“Stealing is okay, but a method is not.”-NCAA
I feel like I am screaming in the woods as no one seems to care that the NCAA bylaws fail to address actual theft of proprietary information and focuses only on a method used to commit deed.
This is akin to arresting and charging a burglar for using a crowbar in the commission of a burglary rather than for the act of burglary itself.
If there was really any concern over the integrity of the game the bylaws would also forbid signal stealing outright(regardless of the near impossibility of preventing that). But they don’t which to me says a lot about the concerns over the integrity of the game.
This is just another example of the ethical rot at the core of this sport.
October 25th, 2023 at 9:38 AM ^
Welcome to the ncaa. Please help yourself to a bagel.
October 25th, 2023 at 9:41 AM ^
Is there cream cheese? Jelly?
October 25th, 2023 at 11:13 AM ^
There is a open half used apple jelly packet with no utencil to spread it.
October 25th, 2023 at 12:46 PM ^
Put some Just for Men on it...Cryin' Ryan would love it.
October 25th, 2023 at 9:41 AM ^
Put some butter on it, because I swear to Christ if you put cream cheese on it then Harbaugh is getting a five year show cause.....
October 25th, 2023 at 9:56 AM ^
Unrelated to NCAA but related to bagels -- I unknowingly started an argument in the office over toasting a bagel. I had no idea there was so much passion on the side of not toasting a bagel. I've toasted bagels my whole life. Am I missing out on something?
October 25th, 2023 at 10:12 AM ^
There’s nothing better than a toasted bagel with copious amounts of butter melting into every nook and cranny.
October 25th, 2023 at 10:32 AM ^
Topped with a little everything bagel seasoning into the butter pit
October 25th, 2023 at 10:44 AM ^
Just my opinion. There are good and not so good bagels. If you have to do anything beyond just fresh or toasted with butter, they are not good bagels.
Steak is the same, if it requires anything beyond temperature and salt and pepper or a little seasoning, it's not good. The people that use A1 or worse, ketchup have the palate of a toddler and should stick to cheap, overdone steak at Golden Corral.
October 25th, 2023 at 12:56 PM ^
Or cream cheese with scallions and bacon bits!
October 25th, 2023 at 10:19 AM ^
What else do you do with it? Sit on it?
October 25th, 2023 at 10:59 AM ^
I really enjoy a toasted bagel with butter, but also enjoy an untoasted blueberry bagel, or cinnamon raisin bagel. I am not a fan of cream cheese, so I know my taste choices in general are far from the norm.
Toasting a bagel with no toppongs would ruin it for me.
October 25th, 2023 at 3:00 PM ^
wtf, bagels are perhaps the worst kind of bread. They're inedible without being toasted and slathered with cream cheese (at which point they become delicious).
October 25th, 2023 at 9:45 AM ^
I get what you’re saying but you also just pointed out how nearly impossible it would be to forbid signal stealing. You pretty much can’t if someone is really good at it by legitimate means. It looks like we were really good at it by illegitimate means and ones that are directly traceable. I would say that now it’s just a matter of what is the penalty for something of this nature?
October 25th, 2023 at 9:49 AM ^
We can’t prevent people from paying players under the table yet there are bylaws for that.
Lack of ability to prevent an act doesn’t mean you refrain from having rules forbidding said act.
October 25th, 2023 at 10:35 AM ^
Paying players under the table is a potentially traceable and enforceable rule. I’m arguing that the reason there isn’t a rule against signal stealing in general is that if someone is just legitimately good at in-game decoding and guessing, there isn’t much you can do about it if they’re not using technology to gain an advantage. It’s a skill.
October 25th, 2023 at 11:31 AM ^
Paying players under the table requires a deliberate act. Paying players, period, requires deliberateness.
It's just not possible to treat signalers like the sun and not look at them. Like...they're out there. On TV. During the game. Etc.
There's free food available at soup kitchens and food pantries. But the method you get it is very important. If you go and throw all the food in a duffel bag and run out, that's stealing. If you fill out the appropriate paperwork (when necessary) and get permission to take the free food, that's different.
October 25th, 2023 at 11:40 AM ^
Good analogy.
October 25th, 2023 at 9:49 AM ^
Except nothing proves we were even "good" at decoding and using those signs anyway (regardless of how the information was obtained). There is no way to actually identify any specific instance where this is *known* to be a factor (even the claims by sources such as College Football Nerds are laughably dubious).
October 25th, 2023 at 11:00 AM ^
I get what you’re saying but I’m just gonna use basic logic and say that if Connor wasn’t good at what he was doing then there would be absolutely no reason for him to be standing next to the coordinators and telling them live what to do given that his “official” job was recruiting analyst.
October 25th, 2023 at 10:09 AM ^
Isn't it still an open question as to whether or not the means are in fact illegitimate? The specific method used was apparently not "in-person scouting by a staff member." It was review of game videos, which is exactly within his job description. Sure, he had someone produce those videos, but that doesn't seem to be addressed by the rules. You can argue that this violates the spirit of the law, but that is also exactly what all good coaches do all of the time. They push right up to the boundary of what is allowed.
I also don't know what angles are available to the teams normally. Do the all-22 views show the sign callers? Maybe someone more familiar with the process can enlighten us on that. If so, there seems to be no real benefit here.
October 25th, 2023 at 10:55 AM ^
My understanding is that All 22 does not show the coaches on the sideline. If it did, there really would be no point in what Connor did.
October 25th, 2023 at 11:08 AM ^
Tell me if this is illegal...Stalions buys his friends tickets, friends go and record the fun time they had, damn near a video blog of their GameDay experience..friends go home and have a cookout, they invite Stalions, he watches their video blog, he writes down his opinions of the video...Stalions goes to work and helps the coaches gameplan.
Maybe some tendencies are noticed..is this illegal?
October 25th, 2023 at 11:26 AM ^
Does their video include extended filming of an opponents sideline? If so then yes it’s a potential rules violation.
October 25th, 2023 at 11:24 AM ^
They do. Not up close, but they do. Go to YouTube. Plus, broadcasts will show the sidelines occasionally.
There is a reason teams use dummy signal callers. People keep forgetting that coaches are aware that their signals are being stolen or were stolen before a game even begins.
October 25th, 2023 at 9:46 AM ^
I feel like I am screaming in the woods as no one seems to care that the NCAA bylaws fail to address actual theft of proprietary information and focuses only on a method used to commit deed.
And this is only partially true. The rule that is being thrown around, with respect to electronic recording, is pertinent to in game - as in the actual game your team is playing (not a game involving two other teams).
October 25th, 2023 at 10:07 AM ^
I think this really represents the NCAA. I guess that brown bagging and "Pay for Play" don't provide any competitive advantage to teams. It's great that's been cleared up.
October 25th, 2023 at 9:46 AM ^
John U Bacon just said on radio that former Michigan donor Jim Stapleton is the leaker of information from the NCAA to Thamel due to his bad blood with Michigan hiring Harbaugh over his buddy Ron English.
October 25th, 2023 at 9:49 AM ^
Then he can go cheer for Eastern...and fuck right off
October 25th, 2023 at 9:55 AM ^
I hope Michigan at least revokes his priority points so I have a better shot at tickets for Indy, Pasadena and Houston.
October 25th, 2023 at 9:58 AM ^
I've seen some other rumors online that Vegas tipped off the Big Ten. Could be complete bullshit but it wouldn't be the first time Vegas has notified a league of something "being off."
October 25th, 2023 at 10:41 AM ^
If Vegas has privileged information, it tends to stay in Vegas. What incentive would Vegas have to share info with the Big Ten?
October 25th, 2023 at 9:59 AM ^
That is fucking CRAZY! It's been almost a decade since Jim was hired and we're 2 time defending Big 10 Champions! And this guy is so angry his buddy wasn't hired in the distant past that he wants to destroy everything that Jim has built here.
What an absolute cunt. He should be banned from Michigan Stadium, Ann Arbor, and the entire State of Michigan.
October 25th, 2023 at 10:04 AM ^
Talk about nepotism at its purest. This dude would rather have his buddy be coach than Michigan be good at football.
October 25th, 2023 at 10:05 AM ^
I don't understand how that is legal to do. I know the NCAA runs by their own code (clearly) but you would think there would be a way for Michigan and/or Harbaugh to slap a lawsuit on the guy (and maybe the NCAA) for hurting the "brand" or something like that for leaks..I am no lawyer obviously, but seem like there would be something
October 25th, 2023 at 10:12 AM ^
Unless he violated some kind of contractual or legal obligation (he had signed a non-disclosure agreement or he had some kind of fiduciary obligation to Michigan), truth is typically a defense to any kind of libel or slander allegations.
*Edit* - This was not meant to imply that he shouldn't lose his job if he is found to be violating NCAA rules/regulations regarding investigations (again) to further his vendetta. It would also be funny if some Michigan politicians start wondering aloud if the NCAA is engaging in some collusion with the SEC/Vegas to damage Michigan, and that maybe any kind of anti-trust protections should be re-examined.
October 25th, 2023 at 10:10 AM ^
Proving once again age does not necessarily correlate with maturity.
I hope Bacon has proof of this so the guy can be publicly outed and removed from any position where he can influence college football.
If true, what a joke.
October 25th, 2023 at 10:22 AM ^
I hope Bacon has proof since he might be sued by Stapleton if untrue.
October 25th, 2023 at 10:52 AM ^
I hope after what ever discussions take place with the NCAA on Thursday happen, when the NCAA gets up to leave, Warde says, "hold on a minute, we have one more thing to discuss" and pulls out the proof showing Stapleton is the leak.
I hope Harbaugh and Stapleton are in the room and Harbaugh sits back and smiles at him.
October 25th, 2023 at 10:41 AM ^
A position such as being a member of the NCAA Div 1 Committee on Infractions?
October 25th, 2023 at 10:46 AM ^
Does this mean that the evenyoubrutus post on JS could be restored? :)
This is really nuts. A guy who basically rates Brady Hoke and Ron English (Ron #*$&ing English) higher than Harbaugh is in a position of influence and has an office in Ann Arbor. Can't make this shit up ...
October 25th, 2023 at 10:51 AM ^
How could Stapleton know about this if it wasn’t more widely known in the AD?
October 25th, 2023 at 11:01 AM ^
Here's how:
https://www.ncaa.org/sports/2018/3/20/ncaa-division-i-committee-on-infractions-roster.aspx
Unless Michigan has a mole in the NCAA, they're not going to know about all the information passed that way by OSU and others.
October 25th, 2023 at 9:46 AM ^
I hate the NCAA as much as anyone and believe this whole thing is a farce but there is a difference between activily going to opponents games and taping their signs and formations in an attempt to determine their signals vs trying to do it on the fly in a game, If you're partaking in the former, you know the signals from kick-off and can adjust from the first snap. If you are doing the latter you may figure out one or two signals by the end of the game and be playing the rest of the snaps blind. One is something that has been part of the game forever and the other is something that most schools probably do, but few get caught because they are more adept at covering their tracks.
October 25th, 2023 at 9:51 AM ^
You can do that by other means. Video from All 22 and TV. That is why teams change their signals from game to game.
October 25th, 2023 at 12:49 PM ^
As a guy who mainly watches games on TV and rarely gets to see the games live, I don't see man shots of the signal callers, and whats more, when they do show them, by the time they go back to the game the play is starting. If I go to a game with the express purpose of taping the signal callers, with another person who is expressly taping the plays so you can see what the signals are AND what the alignment is, and then determine what the real signal actually is, thats a huge andvantage and one I don't think you cuold come up with watching on TV. I could be wrong about that but broadcasts that I've watched don't usually show the signal callers and when they do, it doesn't usually give you time to then see what the D or O were running. Anyway, I'm not expert, just saying what it seems to me.
October 25th, 2023 at 10:26 AM ^
I agree with SQ, that if views of the sign callers are readily available to teams in existing videos, then this is really no different. This is literally review of signs that are also visible to tens of thousands of people in the stands every week. And many of those thousands of people are recording videos of the games. This is not hidden info stolen from a vault in a basement somewhere. I mean, a fan with no formal associations to the program could attend a game, write down the signals called before each play on a pad of paper and send them to the team to analyze. And that doesn't violate any rules. So ultimately it comes down to watching your own video instead of the "official" ones, and watching video instead of manually recorded observations? Seems like splitting hairs.
October 25th, 2023 at 11:01 AM ^
Given that this leaked prior to the MSU game, we'll have 7 games in which Stalions's work is available and 5 in which it is not to compare. Obviously there is a big difference in strength of opponent, but if we beat the shit out of the remaining 4 teams on the schedule (MSU, check), it will go a long way towards proving Stalions's work didn't make a noticeable difference. I.e., the proof is in the pudding. We need to go on and run the table, and if we do, any whining from rival fanbases or coaches is just that. Ryan Day will just have to come up with a new excuse for why his extremely tough team was unable to beat us. Perhaps because he was forced to play the game inside our stadium and the fans made noise when he was on offense? Who knows what creative excuses he will come up with next! We will still have beaten our in-state rival into a mush on their homefield, beaten the 2nd and 3rd best teams in the B1G, and (fingers crossed) beaten whoever we're matched up against in the Playoff, all without any advance scouting.