OT: HS Coach Who Doesn't Punt/Onside Kicks Every Time

Submitted by Bo_Knows on

In light of all the recent (deserved/undeserved) commentary on our coaches, who seem to avoid non-traditional concepts of football, here is a Grantland piece on Kevin Kelley, an Arkansas HS Football Coach who never punts AND always onside kicks.

LINK

Just thought it was an interesting read/watch, especially when juxtaposed to our coaching staff (God bless them) who are man-ball obsessed, spread-adverse, anti-spread punt and allergic to bubble screens.

Do you think this would ever work or be implemented at higher levels such as College football or NFL?

EastCoast Esq.

November 13th, 2013 at 11:23 PM ^

No. This only works at the high school level because the players are smaller, slower, and less disciplined.

There is a strong strain of thought that coaches should be more aggressive on 4th down, but nobody thinks that a team could make it at the higher levels without playing the field position game somewhat.

In reply to by Dawggoblue

ironman4579

November 14th, 2013 at 12:03 AM ^

Can't edit on my phone but I'll answer my own question. The answer is no FBS team. the least amount of punts last year was 34 by Army. The most onside kicks was 5 by SMU. Everybody punted, everybody kicked deep.

joeyb

November 14th, 2013 at 12:31 AM ^

Maybe not onside kicks, but I think an argument could be made for never punting and always going for 2. They actually practice onside kicks and have multiple plays, though, so they probably have a better chance at converting them, especially if the other team isn't covering it. At that points there's a case to be made for at least attempting 1 or 2 per game.

Lazer with a Z

November 14th, 2013 at 12:00 AM ^

I like the idea, but you have to understand that Pulaski Academy is an elite high school football program that chooses it's athletes. 

Imagine a decidedly less talented football team doing this, and it's easy to see how things would go south for them in a hurry. 

I think Pulaski Academy is also know for running a lot of trick plays as well.

I believe the coach in South Haven, MI also subscribes to the same philosophy. 

 

NOLA Wolverine

November 14th, 2013 at 12:05 AM ^

There's statistical data to suggest not punting very often, but I don't think there are enough samples of on-side kicks to justify this statistically. I wouldn't expect an analysis to tell you to onside kick very often, just based on the idea that the same statistical analysis that told you to not punt before would give you a result of "We get the ball at midfield? Awesome." when you apply it to your opponent. 

EDIT: And yeah, to echo the sentiment of the posters above me, let's throw these guys and St. Thomas Aquinas on ESPN and see how well the onside kick strategy goes for them. 

Jacoby

November 14th, 2013 at 12:24 AM ^

I'll bet that if the receiving team knows that you are going to onside kick it, the success rate is much lower. I'd like to see stars on expected onsides compared with surprise onsides.

America

November 14th, 2013 at 1:14 AM ^

Lower, yes.  Much lower, unlikely.  There are very few surprise onside kicks.  The other team is prepared for a very high percentage of onside kicks so doubt it would change the numbers much.

This team's opponents probably get more onside reps in during the lead up week though which may affect the percentage some.  But "more reps" is probably 9 or 10 reps instead of 3 or 4.

Urban Warfare

November 14th, 2013 at 1:21 AM ^

This isn't that rare with bad high school teams, usually because they don't have anyone who can kick or their longsnapper is unreliable. 

JohnnyV123

November 14th, 2013 at 1:28 AM ^

Going for it on fourth down to me is almost always about understanding the game you are in. If you're a defense playing well against the opposing offense but are having your own offensive struggles and have a good punter you are probably justified punting from the fifty yard line on 4th and 3 even if statistically you are more likely to convert. Failing to convert and giving up 20 yards on defense from the 50 before stopping them means the other team gets a field goal. Punting and giving up  20 yards on defense before stopping them means you get the ball back with solid field position.

Bocheezu

November 14th, 2013 at 7:58 AM ^

especially in a shootout-type game like 2010 Illinois and 2013 Indiana.  There's no reason to kick deep if you're just going to get scored on anyway.  The defense actually got a few stops at the end of the Indiana game, but that Illinois game was a complete defensive catastrophe.

As far as going for two, unfortunately, coaches are very conservative and realize they will never be questioned for kicking extra points and not going for it till they need to (and losing by 2 when the conversion fails), but will certainly be put under scrutiny if the team goes for it early when they don't need it, fails, and ends up losing by 1.

phork

November 14th, 2013 at 10:42 AM ^

It is but the philosphy is if you punt it you are going to net maybe 20-30 yards?  So the idea is if you don't make it the likelyhood is that the other team will score whether you punt it or not.  By letting them have it at the 5 and scoring immediately puts the ball in your hands right away.  You can then try to get back in to your own cycle of scoring/onside/scoring etc...

Red is Blue

November 14th, 2013 at 10:59 AM ^

I don't know the stats, but it seems highly likely that the expected points for a drive starting at the 35 would be lower than the expected points out of drive starting at the 35. One would have to also consider the other possibilities such as blocked kick, chance of converting 4th down, fumble on punt return... I suppose it is possible that all that nets out in favor of going for it, but intuitively that seems unlikely. How about the same down/distance up by 2 with game clock > play clock by 12 seconds?

joegeo

November 14th, 2013 at 9:21 AM ^

I remember playing against Muskegon Orchard View in 1999. That season, they scored the seventh most points in a season in the history of high school football in the country (not sure where it stands now)! They never punted and they onside kicked every time as well. They also always went for two. Their coach was Shilito who coaches Zeeland West now. I think it's important to take into account that these kind of decisions are affected by the abilities of your kickers too.

Brewers Yost

November 14th, 2013 at 11:34 AM ^

Watching the end of the Stanford Oregon game got me thinking about teams who onside kick a lot (as in the OP). Oregon was able to get one out of three, I believe. I was thinking a team like Oregon or Indiana should onside more often. With a high powered offense why not try to increase possessions? Indiana has such a poor defense not sure field position is that valuable.