Brady Hoke says it takes 5-6 years to build a program
Brady talking on his new XM show. Sorry for the Freep Link.
http://www.freep.com/story/sports/college/university-michigan/wolverine…
For those who don't want to click some notes:
Hoke says it takes 5-6 years to build a program, especially if you are changing an offensive scheme.
Hoke says he expects Michigan to surprise this year.
However, this was after he referenced how Jim Tressel left Urban Meyer with a loaded football team, so he was able to win quickly.
Hoke then said "The recruiting our staff did really fits to the style of offense and style of defense. That's something that's going to help them."-when asked if Harbaugh will have a good first year.
At first I was glad that he expects Michigan to succeed, but he only made it two sentences after being asked about Harbaugh to reference how his recruits will help Jim, when the question had nothing to do with him.
Is Brady bitter and planning to take credit for any Harbaugh success in year one?
August 18th, 2015 at 7:00 PM ^
It takes that long because Hoke had some real duds as assistant coaches. Smith and Ferrigno are not B1G caliber coaches and should have never been hired in the first place.
August 18th, 2015 at 7:02 PM ^
August 18th, 2015 at 7:03 PM ^
Nice guy but he was clearly in over his head. If you are going to stand on the sidelines without a headset on, at least keep an eye on the play clock and be ready to call timeout before it hits zero. Hoke didn't run the offense, defense, special teams or even his own film sessions. It finally feels like the head coach is running every aspect of the program and boy is that refreshing.
August 18th, 2015 at 7:07 PM ^
August 18th, 2015 at 7:08 PM ^
We as a community need to find a way to get over our fired coaches. We already seem incapable of letting any Rich Rodriguez comment turn into a 300-post internecine battle. Let's not do the same for Brady Hoke.
August 18th, 2015 at 7:11 PM ^
August 18th, 2015 at 11:58 PM ^
If this team wins double digit games I will give the lion's share of the credit to Hoke, minus whatever contribution guys like Rudock or Higdon make who are here because of Harbaugh.
Coaching can swing you a game or two at most. It doesn't make a team good or bad (SEE Brady Hoke's varying records at Michigan, or if you prefer Rich Rodriguez's varying records at WVU, UM and UA, or if you insist, Jim Harbaugh's varying records at Stanford and the continued success they had after his departure).
August 19th, 2015 at 1:59 AM ^
I don't usually log on just to disagree but Hoke would get most of the credit? He coached the way most of us would coach on a video game; bring in what you think are good assistants and what the computer tells you are top HS players and then bring absolutely nothing to the table yourself.
The team has good talent but wasn't prepared, wasn't taught, was extremely docile even if they did like their coaches in a milk and cookies sort of way and accepted getting their asses kicked by teams that had no business doing so because I think deep down they knew they weren't getting top coaching. Harbaugh will completely change that with the same players and I can easily see a 5 game swing just on changing coaches, hell Drevno coaching the OL alone is worth at least 2 wins.
I mean, do you see Brady Hoke even trying to get another QB for this season? No Gardner, Ryan, Clark or Funchess, this could have been a 4 win team or worse w/ no coaching change.
August 19th, 2015 at 2:20 AM ^
Brady Hoke had a fantastic season and won a major bowl game here at UM (something college hall of famer Lloyd Carr did just twice in 13 years and a feat it took Bo 10 tries to accomplish over a couple of decades).
If our current team (that went 5-7 last year and lost all the guys you mention who I think will be missed quite a bit) has good talent, people should be pissed about 2011, because that team should have won the fucking Super Bowl if the same coach went 11-2 with those guys.
August 19th, 2015 at 4:01 AM ^
He won with Denard Robinson and more than a little bit of luck. Plus certainly the defense got a boost going from Gerg to Mattison. I mean I get your point, but you're not really comparing Hoke to Bo overall? Having to beat a Woody Hayes Ohio St. team or losing to a '75 Oklahoma wasn't quite the same road as playing Virginia Tech poorly but winning.
Maybe it was going from a harder edged coach to a nice guy the first year, that does happen (and it happens in reverse too) but Hoke's case seems to be that if you recruit a dozen Top 200 guys per year they should be pretty decent by the time they are seniors. The problem is that anyone could make that argument recruiting for Michigan and it wasn't sustainable once you have a track record for recruits to look at; as the results kept getting worse, more and more of the top talent wasn't going to show up here.
August 18th, 2015 at 7:15 PM ^
Are the current players at Michigan Hoke's recruits? Most of them yes.
Did Hoke recruit players who fit alright with Harbaughs system? Yes I think so.
If Michigan does well this year, will Hoke deserve some of the credit? At least a little I think.
I don't see the problem.
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August 18th, 2015 at 8:18 PM ^
August 18th, 2015 at 7:21 PM ^
August 18th, 2015 at 7:24 PM ^
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August 18th, 2015 at 11:45 PM ^
As much as I would like to call Urban Meyer a poopy poo poo head, he did win national championships at two different schools. I don't think they were all because he just stepped into a good situation.
August 18th, 2015 at 7:28 PM ^
Bo said coaches need 4 years to build a program. Hoke got that at Michigan and failed. 11-2, 8-5, 7-6 and 5-7 is not the way you build a program.
August 18th, 2015 at 9:12 PM ^
August 18th, 2015 at 7:30 PM ^
August 18th, 2015 at 7:34 PM ^
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August 18th, 2015 at 7:47 PM ^
August 18th, 2015 at 8:03 PM ^
Brady Hoke did not recruit well, especially on offense. That is why his team got worse every year. His additions to the 2011 class produced two guys who started (Clark and Taylor) and a punter. At QB he picked up Russell Bellomy (left the program after one disastrous appearance) in 2011 and then didn't sign a QB in 2012. At RB he added Rawls (left program) and then picked up Drake Johnson (370 career yards after three years) and Norfleeet (left program). At WR he didn't add anyone in 2011 (to a class that had zero WR) then spent half of Devin Funchess' career trying to make him play TE. At TE (a position Hoke claimed was of utmost importance) he picked up Chris Barnett in 2011 (left program pretty much the moment he arrived) and AJ Williams in 2012 (5 catches for 35 yards in three years in addition to some oft-suspect blocking). Chris Bryant was the only OL added in 2011 (left program) and the 2012 class has yet to produce an elite player/prospect. The 2013 class failed to produce an impact player in years 1 or 2.
Hoke walked into a team that was good out of the gate. Harbaugh won in year four because in his first recruiting class he signed Andrew Luck (much better than no one) and OL like Martin and DeCastro (who were all-conference honorees as RS freshmen and total studs in year four). Tressel signed Maurice Clarett in his first class. Carroll signed Mike Williams in his first class and added Reggie Bush and LenDale White in his second. Saban brought in Julio Jones and Mark Ingram (who won the Heisman as a true sophomore). Meyer brought in Tebow and Harvin at UF and JT Barrett, Ezekiel Elliott, and Joey Bosa at OSU. Rodriguez brought in Denard, Lewan, Fitz, and Gallon. Hoke brought in Funchess and a bunch of guys we're hoping may be okay as upperclassmen, while Harbaugh scrambles to bring in transfers and clear enough roster space to bring in a big class.
Building a program takes a lot longer when you drop the ball coming out of the starting blocks like Hoke did.
August 18th, 2015 at 9:03 PM ^
But there are a few holes there. For instance, Hoke did bring in some good tight ends, just not the first couple years.
August 18th, 2015 at 10:48 PM ^
Turns out, finding a few tight ends who may very well turn into good players five years into your tenure (and I do like both Butt and Hill a lot as players), isn't how you build an elite program, or even a decent one.
If you're comparing those guys to the elite offensive talent, especially when I didn't even really look at offensive linemen or TE at most of those schools I mentioned (Saban also signed Barrett Jones in that first class) and didn't look at places like Oregon or FSU or anywhere else that has had recent success at top notch programs, then my point is pretty much made.
This is the same argument I was forced to make the last year and a half, but it still holds. When you don't have anything like the kind of players top programs have, expecting to be as good or better than them is not smart and bound to end in disappointment.
August 18th, 2015 at 9:33 PM ^
Purple, your arguments are typically fantastic, but you're cherrypicking in this one to make your point. You point heavily to the 2011 three-weeks-to-recruit class and ignore Hoke's better classes. You point out Chris Barnett and AJ Williams as TE failures but not Butt and Hill. Your knowledge and ability to debate far outstrip mine and even I can poke a few holes in this one.
Bottom line in my view is that like most people, Hoke did some things very well (as acknowledged by Jim Hackett) and did poorly with others. Brian was right in 2011 when he said Hoke was a bad hire, but we don't need to villify everything the guy did now that it's over.
edit: beat to the punch by Timmmmay while I took a call. Oops.
August 18th, 2015 at 10:59 PM ^
I do think there is a little more talent in the latter Hoke classes than in the first ones, but I'm giving him a fair comparison with other coaches who actually recruited well. Those classes are also small though (basically one full class between 2014 and 2015) and will come back to bite us down the road. The guys we think of as the best in the game brought in elite talent in their first full recruiting class (2012 for Hoke) and that talent had produced on the field well before the coach completed his fourth season on the job.
And I'm not villifying, just explaining. Plenty of people are saying he doesn't know how to coach or develop players or that his staff were less than competent. This is provably false. Jeremy Gallon set the single season receiving record under Hoke. Molk won the Rimington Award. Lewan was 2-time B1G lineman of the year. Denard and Fitz both ran for 1,000+ yards.
The problem is that Brady Hoke didn't recruit players who are/were as good as those guys and the team got worse and worse as they departed. So yeah, when you don't really know how to build a team in the way Harbaugh, Rodriguez, Meyer, Tressel, Carroll, Saban, et. al do, then you probably think it is a lot harder and takes a lot longer than it does.
August 19th, 2015 at 10:03 AM ^
Villifying was a poor choice in responding to you specifically. I regret that. It was a reaction to the tone of other posters who refuse to acknowledge that Hoke might have done something remotely positive. As usual, your response is measured and reasonable and you go so far as to say that yes, Hoke can too develop players, which runs quite contrary to the meme here.
August 18th, 2015 at 7:55 PM ^
August 18th, 2015 at 7:56 PM ^
August 18th, 2015 at 8:02 PM ^
If his record had an upward trajectory over his tenure here, I would've been inclined to believe him, but there was nothing indicating that if he'd even been given 10 years, that this program would've found solid footing. He's a great recruiter, and perhaps a solid position coach, but a terrible major college head football coach.
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August 18th, 2015 at 8:04 PM ^
August 18th, 2015 at 8:21 PM ^
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August 18th, 2015 at 11:05 PM ^
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August 19th, 2015 at 1:18 PM ^
Yes... good coaches ARE outliers.
Brady Hoke wasn't an outlier. Brady Hoke was everyman. Brady Hoke was the mediocre, center of the bell curve of college coaches.
August 18th, 2015 at 8:06 PM ^
August 18th, 2015 at 8:09 PM ^
August 18th, 2015 at 8:27 PM ^
August 18th, 2015 at 9:22 PM ^
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August 18th, 2015 at 8:10 PM ^
August 18th, 2015 at 9:06 PM ^
August 18th, 2015 at 8:16 PM ^
why anyone should take seriously "how to build a program" quips from a coach with a career winning of 0.527?
August 18th, 2015 at 8:20 PM ^
Knowing Clapper's speaking skills, his radio presence will suffer the same fate as the football teams he coached at Michigan.
Guys a loser, won the lottery for 4 years, but deep down still a pud.
August 18th, 2015 at 8:22 PM ^
August 18th, 2015 at 8:33 PM ^
In today's world you do not get 6 years to correct a situation. Look at all the coaches that were winning national titles in the second or third year.
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August 18th, 2015 at 8:39 PM ^
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August 19th, 2015 at 1:37 AM ^
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August 18th, 2015 at 8:43 PM ^
Dan Wolken @DanWolken 1h1 hour ago
Brady Hoke said today it takes “5-6 years” to build a program. Nah Brady, that’s just you. http://www.freep.com/story/sports/co...hoke/31938297/ …
Dan Wolken @DanWolken 58m58 minutes ago
Meanwhile, 14 of the last 15 coaches who have won national titles won at least 9 games by their second year.
Dan Wolken @DanWolken 46m46 minutes ago
What gets lost in Hoke’s theory: You don’t have to win a title in five years. But that’s plenty of time to know whether you’re capable of it
Dan Wolken @DanWolken 30m30 minutes ago
Of last 18 coaches to win national titles (counting Saban and Urban twice), 13 did it within their first four years at a school.
August 18th, 2015 at 8:46 PM ^
well he is right....it does take HIM 5 or 6 years to build a program, thats the problem.
August 18th, 2015 at 11:30 PM ^
August 18th, 2015 at 9:21 PM ^
Hoke had a senior laden OL, DL, Borges not yet trying to restrict Denard, etc.
Good coaches do not go from 11 wins, to 8 wins, to 7 wins, and finally to 5 wins.
Nick Saban at Bama went from winning 7 games his first year to at least 10 wins every year after.
Harbaugh at Stanford went from 4 wins, to 5, to 8 and then 12. Stanford as we well know was a dumpster fire before Jim took over.
Hole game the program plenty of talent. Now Harbaugh and his vastly superior coaching staff can develop them.
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