures (except for K.Jones) were totally unexpected.
But I can't imagine if someone wanted to they couldn't conservative come up with 2-3 non-5th years. And if we go thru August and post season with NO transfers, it'd be pretty miraculous.
at numerous positions yet no clear starters so more attrition isn't a stretch, but I have to think we'd have gone after Evan Boehm or madea priority of some other Center if they expected us to have Pace leave on medical.
The reason I'm not too concerned about oversigning quite yet, is because Teric got medicaled 6 months before the recruiting class is even signed. If the team has the schollarship to spare for this season, then the extra body during practice would be beneficial. If we see a lot more players medicaled before next fall, or if we oversign come February, then I'll get angry.
I'd say it's shady if we knew for certain (after LOI's are signed) that there needed to be some attrition to get under the 85 cap. And again, why cut a guy who at the very least can play on scout team and I assume probably simulate an opponent better than a walk on?
Count me as one who likes you, Misopogon, but I think you'd need a little more evidence (e.g., Jones playing after the injury) to responsibly make/imply that allegation on the front page like this.
You must be new here. Welcome.
Because they are generally very rare, except among players who are not liable to see the field at schools who are oversigning.
At this point it's just a "I'm watching" thing. I went back and forth on whether it's worth even mentioning, but it is worth mentioning. We have made a lot of noise in the past about oversigning and probably will again in the future, and it's hypocritical not to mention it when the same at another school would make an eyebrow twitch a little. If I don't mention it I'm not being honest in my coverage. If I do mention it, even as a possibility covered in as much "just a fear" language as I can muster, I'm a "cynical non-fan."
On the road to Alabama, Hoke and staff have barely passed Cabela's, but given the focus on this issue in this space I thought it relevant to watch for anyone who's even getting on U.S. 23.
If all other schools have, on average. 1.18 medical hardships, how many do we have? How many does it take for you to start your watch? 4? 5? 6?
I know we must have more than 2 (I honestly don't know), for that would be a curiously low number to instigate a watch (its difficult to have .18 of a person). Who are the others?
On top of that, the Pace injury obviously is legitimate. So if Pace hadn't gotten hurt, Misopogon, you wouldn't have made that oversigning suggestion (since we'd be at one)? This is extremely poor use of "evidence."
This does need to be watched. I hate to say it, but a lot of our roster is made up of people who aren't sized / skilled for what the current staff wants. How they're handled is a legimate concern.
Medical scholarships are rare. If Michigan starts handing out medicals like hotcakes it's fishy no matter when they do it.
I see what you're saying but it needs to be stressed at this time that all the guys who were medicaled, this has been hinted at for a long time. It's not as if any of these problems have popped up out of the blue.
It's unfortunate that certain schools have abused the medical hardships so that we have to have this discussion but for these kids in particular, nothing seems fishy. Career-ending injuries actually do happen sometimes.
Do we have any long term statistical data, other than the very small window shown in the chart, and oversigning.com's rants? Have they actually shown how often it happens across the board, or are they picking and choosing their stats to make their point?
And beneath you. And the flaccid "Edit" doesn't do much. The pretty chart has pretty colors, but it's a ridiculously small sample size and means nothing but illustrates Bama is way excessive. Anecdotally it seems to me that we have one of these every year or every other year, which isn't that far off, but maybe significant. Two in one season isn't common, but going a year without one would be too. If your looking at the non-Bama number, at least a ten year span for the SEC would be nice. Or even better, a look at Michigan from at least Carr through the present to see our numbers.
Basically saying something is fishy is an accusation, not a "this bears further watch". But the fact that timeline and logic doesn't really make much sense, it comes off as still more sour grapes from those that would rather cling to a funk of a failed era than be happy we recruiting our asses off. You don't have to worry about Hoke working with class or character. Continued remarks like this in these spaces is beginning to make me wonder if the same can be said here.
Especially with our recruiting situation, I think this is pretty clearly a "good result" in terms of strictly for the benefit of wins and losses or at least you can easily make that argument
That in and of itself is a perverse incentive, and one that we(you) SHOULD keep an eye on
Making a big deal about 2, or even 3, being above the average is ridiculous. Aren't you all the ones saying don't just use simple statistics? If the avearge is above 1, clearly some teams have had at least 2. Further, we actually have heard in all three cases there were underlying injuries. How can you be annoyed at Freep journalism when you throw thi out with no actual research?
For instance, why don't you actually interview someone involved? If we start to see this happen where players complain, or where there is no history of significant injury, it might bear watching, but till then?
That average of just above 1 is for a three year period. Having 2 or possibly 3 (Talbott) in one season is significantly above average and is closing in on Alabama's 4/year. Throw in the fact that it's happening during the change in regimes and Mispogen is right, fans of certain schools that this blog has been ripping for the practice are going to raise an eyebrow.
Now, I hope and think that any medical hardship Michigan hands out is legitimate. But to not even acknowledge that it will look fishy to certain people is just sticking your head in the sand.
I really do want us (Michigan) being honest and up front about these things. I don't want to play the part of a hypocrite. It is good to be aware of things and monitor them, I don't see any issue doing this, it is called due diligence.
Cosign. Hoke hasn't done a damn thing to merit this suspicion.
On Teric from March 15:
Hoke: "Teric Jones is out for sure. Mike Shaw broke his hand the other day, falling on the turf and trying to catch himself. So he'll be limited on Saturday for sure," but will play with a cast after that. Teric Jones's injury is a "significant" one to his knee. It's too early to say whether he'll be out or limited in the fall."
If he got Saban'd (which I don't think happened) then Hoke really plans ahead. Still, for good measure: