Why Devin Gardner should not start (LAST THREAD ON THIS TOPIC)
So with the game going the way it did I have seen countless posts calling for Denard to be benched and starting DG.
Reasons for . . .
Deving fits the Borges system much better and is a better passer than Denard which is true. He is 6' 4" and has throwing lanes that quite honestly Denard does not. Devin is very gifted and would be great in a true west coast scheme because he does have the athletic ability to be called more than just a scrambler. His elusivness would cause huge problems and open up some great things down field for him to use his just a little stronger arm than Denard.
Reasons why not . . .
The primary reason that I dont think DG should start is because of our offensive line. I dont know what the deal is, but they look as though they are pretty stagnet, and not really improving. In the the games we played where the other team actually had a Defensive Line (ND, MSU) our unning game was horrible. Yes, yes recruited for a different system I know, and there is truth to that. However, they have not done as well as I hoped they would. There is still time so we'll see. The primary reason that we are using the Spread/Zone read offense is not because Denard cant go under center, but rather we have a group of Lineman that dont have the consistent ability to blow some holes open. This season as you listen to game commentators they say that they are running the Spread to keep Denard involved and that is partly true, but to me its a line situation more than anything else. Thus Denard is the only real running game we have so he has to be in the game. With DG in the game we would be one dimensional. Like I said, elusive, but not a runner. Couple that with the fact that we have a bunch of OK RB's and its obvious Denard has to be in.
Denard has to start. From what I read thats why they are recruiting the crap out of Dunn, as they have other Ohio commits on his tail too. next year will most probably be more of the same with some give and take running both systems. Alot depends on the emergence or recruitment of a solid back, improvement of both our QB's in a pro style system, weight gain and strength of current O-line, and how game ready guys like Bryant, Kalis, and others will be.
IMO 2013 will be a great year. DG at QB with a solid mix of Vets and Youth on the O-line and the defensive recruiting and coaching starting to come to fruition. I'm sure there will be many who disagree with some of my take but thats th fun of MGOBLOG!!
[Ed - PGB: I took the liberty of adding the parenthetical to the title to broadcast to everyone that if you have thoughts/comments on this topic you should get them in while the gettin' is still good. I will be deleting all future threads on this topic for the next two weeks as being redundant. If something happens after the next game to warrant a discussion, so be it. But until then, no moar please.]
October 17th, 2011 at 12:22 PM ^
I'm still trying to figure out what game people saw where Gardner looked vastly better.
Other than the one (illegal) pass, he looked like a kid with shaky mechanics running for his fucking life behind no protection.
Just...like...Denard.
October 17th, 2011 at 12:27 PM ^
Highly recruited backup quarterbacks are the most popular players on the team whenever the starter struggles. Facts are irrelevent to most of the fanbase when it comes to the Denard vs Devin debate.
October 17th, 2011 at 12:47 PM ^
More so then not when that highly touted back up comes in as "the man" they do well. Gardner hasn't been the man yet and we will not know if he's capable until he's given the chance. I say give a big shot vs Purdue!
October 17th, 2011 at 12:34 PM ^
Gardner has hardly gotten enough reps to make those kinds of conclusions. I'm not in that camp, but I would guess it's more along the lines of "We've given Denard more than enough time to learn how to throw the football, now let's see if Gardner can do any better". I just don't think it's right to make this push after yesterday with the wind and all...
October 17th, 2011 at 1:12 PM ^
Yesterday was Sunday.
October 17th, 2011 at 1:16 PM ^
Today it is monday.
We we we so excited. We so excited. Gonna argue Denard/Devin today!
October 17th, 2011 at 12:35 PM ^
I think Gardner looked a little better than Denard, but its hard to look great when you play a handful of random snaps here and there. I don't put too much stock into any evaluation of Devin's play yesterday because he was put in a no win situation.
October 17th, 2011 at 12:36 PM ^
Thank you! I mean, shit, he was five yards past the line of scrimmage. I have literally never seen a quarterback do that, and I've seen a lot of inexperienced quarterbacks. I think that DG will be an excellent quarterback, but, dude, come on.
October 17th, 2011 at 12:44 PM ^
He was about a yard and a half past the line in real time. And that was, sadly, one of the best thrown balls all game.
October 17th, 2011 at 12:47 PM ^
That pass was a rope. I think a yard-and-a-half is optimistic, but maybe so.
October 17th, 2011 at 12:53 PM ^
October 17th, 2011 at 8:22 PM ^
That's why I said that how nice that throw was is the saddest part about its being an illegal forward pass.
October 17th, 2011 at 1:13 PM ^
I watched carefully on replay. One step was on the LOS (which would have made it a legal throw), the next step was when he threw it, so he was exactly a step past the LOS, or approximately 1.5-2 yards.
October 17th, 2011 at 8:21 PM ^
Two yards still makes the case, I think. Clearly the five-yards part was an exaggerated pull-something-out-of-my-ass number and the least important part of the comment.
October 18th, 2011 at 11:02 AM ^
My point was that he was one step past the line, mostly because he needed to plant the left foot to be able to shift his weight properly. If he had thrown one step earlier, it would have been less accurate with less zip, but he still probably could have completed it.
October 17th, 2011 at 12:50 PM ^
I have watched it several times on replay.
Gardner was three to four yards past the line and the coverage recognized it and broke away from Junior which is why he was open.
The safety knew where Devin was before Devin knew.
Devin throws a better ball than Denard but that doesn't mean he is the one who should be in right now. We have our bed and need to lay in it for now.
October 17th, 2011 at 12:57 PM ^
Got a link? Not doubting you, but I'm going off my own memory and I don't have any supporting video. When watching it happen in the game, he looks really far down field, but when they slowed it down, it looked like he launched it only a few feet past the sticks.
When I first watched it, I agree, it was so far beyond the line that anyone could have seen it was an illegal pass. The replay was what made it seem like he released nearer to the line.
October 17th, 2011 at 1:13 PM ^
He was almost a full five yards past the LOS when he let it go.
October 17th, 2011 at 3:36 PM ^
Because according to my HD-DVR on my 50" HDTV on super slo-mo he was clearly about 1-1/2 yards (one step) past the los when the ball left his hand.
October 17th, 2011 at 1:06 PM ^
but I think he throws a better ball. Denard's wounded ducks don't do well in the wind, and I think that may have contributed to the coaches thinking they'd use Devin more. But that's about the only thing Devin (and size I guess) has going v. Denard, at least from what I've seen.
October 17th, 2011 at 1:24 PM ^
Dam I was hoping it was a picture of S. Hopkins looking sad because he was so lonely in the middle of the MSU defense and he had a Moonwalk dance planned for after his catch or maybe Denard running for a td. That would have been much better than that essay I didn't even read, because like duh?
Also wondering how open Hemmingway was before Devin crossed the line. He appeared to be all by himself so I'm thiking the second before when Devin was behind the LOS he was still wide open. So that was 2 wide open td's he blew?
After stating all that if the coaches want to continue to being him in on 2nd down please just start him and have people make fun of us with Denard on the bench. The rotating qb thing is a disaster.
October 17th, 2011 at 1:26 PM ^
The throw that was dropped by Sparty that should have been an INT was the breaking point for me. This is not a sandlot where you can just throw the ball up to the most athletic player on your team.
Everyone in college football is athletic, especially against a top 25 team, top 10 defense. Gardner does not throw up ducks. Denard should be back there with him, but not throwing the ball.
October 17th, 2011 at 1:37 PM ^
Amen.
You captured EXACTLY what I've been thinking for the past two days as I read idiots posting that Devon should be starting over Denard. I just figured they must've goten a different game to watch or something.
October 17th, 2011 at 5:12 PM ^
throws a better ball and even with shaky mechanics, he threw with better accuracy and arm strength. Not real difficult to see Devin is a better passer than Denard. Passing is QB's main job. Denard's erratic inaccuracy is hurting Michigan's offense even though he's electric on the ground.
October 17th, 2011 at 12:30 PM ^
Is this still a question if we pull this one out?? As I remember Denard played not so good against ND . . .we win . . . he's a hero with a great smile on ESPN!!
October 17th, 2011 at 12:36 PM ^
Yes because it has been a question following every game against BCS competition.
October 17th, 2011 at 1:11 PM ^
I think that bigredwolverine's very short comment sums this debate up. Against EVERY SINGLE BCS-level D that Denard has faced, he has had similar games. Look at State, Iowa, Wisco, PSU, OSU and MSU (Gator) from 2010, the first 3.5 quarters of ND this year and this past State loss?
In all of those games, Denard struggled for large portions of the game because he could not respond when forced to throw. Against ND this year, we were bailed out by Rees literally dropping the ball and throwing it to Michigan defenders a few times, and by our D, but Denard really struggled for most of the game.
I really do loe Denard, but having a QB for whom you have to say: "the offensive coordinator screwed up because he should game plan around tiny little short passes and easy patterns that a high schooler can hit" is very limiting on the offense.
I do love Denard, and I am also not calling for him to be benched, but it is a fair question. Personally, I favor the solution that puts both of them out there in that formation that we seem to run more and more - Denard at WR, RB, Slot or RB, with Devin as QB. As a wrinkle, on plays where the ball goes to Denard behind the line of scrimmage, I would like to see him have a run / throw mix of around 2/1 to force defenders to respect the fact that he can still actually throw the ball. I would also like to see that formation result in Devin throwing to some of our talented WRs or even handing off the a RB when the D is focussed on Denard. So much potential in this set, which uses Denard as an uber-back.
October 17th, 2011 at 12:37 PM ^
Whoops
October 17th, 2011 at 12:33 PM ^
DG shouldn't start, but he shouldn't be sitting on the bench either. He needs to get complete drives so he can actually get in some kind of rhythm. They just throw him in here and there, that isn't going to work. It messes up Denard, and doesn't benefit Gardner.
October 17th, 2011 at 12:35 PM ^
When Urban Meyer says that leaving Denard out there is the right decision...it is the right decision. In fact, he said we should play Devin LESS.
October 17th, 2011 at 12:38 PM ^
He rotated Tim Tebow in for Chris Leak during Florida's first national championship year under him.
October 17th, 2011 at 12:39 PM ^
The funny thing about that is that Meyer disregarded his own advice at times when he was at Florida. He regularly pulled Chris Leak for Tim Tebow, and then when Tebow was starting, periodically pulled him for Percy Harvin to run the wildcat.
October 17th, 2011 at 12:41 PM ^
I was thinking that same thing when he was waxing poetically during the broadcast. And instead of calling him a hypocrite (like I thought I would), I was actually respecting his opinion even more because of it.
October 17th, 2011 at 12:46 PM ^
I wouldn't exactly call him a hypocrite, but I would have been curious to hear him to explain why he did things one way at UF was not comparable to what Hoke was doing. He touched on it just briefly with his "If you think Gardner's one of the 11 best players" line, but didn't expand further.
October 17th, 2011 at 12:53 PM ^
As the game went on, I listened more intently to Meyer's critique/analysis of Michigan's decision-making. He clearly has the resume to be critical or supportive. At first, before I knew it was Meyer, he was annoying me with his commentary. But I finally figured out who it was (yes, I'm slow) and actually learned a lot from him. That 11 best players statement was definitely informative.
October 17th, 2011 at 2:51 PM ^
Tebow was the true dual threat of the two qb's and was a freshman - he provided more options than Leak and soon proved it out. Perhaps Devin wll end up being a more balanced qb, but I think Meyer's point (then and now) is that the defense has to adjust more to the run-threat at qb who can also throw. Which is why he put Tebow on the field AND why he thought we should keep Denard on the field.
October 17th, 2011 at 12:48 PM ^
Sounds to me like in those cases, Meyer has an established starter that is effective at throwing the ball and pulling them for someone that can run better. Here Denard, the established runner, is being pulled for someone that is supposed to be able to throw better. A small but significant difference.
Perhaps Meyer wouldn't be opposed to the QB swap if Gardner proves he truly can pass better than Denard. In that case, it'd seem like you would use Gardner as often as Michigan used Tate last year, who was a much worse runner but more accurate passer.
October 17th, 2011 at 1:08 PM ^
Perhaps the difference is Chris Leak, while a good QB, was not nearly the explosive player that Denard is. Leak ran for a grand total of 30 yards his entire senior year and while Leak was a good passer, he was prone to INT (his TD/INT ratio his senior year was 23/13). Plus, Tebow was literally one of the top recruits in the past decade and I assume even more talented than Devin (I think Devin will be quite good, but Tebow turned into a Heisman winner, beyond all that "leader of men" stuff we've all heard ad nauseum).
Thus, I would assume Meyer would say, "Denard is better than Leak, and Tebow is better than Devin" which is why the two situations, while having some similarities, should not have the same result, i.e., keep Denard in the game and utilize his strengths.
October 17th, 2011 at 12:40 PM ^
It would be reckless to change QBs now. But as Hoke says, you compete for your job every day, and we need to have a fair competition for the QB spot during the off season. We cannot beat a team with a good defense unless we are able to throw the ball downfield effectively. If one of them demonstrates the ability to do that with some consistency, then he should start next year. Meanwhile, it will be tough moving the ball against Penn State and tosu if we do not improve our passing dramatically.
October 17th, 2011 at 12:50 PM ^
Hoke on playing Devin more: "No, Denard is our quarterback. We’re 6-1 and a lot of that is because Denard is our quarterback."
Hoke on Denard's throwing: "That's a bogus statement, because he can throw. ... There's a lot more than just Denard."
Hoke when asked if Denard's passing has improved or regressed throughout season: "I think he’s fine. I don’t have a problem with him."
From WolverineNation
October 17th, 2011 at 12:50 PM ^
Denard should not start.
If he is injured. He is not, at least not seriously, from my understanding, so he absolutely should start.
QED.
October 17th, 2011 at 12:54 PM ^
I really think that Denard's passing was affected in a detrimental way more than Cousins. The result of this is that you can't fully judge Denard, or Devin, because of the wind and because of MSU's defense being able to stack the line. Is there a way to practice for wind? Can they put our receivers and QB's in a large size aerodynamic labs with wind machines to get used to throwing with a 30 mph wind to your left, right, coming at you, and behind you?
October 17th, 2011 at 1:07 PM ^
When quarterback questions after every game deal with the fundamentals of THROWING a football--not the scheme or the coverage or the play calls--then I feel pondering a change at QB is pretty justified. I'm not saying he SHOULD be replaced. But if we are still taking about footwork and release points then I think it is at least a conversation worth having amongst the coaching staff.
October 17th, 2011 at 1:21 PM ^
Everyone that wants to keep Denard keeps bringing up the issue of him being the only running threat we have or rather we have no running game without Denard. That is incorrect. Nobody is taking into account that if we had a passing game, maybe our running game outside of Denard would be better. Whenever Denard is in the game, the opposing defense isn't worried about the pass so they stack the box. Our running backs have to go against a loaded defense designed to stop the run. If we had a passing game that would open the defense up allowing our backs to get into space easier. It would probably help the O-line as well not having to worry about having to block an extra defender every play.
October 17th, 2011 at 1:21 PM ^
When A defense puts up a 9 man front and blitzes every down because your QB can't throw a 10 yard pass accurately you should probably look for a change. Nobody is saying Denard should'nt be on the field , he is by far the biggest playmaker we have. He is not the best QB we have tho. It would be different I guess if we ran the ball 50-60 times a game and passed 10 or less , but we dont have the o-line or backs to do that.
October 17th, 2011 at 1:25 PM ^
the person who hacked or keeps changing my avatar on my account is a bitch ass fag who hides behind a computer.
has no balls
sand in his vag though he has
and is a keyboard princess who sucks major aids infested buckeye and sparty cock !
Fuck you
no fuckin balls
getting a new account, thought i'd leave with those words
if he was a real man, which he isnt cuz he is a fucking coward we would meet face to face, but he knows he is apiece of shit who would get his ass beat,but this bitch is gonna keep hiding behind his precious computer and keep fucking with ym avatar
no prob, i'll set up a new account
At least you know you won't reveal who you are, cowards die a thousand deaths , bitch
hide behind the keyboard, fuckin nerd
GO Blue
October 17th, 2011 at 1:35 PM ^
William Gholston?
October 17th, 2011 at 1:42 PM ^
Wow, I'd say it looks like you got what you deserved.
October 17th, 2011 at 1:43 PM ^
I am not the Mod that has been dealing with your offenses, but the changing of the taglines is a new penalty we are levying on MGoElders who are not really affected by a reduction of MGoPoints. You clearly pissed people off, drew the attention of the Mods (probably through a personal attack) and were sent to Bolivian. The tagline editing is another form of penalty, so you know.
A little personal advice - stop the personal attacks and stop complaining about punishments. Signing up as a different user or not, the advice is the same.
October 17th, 2011 at 1:28 PM ^
I'm disappointed that this is even a debate. Last year was Denard's first year as a starter, and his second year in RR's system. The results from that are obvious.
This is his second year as a college starter and his first year in Borges' system, in which Borges has told us to expect growing pains, and Denard is experiencing growing pains. This debate is pointless. Have some patience, I am confident these coaches know what they are doing.