OT: The Atlantic: Status obsessed parents & niche sports
I hope this is OT-acceptable. It has to do with college sports so at the very least, it's not an egregrious violation of OT rules. It's a little slow at work today and the board is quiet so I thought I'd post it.
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/11/squash-lacrosse-niche-sports-ivy-league-admissions/616474/
I found this pretty fascinating. It examines the obsession of extremely wealthy families with getting their kids into Ivy League/elite schools via athletic-preference admissions (there's also a very snooty dig at our Buckeye rivals early in the article). The lengths some of these people go to give their kids an advantage is shocking. And with the fallout from the coronavirus pandemic and the college admissions scandal, many of these athletic departments and sports are facing a reckoning. And because of the images they convey, some colleges are beginning to rethink 'country club' sports like squash, fencing, rowing and others (I'm a lacrosse guy and that sport comes off pretty bad in it and I'm more than a little embarrassed).
There are also a few interesting college admissions stats in there as well. It's really an interesting look at the insanely competitive world of rich people and prestigious colleges.
October 21st, 2020 at 3:34 PM ^
The board is quiet b/c we're all sleeping, getting ready for Saturday.
The details are fun but, essentially, isn't the the article simply saying that rich people use their wealth to get what they want.
October 21st, 2020 at 3:42 PM ^
Well, it's Wednesday and I'm bored so...
The parents are not getting what they want. Many of them are ponying up big bucks for the coaching, fancy leagues/tournaments, etc. but the kids are not getting the looks from the coaches/programs - and more importantly admissions spots- they think they're entitled to. And now the parents are starting to freak out ( I also don't mind seeing out-of-touch rich people lose their minds because they can't have something).
October 21st, 2020 at 3:57 PM ^
I wasn't as clear as I could have been: it's rich people using their money trying to get what they want.
At the same time, your point may be a little muzzy as well. Not all of them are getting what they want, but SOME are getting exactly what they want, and MOST of them simply turn to other ways to help their kids.
Also, it's not simply rich people who are out of touch, nor who lose their minds because they can't have something.
October 21st, 2020 at 4:10 PM ^
If anything, this "scheme" has become a victim of its own success. For quite a while it's been such a great backdoor into the most competitive schools that eventually the numbers of people trying it just brought the probability of acceptance back to reality, and in the meantime, the hucksters are cashing in on the parental anxiety.
October 21st, 2020 at 5:48 PM ^
A moment of reckoning is fast approaching for colleges and college athletics. And for the class of people who have the money and arrogance to believe they can by anything and anyone.
October 22nd, 2020 at 4:43 AM ^
I don't know. Seems like a lot of the coaches and trainers in that story think the parents are insane. The parents mostly look like the ones to blame. They think their kid can't be wealthy or happy without going to an Ivy League school.
October 22nd, 2020 at 8:40 PM ^
It's not just the Ivy League, it's not even D1--both are pretty low odds. I wouldn't even say this is solely a rich family thing. Middle class travel sports families are just as obsessed with "playing at the next level," with little care about where, it seems. Some of the no-name colleges I see these travel crazy parents bragging about makes me laugh. No-name D2 and D3 schools that don't even give athletic scholarships--colleges in podunk towns that probably don't even cut anyone from most of their teams. That's why you obsess over your kid's sports "career" from age 4 to 18? It's pretty sad.
October 21st, 2020 at 3:38 PM ^
Also - I should mention I did a search for a previous posting and didn't see it posted yet!
Additionally - I got a kick at how oblivious some of these parents are to the level of competition that is out there. It's like they think if they just sign their kid up for the weird sport and load him/her up with private coaches they can then just accept their ticket to the Ivy League. One parent was shocked at how athletic most other lacrosse recruits were. And they fail to realize how brutal training for sports like rowing and water polo is. It's also sad to see how burnt out the kids get from this insane process.
My only beef with the article is that it focuses on 'country club' sports but doesn't look at golf and tennis - the two literal country club sports. A friend of mine is a Yale graduate and his freshman year roommate got in to play golf yet he never joined the team. He immediately quit the sport after getting into the most competitive college on the planet. I'm sure that shit happens all the time.
October 21st, 2020 at 3:52 PM ^
I played with a guy who got into Brown for basketball and proceeded to quit after 1 season to just ride that Ivy League network to a ridiculous job. He was a good guy, but not Ivy League academically inclined (neither was I).
October 21st, 2020 at 3:58 PM ^
If they have daughters and really want that sports scholarship, I'm not sure there is a better choice than golf. It will be the last sport dropped because it's dirt-cheap to run and there are still plenty of roster spots available because of it's low level of popularity.
October 21st, 2020 at 4:49 PM ^
Just maybe not at the Ivies. Dartmouth dropped men’s and women’s golf this summer and I think Brown did too.
October 21st, 2020 at 8:33 PM ^
Rowing seems like a better option IMO. Few High Schools have rowing programs, so its less competition. Golf as a sport is super hard to get good at as many of you likely know, and its much much more expensive then rowing.
October 21st, 2020 at 8:49 PM ^
Blue bloods & wannabes love rowing. “The Boat Race” is a big deal with the landed gentry in England, so the upstart colonials have to do it too.
October 21st, 2020 at 4:47 PM ^
Americans don't play NCAA tennis.
October 21st, 2020 at 11:53 PM ^
Yeah, I knew someone whose kid got into UChicago because of swimming and diving basically knowing he wouldn't ever compete in the sport in college. It was weird because the school seemed to know that as well, or at least the coach wasn't all that bothered the kid retired once he showed up.
It's just a weird system.
October 21st, 2020 at 3:48 PM ^
Coached out east at one of the nicest boathouses that sends a good 5-10 guys a year to the top IRA schools and then another 10-15 to lower level IRA and Club rowing programs. I coached the freshmen so they weren't yet Ivy League material, but after 4 years of coaching (from better coaches than me) a lot of them were 6'6" monsters who were every bit the athlete you could imagine.
The amount of money floating around the sport is just stupid. Parents would throw galas and hand out giftcards to coaches for $300 at the end of the season as an extra thank you (we were paid alright for the situation). And the USC scandal put rowing in the worst light possible. Which, it deserves from time to time. That being said, and I understand what you mean by "country club" sports, I look at rowing differently from the others you mentioned. I played baseball, basketball, and football in high school in a nice suburban school district. College rowing was by far the most physically demanding sport I ever competed in. Sure, I didn't get hit by 300 pound guys like I did in football, but 2 straight hours of red lining my heartrate and ripping my hands to shred wasn't very "country club" like playing tennis with my wife at her parent's timeshare in Hilton Head or golf with my dad at UofM's course (god I am so white).
I get schools rethinking some sports, especially ones that generate no revenue, cost a lot (rowing is crazy expensive), and are targets for wealthy families to get their kids even more advantages, but rowing is on a whole other level than... squash.
October 21st, 2020 at 4:25 PM ^
Pretty sure the country club moniker has nothing to do with how difficult a sport is, but with how expensive a sport is. And yeah, rowing is too expensive for almost anyone not from a wealthy family to get involved in, especially before college.
October 21st, 2020 at 4:35 PM ^
True, though a lot of the good boathouses have outreach programs to get inner city minorities access to the sport. The boathouse I coached at drove one of their vans into the city to pick kids up and bring them out to row 3 times a week. Had a dedicated coach for the program as well and got them in races. That doesn't refute your point or lessen the degree to which rowing is a highly expensive sport with limited access for lower income households.
Not to get into a which sport is better/harder/more deserving, but "country club" doesn't only make me think of money. It also makes me think of sports that don't require the grind that rowing does.
October 21st, 2020 at 5:09 PM ^
There's def a bit of apples and oranges going on. But, I agree- the parents overlook the fact that you have to be an athlete, or at least insanely fit and strong, to excel in some of these sports. And you can't just throw a kid into it and expect him/her to succeed no matter how many trainers, coaches and specialists you hire for them.
I also object to the fact that lacrosse is lumped in with sports like fencing and squash. I guess it's niche because it's out of the mainstream, but 'country-club' definitely does not apply. And while it has a close association with prep schools, it's been traditionally popular in MD and NYS because it's big in the public schools in those states- even in the middle class areas. It's also the fastest-growing sport in the U.S. and the national summer sport of Canada. And some of the best players come from Indian reservations - obviously not cushy upbringings. Also - you can get seriously fucked up and injured playing lacrosse- not something I think of when I think of squash or golf (but I guess you can in fencing? - holy smokes).
My favorite part was when the parents were like 'it would only cost $20 million to create a lacrosse program at Stanford.' My least favorite part was when the Inside Lacrosse guy lamented that a lost HS season meant that a kid would have to settle for Georgetown instead of Yale. Boo-fucking- hoo. Lacrosse is often very out-of-touch though and the entire lacrosse community can be stupidly un-self aware at times. And they wonder why people don't take the sport seriously.
October 21st, 2020 at 5:38 PM ^
I'm not shedding any tears for elite colleges dropping squash or fencing. Lacrosse is much more mainstream and should stay but it is a side door channel for wealthy families to get their kids in. I had a client about ten years ago whose son got into an Ivy League school through lacrosse. I have no idea if he was a great lacrosse player or not. She did tell me that he had a learning deficiency and that he tested poorly. He also took few AP courses. She said the school didn't take the SAT into account in his case, and they overlooked his low number of AP courses. I was surprised at how she told me this. I'm sure she wouldn't be so open if it was happening now.
I just don't like how these situations take away spots for more deserving students. Especially schools with much smaller class sizes to begin with.
Does anyone think that Stanford dropping some of these type of sports may eventually knock them off the top of the Directors' Cup standings?
I would also add that I have nothing personally against any of these sports. I just don't like how some parents and students use them to game the system.
October 21st, 2020 at 6:34 PM ^
Wow, that is pretty insane. That might be the worst one I've ever heard. A 6'10" rich kid in my town supposedly didn't break 1000 on his SATs but went to Harvard to play basketball, but that sounds worse.
I grew up playing lacrosse with and against guys who went to every top academic school you could think of. And the sad thing is, some of them weren't even that good. And while some of them were legitimately smart, most of them were just OK students (don't get me wrong - I tried it, too, but couldn't get a push over the edge from certain coaches so I went to Michigan instead and played club).
I wonder if these admissions schemes will be the target of lawsuits in the future. If I were a top student who worked his/her ass in high school and got denied admission in favor of your client's kid or my buddy's roommate who quit Yale's golf team, I would be pissed. Those admissions spots are pretty valuable and it's insane to waste them on sports like this. There are other kids who deserve it more.
October 21st, 2020 at 8:36 PM ^
Serious question, but how in the world is rowing an expensive sport? All you need is a boat and oars. Is it all club fees or something?
October 22nd, 2020 at 6:33 PM ^
Brand new 8s can run $40k. New 4s are $25k-ish. They're solid carbon fiber..
A set of 8 oars runs $2500.
Trailers run $15k IIRC.
It builds up quick.
October 21st, 2020 at 4:41 PM ^
I got introduced to rowing when my son got into it his junior year of HS in West Michigan (Rockford) and have a lot of respect for the sport. You are absolutely correct that there is not a more physically demanding sport. I will also say that the classification of being "Country Club" has far more to do with the attitude and background of the parents than anything. At most high schools in Michigan it is far from Country Club. OLSM is probably an exception, but reading that article I'm guessing many East Coast "elites" would be disappointed if their kids were forced to slum it at OLSM for a year of HS. Many HS teams in Michigan are the result of rowing clubs being started with the bare bones needs to get rowers on the water. Boat houses are basic pole barns, boats are purchased used from college teams, etc. And while more expensive than most sports, it was actually far less than half of what we were paying for 1 season of travel hockey.
October 21st, 2020 at 5:30 PM ^
Yeah, I had no idea how expensive travel hockey was until I met my wife. Her father grew up playing it and still knows the sport well. It blows my mind.
And while east coast rowing is on another level, OLSM isn't exactly slumming it. There is definitely more money out east in the sport and even the public schools with programs tend to have decent equipment. BB&N in Boston and Exeter Academy in NH might look down on OLSM, but those people suck. Where it differs is the boathouses that aren't tied to a school and recruits kids to their high performance programs to then send them off to Harvard/Washington/Yale/Cal. Those boathouses are stupid nice and get people from over an hour away to drive in and train year-round as well as kids who don't row for their high schools in favor of the clubs. I can't remember what it cost to row for the entire year (fall 5k, spring and summer 2k, winter indoor training) but I believe just the summer session was around $7 or $8k for everything (coaching, equipment, travel, lodging).
Will also mention the Detroit Boat Club is the oldest in the US. Older than anything out East. It just sucks that it fell on hard times and wasn't as well kept as those historic ones out east in Boston, DC, and Philly.
Rowing can be more manageable when it comes to equipment costs because yes, teams can get used boats from college programs. Even Midwest college clubs have pole barns, john boats, and relatively reasonable bells and whistles. They definitely know where to spend money, specifically on shells and how to take care of them long enough to get more good years out of them. And Midwest rowing is definitely less country club-y. I rowed with guys from all types of backgrounds, including a guy from inner-city Detroit, as well as some farm folk.
October 21st, 2020 at 6:05 PM ^
Ya, I definitely don't think OLSM is slumming it and certainly my son's team didn't think so either when they saw it. His school was only charging about $750 for the spring season and that included all travel expenses. I thought it was a bargain myself. I will also point out that they were a good example of how you can do it right on tight budget. Used shells, donated truck to haul to regattas, ergs stored in the middle school cafeteria for winter conditioning. And they always competed well even against the top private schools and clubs. They routinely have boats qualifying for nationals and one year their men's lightweight men's 4 won nationals.
October 21st, 2020 at 3:55 PM ^
In Columbus, Ohio, at the junior-fencing nationals with the couple’s two younger girls and son, he reported that their middle daughter, a 12-year-old saber fencer, had been stabbed in the jugular during her first bout. The wound was right next to the carotid artery, and he was withdrawing her from the tournament and flying home
Honestly, that is as far as I got. I love the Atlantic, and will read the rest later, but DAMN!
October 21st, 2020 at 3:59 PM ^
The board is quiet...
... too quiet.
#BRINGBACKOPPONENTWATCH
October 21st, 2020 at 5:34 PM ^
We need Opponent Watch. It's the Daxine for our sickness.
October 21st, 2020 at 4:01 PM ^
It's not just Ivy League schools.
A cursory glance at the row of Range Rovers always parked outside of the Natatorium on South Campus reminded me that even many Michigan athletes came from a place of wealth and privilege.
October 21st, 2020 at 4:53 PM ^
I don't think it's many, I think it's most kids in the big schools. And it's not just Michigan. I'd wager most P5 school's athletes are upper middle class heavy, with occasional forays into normal middle class. And it's not just country club sports. Football players are nothing like they were in the 80s and 90s.
The days of Nebraska and Miami having to keep lawyers on call and tutors on tap to help their kids take every spelling test are (mostly) gone.
I do hope the poorer kids who don't have the privilege of mommy and daddy paying for coaches and tutors from 5th grade on are still getting their opportunities somewhere, but I don't think it's in most of the P5.
October 21st, 2020 at 4:04 PM ^
Pretty good read, makes you think for sure
October 21st, 2020 at 4:04 PM ^
Yale law professor Daniel Markovits wrote a book, the Meritocracy Trap, that details several aspects of this phenomenon. Eye opening read about the crazy resources and cumulative advantages the wealthy provide their children.
October 21st, 2020 at 4:06 PM ^
I read this a couple days back and it completely corresponded with what friends/relatives have been telling me. I have a cousin whose sons got into Brown and Columbia because of squash, though Brown recently (like a few months ago) pulled their squash team back to club level from varsity.
The whole thing, like special testing accommodations and outside admissions consultants, is quite a... ahem... racket.
October 21st, 2020 at 4:12 PM ^
An embedded link is always helpful:
October 22nd, 2020 at 9:00 AM ^
You're a hero we don't deserve. Thank you!
October 21st, 2020 at 4:21 PM ^
I worked with an OSU crew dad who told me women's crew is the quickest way for girls to be admitted and offered full rides at any school in the nation. Apparently they can't fill the spots on the team.
October 21st, 2020 at 4:39 PM ^
So true. At the college I work at, every fall there are signs posted at the gym that say, "Want to be a Division 1 athlete? Join women's crew!" While the article portrays crew as an elitist sport for the wealthy, a lot of colleges have crew teams made up of first timers.
October 21st, 2020 at 4:46 PM ^
If you have a free minute or two, go to MGoBlue.com and check out the official press releases announcing the incoming class of women's rowers. Many (perhaps most?) have literally NO rowing experience listed in their bio. A lot of All State athletes in sports other than rowing.
October 21st, 2020 at 7:09 PM ^
A girl from my high school was a great High school swimmer, rowed in college, and was a two-time Olympic triathlete. Your observation holds true.
October 21st, 2020 at 4:28 PM ^
Wow. Just wow. I'm either doing something wrong or doing something right. Because I just refuse to tell my kids that unless they go to the best school, they have disappointed me. The world described here is sick, and I'm glad not to be part of it.
October 22nd, 2020 at 4:48 AM ^
The ending is terrible. The mother is gleefully talking about how she's going to make her kids miserable soon.
October 21st, 2020 at 4:36 PM ^
College, itself, skews towards the wealthy and affluent, so the non-revenue or olympic sports participants would naturally skew that way too. The author could have focused on any sport and depicted the ridiculous money thrown around all for the sake of a trophy or admissions spot.
Take Michigan. My roommate at UM told me of a class where the professor asked the students how many came from families with assets of $1 million or more (this was the mid 80's so that was real money). Then he asked how many students came from blue collar families. My friend said he and one other student (out of 100 or so) raised their hand as being in blue collar household compared to a third of the class who were wealthy. That's at a public university; imagine the private universities (where these sports are popular) where 2/3 of the student body can pay the $75k a year without hesitation.
October 21st, 2020 at 4:40 PM ^
That's a darkly awesome article and I thought about posting it myself. Highly recommended.
Imagine going to a boarding school out east with the offspring of all those sociopaths. A few people on the board may have had the experience.
October 21st, 2020 at 4:46 PM ^
Youth sports in general are out of control even at relatively young ages. We just wrapped up fall softball for our 11 year old. They practiced twice a week and played a couple games on Saturday. I guess I am old fashioned but that seemed like plenty of time for a kid that age to commit to a sport. Then you talk to other parents and they are doing private lessons, batting cage time and other stuff. After the game you hear a bunch of people talking about their off-season training plans. Is it reasonable to have kids that age committing 20 hours a week to a sport?
October 21st, 2020 at 4:57 PM ^
As a HS coach, I hate this crap. Play other sports. Have fun. Don't burn out or get overuse injuries.
If the alternative is sitting at home on your phone, then yeah I encourage my guys to play a light fall league or what not. But only after I push them (hard) to play another sport at the school. It's more fun. It's more social. It's plenty competitive and you might find a new passion.
I find often the families I coach that are described in this article basically can't fathom their kid playing a second sport and it's not until senior year that they realize that all the money and private lessons can't buy size and can't buy talent and you've missed out on such an awesome experience to be a multisport athlete. You've missed out on competitive opportunities and you've missed out on making life long friends and learning life long lessons.
October 21st, 2020 at 8:22 PM ^
My soon to be 12 year old decided to take a break from soccer and basketball this year. Her coaches said she will lose her spot. I am proud of her because she said she didn’t care. She was burned out at 11. It really is the best decision she made. School is going better, her mental health is better and she said her body feels healthier.
She said she will probably never go back. She felt too much pressure. She is thinking about track or just rec basketball. She is done with soccer even though that was her best sport but the travel world was too much for her.
October 21st, 2020 at 9:02 PM ^
11 is pre-high school? So travel coaches being assholes?
Travel coaches have much more financial incentive to say "you'll lose your spot."
If a HS program is good enough for a kiddo to "lose their spot" by playing another sport or taking 8th grade 'off,' then that program is good enough for the HS coach to not at all pressure the kid into doing something they don't want.
And if a HS coach still pressures them... F them. They are a terrible interscholastic coach.
Your kiddo's school T&F coach will love to welcome her. T&F athletes build amazing relationships with each other and with coaches, in my experience. Maybe it's an "embrace the suck" mentality.
Sounds like she's in a good spot.
October 21st, 2020 at 9:15 PM ^
I have two really competitive kids, both very good athletes, but different in how they deal with pressure. My son went on to play in college, and honestly I wouldn't have thought, at age 12 or 13, that he had the mentality to deal with the pressure. My daughter, who's a senior, seemed much more dedicated and motivated, even tougher mentally, yet she ended up hating the pressure and quit last year after wanting to play in college and playing on a travel team geared towards college recruitment. I think they really have to want it. There's so much adversity, so much competition, so much disappointment in the midst of all the good stuff. Seeing my son's experience in college, I now think my daughter would've hated it. Every year, new players come in and challenge your spot. You have to be ready to deal with that or you're going to be miserable and hate it.
October 22nd, 2020 at 9:39 AM ^
Good for her. I'm getting flack from my 7-year-old son's soccer coach for limiting his availability during the winter. I couldn't help but look at him like he was from another planet.