Harbaugh: The Universal Pipe Dream
Living in San Francisco, my only regular contact to Michigan football besides games is Mgoblog, and a few other Michigan blogs (BWS, Touchthebanner.etc) I don't get the full media experience of newspaper, talk radio, and nightly news that you get in Michigan. But I do get the full load for the 49ers. And it has been a funny week. After both teams suffered big home losses after two game winning streaks, all those looking for hope are looking for Harbaugh. (49ers lost 21-0 to Tampa Bay, turns out Troy Smith is not the second comming of Steve Young like all the fans were saying the previous week.) You can't listen to KNBR for more than 5 minutes without someone calling in to say how Harbaugh is ready for the Niners and wants to continue his battle with Pete Carrol. Here's an example from today's paper in San Jose. It seems both fan bases are convinced that Harbaugh is the answer and he would drop everything for the job if offered. Sorry, not all that informative of a topic, just an interesting observation on the universal reaction of fans when something bad happens. They look to the hot name for the quick fix and renewed hope.
November 24th, 2010 at 9:43 AM ^
I dont think you have accepted it at all. It seems totally lost on you the roster issues the program has been facing and the time it takes to burrow out from that sort of attrition. We had two issues, the massive offensive attirtion the followed in the wake of his hiring and the ensuing year. Rodriguez has, by and large, solved that. The other issue has been the longterm and continued attirtion on defense. This was a problem the final 3-4 years of Carr, it left us with poor defensive upperclassmen numbers. Sadly, this is something that remains a fucking mess and Rodriguez has not sovled it.
For well over a year since I first noticed your posts, you seem deep down to being more of a fan of the Arky QB, the OSU guard and the Colorado WR than you are of anyone on the current Michigan football team.
The reason why I--a guy who was run off Haloscan as a Lloyd apologist during 2007. He is my favorite football coach of all time--have a lot of patience with the new coaches and current team is simply because I am realist with the roster issues. You are not. You still claim the team Rich had at his first practice was the team that beat Florida. That's disengenious. You just need to come to grips that it has been a rebuilding project because kids refused to give the new coach a fair shake combined with shaky defensive recruiting/retention in the final 3 years of Carr and now the first 3 years of Rodriguez. If you cant, then you're not even going to happy with the new coach.
I dont care who coaches the team. I really dont. Time is the only thing that solves roster issues. Somebody is winning with these players in the next couple of years as we get more numbers on defense.
November 24th, 2010 at 10:32 AM ^
I really love this blog for a number of reasons - good insight, recruiting tidbits, something to do while I'm bored at work...but the "you think this" and "you think that" is really tired. I claim that Rich had the team that beat Florida? In that the team was "Michigan"...yes. In that the team had all the same players...no. My point, that you continue to ignore (not sure why) is that RR is responsible for the team he puts on the field. There's no crying in baseball and no excuses in football.
I'm more of a fan of a Colorado WR than anyone on the current team? What the hell are you talking about? Wait...who the hell are you talking about??? I think re-recruiting the roster should have been job #1 for RR. It was the #1 job for Beilein who otherwise would have lost Manny and DeShawn. RR, arrogantly, did the opposite and lost a lot of players as a result. That's it. I do like Manningham, Arrington and Mallet. I wish they had stayed. Do I like them more than our current players? Who cares? We have good kids. Even if their coach wants to blame them, the current situation is not their fault.
If our defense was so shallow when RR took over, then he (if he were a good coach/evaluator of talent) should have immediately placed heavy emphasis there. But he didn't. He put everything on the offense. The end result is owned by one person - RR. There's one thing we'll both agree on...Sunday/Monday will be very interesting.
November 24th, 2010 at 1:12 PM ^
You're constantly harping on the fact that he's run a 9-4 program that he inherited in the ground. You've been saying that for as long as I've seen you post. Well over a year. You use that line, or a reasonable facsimile of it, every single time this issue gets brought up.
But, I dont think you have come to any grips with the roster situation. Three years later you are still butt hurt that many players bailed on the program and the new coach. I was saddened by it as well. But pretty much realized it left us in shambles. Its why I am patient with the direction and the players. You are still holding a grudge about it. Get the fuck over it, or you're not even going to be happy with the new coach.
I have critized Rodriguez plenty in my blogging and podcasting career, and have also said a guy like Harbuagh can coach this team anytime and I wont lose sleep replacing the current head coach. He literally is my favorite UM player of all time, so bring him on.. He was way to slow to figure out the team's defensive needs and he's still chasing it. I dont think he'll ever catch it.
But, I'm getting sick and fucking tired of listening to people like you denigrate the players accomplishments (and you have been, All this bullshit about we shouldnt be happy with wins over PU and Illinois. You've made comments like this thorughout the last couple of weeks. Fuck it, I'm happy the kids won those games. Its a necessary step for them to eventually get the program where it belongs. Just embrace it and quit being a dick about it) this year by using the notion that we're not even back to where we were when the coach was hired. Yes, technically the team was 9-4 when he was hired, but that is far, far, far from the team he had when his first practice arrived.
And, lastly, and I really do mean it. Happy Thanksgiving. You are more than welcome at our tailgates next year, locale TBD. As long as Michigan is playing, you and I are cheering, regardless of coach. As long as that does not change, we're good despite this exchange.
(PS, the Colorado WR is Toney Clemons. In retrospect, maybe he was a guy Rich should not have re-recruited)
November 23rd, 2010 at 3:42 PM ^
I'm not sure what you are going for here. As you pointed out, Harbaugh has had one more year than Rodriguez. Their records and trajectories are remarkably similar over three years if compared fairly (first year to first year and so forth). The only extreme difference is the record of the respective school in the year immediately preceding year one of the respective coaching regimes (as has been well documented, Stanford: 1-11, U-M: 9-4).
For people using the records to say Harbaugh is a better coach than Rodriguez, for me it amounts to shoddy argumentation. People are saying, "Look, Harbaugh took a team that was 1-11 before he got there and they are 10-1 now. RR took a team that was 9-4 and cratered it, going 3-9 the next year, and they are only 7-4 and looking uncompetitive now."
That leaves out the very important fact that Harbaugh has had one more year to achieve the impressive win total (10) that makes RR look bad in comparison.
November 23rd, 2010 at 3:55 PM ^
Yes. You know what I'm going for here...Saying that Harbaugh and RR have shown similar improvement (as the above comment began) is completely false. Calling 1-11 vs 9-4 "the only extreme difference" really downplays how extreme the difference was. JH took over a terrible Stanford program while RR took over a Michigan program sniffing but not tasting greatness.
So Harbaugh had one more year to improve 10-11 games. How about his third year, when he still put out a 7 game improvement (again, for Stanford...no historic reputation...no recruiting advantage, etc.)? RR year 3? Still two games worse than before he got here.
It doesn't seem appropriate for a "debate" guy to ignore history.
November 23rd, 2010 at 5:06 PM ^
I still don't think you are seeing what I am seeing. Here are the records, side by side (I am no good with the tubes, so you get it without fancy charts):
RR Harbaugh
Year one: 3-9 4-8
Year two: 5-7 5-7
Year three 7-4 8-5
Year four: ??? 10-1
If Rodriguez should be fired for taking a team from 9-4 to 3-9, that is a reason he should have been fired in 2008 , not a reason he should be fired now. I think Harbaugh's success in year four is an argument for keeping Rodriguez, not hiring Harbaugh. It shows what someone with a similar trajectory can do.
Your argument regarding Year Zero (the year before the first year of the coaches under consideration) is that it's hard to take a team from 1-11 to 10-1, so Harbaugh is a good coach. I agree. There is no dispute there for any rational person, let alone peope who support Rodriguez.
I do not agree that taking Michigan from 9-4 to 3-9 means Rodriguez is a bad coach.
I do not believe, further, that the Year Zero records mean that the work of Harbaugh and Rodriguez during their tenures is incomparable.
November 23rd, 2010 at 5:49 PM ^
I see what you're saying, I just think it ignores the most fundamental point - that RR inherited a successful program with solid roots (and has yet to bring it back to year 0) while JH took over a nothing (and dramatically improved it). I, frankly, thought RR merited firing last year (as you suggest) but have tried to hold strong hoping that we'd see real progress on both sides of the ball. It just hasn't happened.
November 23rd, 2010 at 12:00 PM ^
Harbaugh should be frozen in suspended animation, like Hans Solo in Star Wars, until and unless it is clear that either RR is staying for a looong time, or he is finished.
San Francisco fans used up all their sports karma for at least five years in the Giants World Series run. (It was worth every penny, in my mind.)
November 23rd, 2010 at 12:18 PM ^
That are unaware, Hans Solo is Han Solo's German cousin, who was, ironically enough, an ACTUAL nerf-herder. Sadly, he too was encased in carbonite due to a mix-up in the bounty posters (an easy mistake to make).
Another little known fact is that Boba Fett's cousin, Bobby Fett was the one to bring in Hans Solo, which really pissed off Jaba the Hutt, effectively ending his bounty hunting career. It's a tragic tale, really.
November 23rd, 2010 at 12:47 PM ^
Post of the week!
November 23rd, 2010 at 1:17 PM ^
Plus a million to you, sir!
November 23rd, 2010 at 10:28 PM ^
I worked out yesterday for the first time in a long time. Did a ton of rope work like you see the MMA guys do. Everytime I laugh my lungs and lats feel like they are being dipped in battery acid .
Your post was one of the funniest things I have ever seen...and I hate you.
November 23rd, 2010 at 12:03 PM ^
I don't know, maybe because he's winning at a program that doesn't win very often. Maybe because he took a program that was a disaster under Walt Harris and has it in the top 6 of the BCS standings. Maybe it's because he, on almost a yearly basis, beats teams that are more talented then his Stanford squad (I thought coaches didn't do that????). I'm sure I can think of more reasons.
November 23rd, 2010 at 12:09 PM ^
Sounds like the resume of a former West Virginia coach...
November 23rd, 2010 at 12:58 PM ^
lol no shit.. WVU was terrible before RR, and pretty much every other place RR was at was terrible and he completely turned them around, whether he was the coach or the O coordinator. But get this.. no one is ever gonna believe this.. "It took time"
People seem to think because he turned WVU around in 3 years we are magically gonna turn into title contenders in 3 years as well. As long as we continue to win more games each year i have no problem with that.
November 23rd, 2010 at 1:23 PM ^
Wasn't WVU 7-5 before RR took over? Stanford was 1-11 before Harbaugh took over.
November 23rd, 2010 at 3:01 PM ^
Your post has me believing that Michigan somehow needed to be turned around. How is this? Did we not just complete a 9-4 season before RR inheritance? Not to mention the ONLY B10 team to beat Tebow...in his Heisman year.
And PLEASE do not throw the infamous "bare cupboard" argument at me. Anytime that is mentioned it is an insult to every single person associated with that football program. It's Michigan after all.
I am not sure Harbaugh is the answer, but I know with certainty the RR simply is not working out.
November 23rd, 2010 at 3:33 PM ^
Implicit in your comment is an attitude with which I take some umbrage, and that is the lingering anger over the 3-9 season. That is the crater most people are comparing to Stanford's 1-11 season. (As an aside, Harbaugh was 4-8 in his first year, which we should have been had we been able to surpass the mighty-mighty Rockets, the only game I attended that year, aiiieeeeieieieiei....). Most people are angry that 3-9 happened at the hands of Rodriguez, and the thinking is, "Wait, we can't measure expectations against a 3-9 season RR created - he gets held to the Michigan standard. That is 9 wins, minimum, which we had the year before he came."
Myself, I don't care who caused 3-9 (or even really why it happened), I just never want it to happen again. It did happen, though, and some players who contributed that season are still around. But they are now 7-4. I like that progress.
Thinking about it some more, the 4-8 in Harbaugh's first season (of four) should not be an aside. I feel like anti-RR people who are also pro-Harbaugh use 1-11 to mark the improvement of Harbaugh, when it really should be based on his first year, 4-8.
November 23rd, 2010 at 3:50 PM ^
...the 4-8 in Harbaugh's first season (of four) should not be an aside. I feel like anti-RR people who are also pro-Harbaugh use 1-11 to mark the improvement of Harbaugh, when it really should be based on his first year, 4-8.
How can you ignore the state of the program prior to the new coach's arrival? I know your logo says "debate", but don't you have to deal with facts even when don't fit your overall argument? Michigan got worse under RR while Stanford got better under Harbaugh. It's pretty simple.
November 23rd, 2010 at 5:11 PM ^
See above: this proves my point. You just think 3-9 should never happen at Michigan. That's fine. But the quality of the program in the season before the arrival of the new coach has almost nothing to do with the quality of said coach. As we are seeing here, though, it has a lot to do with the expectations of the fans.
November 23rd, 2010 at 5:41 PM ^
What are you talking about? While I agree that 3-9 should never happen at Michigan (and hope you agree), that wasn't what I said.
...the quality of the program in the season before the arrival of the new coach has almost nothing to do with the quality of said coach
That statement is correct, but isn't one that anyone is arguing. The quality of the program before his arrival has everything to do with measuring the performance of the new coach in terms of whether he improves the team or not. Has RR improved from his 3-9? Yes, but so what? Maybe he should have lost every game...then he'd have huge improvement (especially since what came before doesn't matter to you).
November 23rd, 2010 at 6:23 PM ^
I don't agree with you, and that's it. You think U-M's record pre-RR says something about how good he is as a coach, and I don't because I don't understand how something that occurred at U-M while RR was coaching WVU should affect my judgment regarding the quality of Rodriguez's coaching. If you explain how it should affect my judgment, then I will agree with you.
On the flipside, I don't think taking Stanford from 1-11 to 4-8 says anything about Harbaugh, either. I think Harbuagh is a good coach because his teams have gotten better every year with age, same as Rodriguez's.
November 23rd, 2010 at 10:33 PM ^
Does it help RR's case that Carr could only go 9-4 with NC level talent?
Just wondering
November 24th, 2010 at 9:54 AM ^
November 23rd, 2010 at 3:01 PM ^
Your post has me believing that Michigan somehow needed to be turned around. How is this? Did we not just complete a 9-4 season before RR inheritance? Not to mention the ONLY B10 team to beat Tebow...in his Heisman year.
And PLEASE do not throw the infamous "bare cupboard" argument at me. Anytime that is mentioned it is an insult to every single person associated with that football program. It's Michigan after all.
I am not sure Harbaugh is the answer, but I know with certainty the RR simply is not working out.
November 23rd, 2010 at 1:14 PM ^
that coached in the BIG East, not the BIG 10.
November 23rd, 2010 at 1:39 PM ^
beat UGA and Oklahoma at the BCS Bowl. The Big East theory is out of the window when you beat this caliber of team at the BCS Bowl game.
November 23rd, 2010 at 7:09 PM ^
And Boise State beat Oklahoma in the Fiesta Bowl. Doesn't mean they would dominate the Big 12. In a one game situation anything can happen, doesn't always translate over a course of a conference season. I mean look at the Big East this year, it Michigan were in it, they would probably be at the top of the conference. A team we dominated to start the season (UConn) is currently in second place and holds the tiebreaker if Pitt were to lose.
November 23rd, 2010 at 1:38 PM ^
I don't think anyone will dispute that Rrod had a great run at WV. He turned the team into a national phenomonom. But at some point, you have to start judging him by his tenure at Michigan. He wouldn't be the first coach to experience great success at one school, get the promotion to a top program, and fail. Willingham's run at Stanford and failures at Notre Dame and Washington comes to mind.
November 23rd, 2010 at 12:04 PM ^
I would love to see him coach the Niners, or some other Pro franchise. Then I wouldn't have to think about the dismantling of this offense under a pro style coach...
November 23rd, 2010 at 12:05 PM ^
Harbaugh would come in here, breathing fire, promising in no uncertain terms that we will beat MSU and OSU. And he will make it his sole mission in life to do so. That's the guy he is. As opposed to RR, who comes in saying, "I'm really looking forward to the challenge of playing them, and I think our guys will be prepared."
November 23rd, 2010 at 12:14 PM ^
who will go for two up 48-21.
DO NOT WANT.
November 23rd, 2010 at 1:51 PM ^
You don't want to utterly destroy teams? I wouldn't mind if we did, ever. To each his own I guess.
November 23rd, 2010 at 3:22 PM ^
Is that hugely different than calling a pass play for Devin Gardner on 4th down when we led Bowling Green 58-21?
November 23rd, 2010 at 12:18 PM ^
He's that guy. Jim Tressel is that guy too. He thinks about beating Michigan every day of the year and you've seen the results.
November 23rd, 2010 at 12:21 PM ^
Hey, I've got a ridiculous premise based on no evidence and stereotypes of what coaches do. I know you'll be interested, mackbru.
I've often thought the biggest problem with the RR era has been his refusal to PROMISE WINS. DAMN IT, WE COULD BE 11-0 RIGHT NOW IF HE'D JUST PROMISE SOME DAMN WINS.
November 23rd, 2010 at 1:20 PM ^
... the biggest problem is that Rich DOESN'T UNDERSTAND THE IMPORTANCE OF THE OSU RIVALRY!!!
November 23rd, 2010 at 12:46 PM ^
....followed by promptly getting hammered and blowing through a stop sign.
Sorry, couldn't resist. :)
November 23rd, 2010 at 1:04 PM ^
That means absolutely zero when it comes to whether or not Harbaugh would win those games.
Losing to MSU and OSU sucks. Hell, the past three years have been bad enough to reignite the long dormant MSU-UM rivalry. But I never want to see this program turn into one that enters the season thinking "we have to beat MSU and OSU." I want the program to be "we have to win every game, including MSU and OSU."
November 23rd, 2010 at 12:06 PM ^
http://mgoblog.com/mgoboard/what-makes-people-think-harbaugh-would-take-job
Can we just go back to debating whether Devin will redshirt or not?
November 23rd, 2010 at 12:14 PM ^
It sounded from one of Brian's recent updates that it was pretty much decided he would redshirt. So I'm not sure there is that much a debate there. I'd rather debate whether 1977 Mary Markley is the best dorm of all time. I wasn't part of it, but they'd get my vote.
November 23rd, 2010 at 12:21 PM ^
I was alluding to the numerous horse-beatings that occurred in August, like this one:
http://mgoblog.com/mgoboard/should-michigan-red-shirt-devin-gardner
(I think we're all hoping, now, that he receives a medical redshirt...)
November 23rd, 2010 at 3:09 PM ^
sure he was joking, too.
November 23rd, 2010 at 12:13 PM ^
It's OSU week, and this topic is a waste of time when it isn't.
Is it too much to ask people to get off Harbaugh's jock for a week? If not, then I'd like to see weekly threads on Spurrier, Les Miles, Saban and every other mildly competent coach in the NCAA because it's exactly as relevant.
November 23rd, 2010 at 12:14 PM ^
...on flimsy evidence (e-opinion only):
Harbaugh is destined to be an NFL HC, not Michigan's HC. Given his brother's success with the Ravens and his own success at Stanford, Jim/Bo seems a no brainer this off season for one of several teams who will be looking for a fresh start. Given his strong NFL player pedigree, he seems just as likely to aspire to NFL success as success at our mutual alma mater, but the money's so much better in the League.
November 23rd, 2010 at 12:27 PM ^
There is so much emotional investment in Jim Harbaugh on the part of some Michigan fans that it borders on the ridiculous. Personally, I'm not sure he wants to be the HC in Ann Arbor ... Like you, I think his eyes are on an NFL prize.
Considering the system he runs at Stanford, I am not certain that - even if he did come to U-M - that he'd be the Instant Savior many believe. Once again, the players on the squad are ill-suited to the different style.
I have also heard a few folks around town suggest that with Harbaugh, Michigan would again be "tough", as though RR's preferred approach is to teach "pansy". If ever there was a nonsensical statement, that's it.
November 23rd, 2010 at 1:16 PM ^
Yup, that's the problem right there. See, the spread would work just fine in the Big Ten, but the problem is Rod's particular brand of "pansy spread." The pansy spread really only works in the Big East.
You know, while the above comment was meant to be sarcastic, I realized that the pansy spread actually would probably do pretty well in the Big East.
November 23rd, 2010 at 2:11 PM ^
Go get 'em, killer.
November 23rd, 2010 at 1:47 PM ^
We aren't tough and we aren't respected anymore by our rivals. See Wisconsin running the ball without hesitation the entire second half.
Not saying that is Rich's preferred approach, but three years in and here we are.
Like to see us turn that tide on Saturday and show some signs we can play with the big boys. The ones we used beat down yearly.