Lloyd Carr Talks!
I find it awkward and interesting that Lloyd doesn't discuss RR or his team in public. Hearing Lloyd babble on about the energy David Brandon has brought and the great deeds of Mary Sue, but nothing about the current team and RR is awkward.
Hearing Defran talk about bringing Lloyd back on the show again at a later date to talk about Super Conferences or some other bull shit, rings hollow to me.
Lloyd doesn't need to talk about the current team if not inclined, but the silence will continue to be awkward for some of us.
But why does it even matter? Lets stipulate, for the purpose of argument, that Lloyd doesn't like Rodriguez. What now/ What's changed? Are we not 8-16 in the past two years? Does Labadie fill out his paperwork? Does Rodriguez make sure QC coaches aren't at practice? Seriously - this is why Rodriguez is on the hotseat - because he has lost. Carr waxing poeting like Rodriguez was a latter-day Mowgli doesn't get Michigan more wins.
So, again - who cares? Carr's opinion isn't, and hasn't, been relevent.
Disagree, if Lloyd came out with a strong opinion on RR it would be front page news. Lloyd is relevant. I'm not upset with Lloyd or disappointed with him, because I don't know the reason for his silence, and his silence I find interesting.
RR feels like a latter day Mowgli, because Lloyd left him with just the bear necessities
If Carr came out and said, "Rich Rodriguez is a good coach and I'm excited about the direction this program is headed," I think that would pretty much eliminate the hot-seat treatment (at least among the people who count: Michigan fans). The discussion would be about "when" we win X amount of games rather than "what if we only" win X amount of games.
There could be a million reasons why he hasn't done that so it seems silly to speculate, but it is definitely weird to have the former coach conducting an interview as if the football program he was a part of for 28 years no longer exists. At this point in the year, how long can you go in a conversation without bringing up the upcoming football season? It is probably the first thing that comes up when I talk to fellow Michigan fans and gets mentioned in at least the first five minutes when talking to strangers or homeless people who I give change to in exchange for their thoughts on the Tate v. Denard debate.
Instead of saying something like, "Obi Ezeh is a great kid, and I'm really pulling for him to have a bounce back season," (a statement that would have nothing at all to do with Rodriguez), Carr acts like the immediate future of Michigan football is the farthest thing from his mind. Not only is that puzzling, it is a huge missed opportunity to have a positive, well-known, and well-respected ambassador for the program out in the public eye (which is what I thought was Carr's job description the last two years).
Its NOT puzzling. The interview is a retrospective of Lloyd Carr's time at Michigan, because the occassion for the interview is LLOYD CARR'S RETIREMENT. It's not a "temperature check" on the program.
Do people honestly believe that Rodriguez's precarious position is a product of the media, and the lack of institutional support, rather than 8-16? I support Rodriguez. I think he's a good coach. BUT HE HAS LOST TWICE AS MANY GAMES AS HE HAS WON. This is the worst 2 year stretch in the modern-era of Michigan Football. THAT'S why people don't like him. 90% of Michigan fans don't obsessively follow the program on MGoBlog, don't know who the fuck Rosenberg is. They just care that Michigan football has sucked. And there is nothing Lloyd could have said or done to avoid:
a) the attrition
b) the losing
c) the violations
In other words, the CONSTANT Lloyd bashing on this site is a side-show for people who for some reason have less faith in a man who served the Michigan community for over a decade in an always-honorable fashion and led us to our greatest height in the modern era over a seemingly good guy who has been here for 26 months.
Lloyd Carr's comments or post retirement behavior have not effected the results on the field at all. And isn't that what we care about? The results? What else is there to talk about? The attention some people on this blog give ALL this other stuff is nuts. This has nothing to do with wins and losses. So why even get involved?
I said earlier that this interview may not have been the venue, but Carr has at no point that I can remember talked about the current/future Michigan football team. That is strange for anyone who even considers themselves a Michigan fan, much less the former head coach who has been with the athletic department for 30 years. It also wouldn't require any comment on Rodriguez to speak positively about the program (it could all be about the kids and just wanting Michigan to win).
People (if you can call them that) also hate Rodriguez because they think he will continue to lose. Lloyd Carr's silence and lack of openly expressed optimism does have an effect on that view. If he said he was excited about the future of the program and saw things improving, you don't think that would quiet the critics a little?
And this is important because college football is a perception game. How many recruits have said concern about Rodriguez's job security is a big worry for them? Do you think that would be as big a worry if Carr were out trumpeting the future of Michigan football, instead of acting like the program were some disobedient daughter that he no longer talks about because she ran off and got an abortion?
I'm not even blaming Carr or saying it is his responsibility to do any of this. I am merely lamenting a lost opportunity. I don't know why people insist on denying the fact that Lloyd Carr could have and could still have an enormous positive impact as an ambassador/promoter of the program, but that for whatever reason (and it may very well be a super valid reason) he has decided not to do that.
In other words, the CONSTANT Lloyd bashing on this site is a side-show for people who for some reason have less faith in a man who served the Michigan community for over a decade in an always-honorable fashion and led us to our greatest height in the modern era over a seemingly good guy who has been here for 26 months.I think it goes even further...that those who are so wrapped up in it, have LESS faith in Rich. But they've created a persona that won't allow them to think otherwise, so they have to justification for it. Their confidence has been shaken, and they're whistling past the graveyard. And they have to attack others to justify it. I think Rich has shown he can coach. Which means, he can do a good job coaching. That's why I don't think 8-4 or something is ridiculous, because, after having a few down seasons, a coach is due for an up one. I think he can win. Those who say they have so much confidence in him...but can't see how we could go more than 6-6...well, either they worry he can't coach, or they are more worried that he hasn't done a good job since getting here. And if he can't coach at Michigan? He'll be gone soon enough. I'm not going to worry about perceived slights. It's about W and L's. And those don't happen till September.
If Carr came out and said, "Rich Rodriguez is a good coach and I'm excited about the direction this program is headed," I think that would pretty much eliminate the hot-seat treatment (at least among the people who count: Michigan fans).
You can't be serious. Do you honestly think that if he said this, Michigan fans would go, "Welp...I guess we'd be okay with another 5-7 season, as long as Lloyd likes him"?
It wouldn't change a goddamn thing.
Of course fans will not be happy with a string of 5-7 seasons. However, right now there is a perception among a large segment of uninformed Michigan fans that the program has somehow been broken by Rodriguez and is destined for just such an outcome. I am positive Rich Rodriguez would/should be fired if the team goes 5-7 next year, but I also think there is basically zero chance that happens so there is no real use in bringing it up. If Carr expressed the same sort of opinion at any point (that the team is obviously headed in the right direction and can only get better) that would go a long way toward stamping out the unrest among the fanbase. People would be optimistically looking forward to the upcoming turnaround rather than biting their nails about how many losses it will take to get the coach canned.
College football is a perception game to a large extent (people vote to decide the best team and high school players get to decide where they want to go to school, for example). Acting like Lloyd Carr's attitude/comments don't have an impact on the way Michigan is perceived requires a lot of denial.
Or that Lloyd and Rich should be saying this about each other...?
I wish I could give you more than one for the last line. People are getting too bent out of shape over things that people are NOT saying. If Lloyd did say something, regardless if it was positive or negative, they would still get bent out of shape.
This thread is terrible. I'm getting a bit tired of everyone trying to decipher some secret meaning from every piece of Michigan football publicity.
Ok. let me set the record straight . I deeply respect lloyd carr and am tremendously grateful for the nat'l title won under his tenure. however, i've been a season ticket holder for nearly 30 years and have seen a lot. Bo gave bump elliott a lot of credit for letting him run his program. the parallels for Bo and RR are many. bump had bo's back. I'm not so sure about lloyd having RR's back. saying nothing is a lot different than giving full support. just saying.
It's just my opinion, but RR had a lot of success at WVU prior to his hire at UM. Lloyd had tenure. he was the only guy left after moeller was let go. if lloyd was the be all end all, he would have been grabbed by another program. but it didn't happen. why? mccartnery, nehlon, et al, all got grabbed. why not lloyd?
anyway, my point is not to bash lloyd, but he obviously hasn't put 100% support behind RR. and that should happen for anyone who's received his livelihood from an institution the past 30 years. just sayin.
RR will be successful, if given everyone's full support. OK. enough with my rant. i look forward to the UConn opening game...
It's just my opinion, but RR had a lot of success at WVU prior to his hire at UM. Lloyd had tenure. he was the only guy left after moeller was let go. if lloyd was the be all end all, he would have been grabbed by another program. but it didn't happen. why? mccartnery, nehlon, et al, all got grabbed. why not lloyd?
I'm not sure what your point is, and I bet you don't, either.
Carr mentioned that he was contacted by the NFL, but turned down the opportunity.
Programs don't get much (any?) bigger than Michigan's, especially in the late 1990s/early 2000s. Why would he go to another program?
You're saying that he should have gone the way of such coaching legends as...Don Nehlen.
Wow.
Did Bo ever say about Bump "well, he left me some talent..but boy, were they a bunch of fat lazy asses". Because, while it may have been technically true, Bo never put anything negative on Bump. Bo acknowledged Bump could have made things really tough on him. And didn't. And Lloyd COULD really make things tough on Rich...but hasn't. For which he should be a bit more grateful.
And BTW, Lloyd was all set to become the head coach at MSU...when Bo basically forbid it. Who says so? Bo. So, apparently Bo was more concerned about coaching against Carr than all these other guys who got grabbed...
Support doesn't win football games. Rich will win if he and his staff and his players do a better job. They should be able to, they've shown the ability in the past. But words aren't going to win football games.
The whole thing was strange, I agree. Maybe a case of better off not having done the interview because of how it is being interpreted.
I would bet since Jeff DeFran was doing the interview, it was pre-established that the interview would be kept to the past, and at no point move into speculation about today's program.
This thread somehow got more dumb overnight
Again, please quit turning Michigan football into As The World Turns. Stick to Scout or MLive if you want to parse every damn thing.
Just let the man retire. He's done more for the unviersity through this day than any of you mopes who somehow want to question his loyalty. Give it a rest you tin foil hat wearing loons
Lloyd is uncomfortably avoiding the elephant in the room is in no way bashing our former coach. It does speak volumes about how he views the current staff and what is going on. I agree that Lloyd's opinion of the situtation would have no effect on how the team will play, but it does effect how some of the fanbase view the current staff.
I think he is not being a Michigan Man by clearly undermining our current staff. Bo would never have done this, and even if he hated RR he would support the team publicly. I know that Lloyd isn't Bo, but come on man - we need all the support we can get. Some of the things RR said about the team's situation when he arrived were 100% true - whether it hurts or not. GROW UP LLOYD - we need you right now and you're leaving us hanging in the wind like an x-girlfriend.
Silence "speaks volumes"???
Silence doesn't say one motherfucking thing unless you're putting words in his closed mouth. Which...you are.
And again - IT DOESN'T MATTER. Show me how Lloyd's silence impacts 8-16. Please.
that his opinion has nothing to do with how the team performs. Lloyd could post a youtube video of himself dressed as a panda on a tightrope and it would stilll have no effect on the team, or the record. IT DOES EFFECT OUR FANBASE. That is my only point. There are people out there who might give RR a bit more support if Lloyd said they should. How hard is it for him to come out publicly and say that he is "all in" for Michigan and that he supports the team and the coach? He's spending tons more energy by not saying anything.
As far as the "silence" and me putting words into his mouth - let me ask you this: If you were going to interview Lloyd would you ask about the current state of the team and its direction? Of course you would, unless you were commanded not to bring it up. This is obviously the case, and if you don't think that says something about how Lloyd feels, you're dumber than I thought.
Of course you would, unless you were commanded not to bring it up. This is obviously the case, and if you don't think that says something about how Lloyd feels, you're dumber than I thought.
Ah. Ad hominem always works well.
When you stop operating in a world where your pet theories are considered unimpeachable fact, you'll be worth debating with.
You want LLOYD CARR to prove he's "All In" for Michigan? Who the fuck are you? I have never heard a more preposterous thing uttered. The day that the man who worked for this University and contributed as much as he did to the school's community needs to prove to "Internet Commenter Guy" that he cares about the University is sort of sad.
Let's say my "pet theory" that Lloyd is not supportive of RR, does not like what is going on, etc.. is wrong. Why then does he refuse to comment on the team, coach, situation? Why does he seem like he's talking about a school who used to play football in the past? Why does he refuse to comment on the present?
Obviously Lloyd was all about Michigan and will always be. You're absolutely right that I am nobody and that he has done more for UM than I ever could. I'm just saying that if he just said two sentences about RR and the team in a positive light, it would go a long way for some of the nay-sayers in our fanbase. I don't question whether he cares about the University - I just want his help in our time of need.
Google is your friendhttp://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=4591638
Headline:
LLOYD CARR SAYS HE SUPPORST MICHIGAN COACH RICH RODRIGUEZ
If you need to search the internet to prove his support, that support probably hasn't been all that strong. I don't think anybody needs to hit up Google to find out if say, Jim Brandstatter, supports the current coaching staff.
A gruff response only prompted by the fact that Carr sat with opposing fans during the Iowa game doesn't sound like a ringing endorsement to me or anyone else who read that article.
If you need to search the internet to prove his support, that support probably hasn't been all that strong.
So we shouldn't, you know, consult the official record to see if something is true or not, we should guage the public perception of idiots? Carr has publicly supported Rodriguez. It's up to the public whether they choose to acknowledge it.
Like this:
"Rich is a young guy, (and) he's got a great background for such a young guy," Carr said during his interview with Frank Beckmann and Jim Brandstatter. "What we're seeing here offensively throughout this season is a great thing for the future of Michigan football.
"The transition a year ago you could expect (the struggles) because what they were looking for in a quarterback. Certainly what we have here is exciting. I'm excited for the future."
"I've had a lot of conversations with Rich Rodriguez down through the last 18, 20 months, and I told him from the beginning if he needed me for any reason, just call me," Carr said.
"I did not want to be a coach who's at practice and hanging around and answering questions from the media about what I saw. I didn't think that was good for Rich or our program."
Carr said it was "ridiculous" to suggest that he didn't support the program, and noted that he was "absolutely not" a candidate for the AD position.
So what do you want the man to do? He's had many conversations with Rich. He's offered his help. He doesn't want to interfere. He thinks Rich's tough first year was perfect valid (he said this before the PSU game, so the losses had yet to really come). Rich's offense is a "great thing" for Michigan football. He's excited.
What do you want? Lloyd wearing a sandwich board with "I LOVE RICHROD" on it?
EDIT: You added more actually supportive statements before I could respond.
I haven't said Carr should've been more supportive or that he has to. All I said is that a more vocal, positive presence from him would be a huge positive for the program, and we haven't really gotten that the last two years
In other words, "I don't care how many quotes you pull out to prove I'm wrong, I'm going to repeat the same bullshit until I'm blue in the face."
Do you honestly think Lloyd Carr couldn't have been any more supportive of the current coaching staff or more positive/optimistic about the future of the program than he has the last two years? I'm not saying he should have but obviously he could have, and if he had done so (or chooses to do so in the future) I think it would have a great positive impact on the public perception of our program (which, like I said, is extremely important for recruiting, the lifeblood of any college football program).
Wouldn't Rich saying more nice things about Lloyd maybe engender more outward comments about Rich? I mean, everyone saying "Bo always supported them"....well, he was AD, solely so he could choose who would be coach....and might not have been so happy he hadn't. But beyond that....and for obvious reasons....Mo and Lloyd et al. always revered Bo, publicly and privately. And I'm guessing you'd find an even HARDER time finding quotes from Rich saying nice things about Lloyd than the contrary. And how much would it change the program...? Probably not a lick more...but no more or less Lloyd saying anything. But I guess, in our perception world I keep hearing about, it might make it sound like the Michigan program was evolving, instead of being overhauled, and that there was still a big happy family. Perception-wise, at least.
It would have been nice if there had been more direct engagement by both parties at the time of the hiring and less of the butt-hurt drama from both sides that has followed (and been ridiculously exacerbated by the pro-Lloyd v. pro-RR debate among fans). You would think with Carr still working in the AD there could have been a more coordinated, unified front, but I guess everyone was too busy filling out practice forms (ooops).
My main point is that the program seems to have missed the opportunity to have Carr (who I think is far more charismatic than people give him credit) continuing to act as a positive public face for the football program. Having him on TV or the radio joking about who would win a race between Denard and Navarre, or hyping up the stadium expansion, or talking about players to watch next year could really help the program's public image (and wouldn't really require Carr and Rodriguez to be best buds, if they aren't). For whatever reason this hasn't happened (maybe Rodriguez is the one putting a stop to it, who knows) and that to me is a shame.
With posts like this. Grow up Lloyd? Really? It's ok, if it's true, even if it hurts? So, if he came out and said, boy, Rich has done a crappy job so far...I mean, look at how much he's lost...that never used to happen at Michigan...it'd be ok, because it's "true"? Who cares if it hurts or not....
Why can't everyone just give Lloyd his dang props and move on?
get off the man's jock strap already.
didn't LC say he supports RR and will do anything asked of him by the current staff?
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=4591638
Headline:
LLOYD CARR SAYS HE SUPPORST MICHIGAN COACH RICH RODRIGUEZ
I'm late for work now, but this has been fun to debate. I have to say that I respect your opinion and that I just don't agree. Go Blue!
Unfortunately for you, your argument is based upon the incorrect premise that Lloyd Carr does not "supporst" Coach Rodriguez. He's gone on the record directly refuting what you think is implied by his "silence."
So, yeah, bow down to the King.
I've been critical of Lloyd in the past for his somewhat muted support for the new regime. The key words in that sentence are "somewhat muted." During his post-Florida victory interview he was asked about the future and I recall his saying "I want them to win every game." On two other occasions that I remember, he has gone on record as supporting RichRod. So there's that. But neither has he been particularly effusive in his support, a la Mike Bellotti with Chip Kelly or Bo with Gary (two examples that just leaped to mind; I'm sure there are others).
I think there are now two main explanations for LC's behavior:
- He totally supports Michigan, and by extension RichRod, and he just really really really hates talking to the media about much of anything, but especially controversial things.
- He secretly hopes RichRod will fail and will only do the barest of minima to offer enough in the way of lukewarm support that he doesn't get raked over the coals publicly (pretty sure he doesn't read or care about MGoBlog).
At this point, there is no real way to adjudicate between (1) and (2). So, in the absence of discriminating information, I choose to believe (1). Other people may feel differently, but I think we should all be honest that we really have no fucking actual idea about what the right answer is.
Mike Belotti is the AD of Oregon, Chip Kelly's boss, and the man who hired Kelly.
Bo and Moeller were both at one time bosses of Carr, and both hired him.
Carr had no prior relationship with Rodriguez.
Absolutely true, and I wasn't trying to argue that the situations are equivalent. They are not equivalent, for the reasons you mention.
My only point is (and has been) about optics and small-p politics. There have been three questions raised by this whole transition:
- Does Lloyd have the right to behave how he has behaved? This is a normative question, to which my answer is yes, yes, a thousand times yes. Here I share your outrage over that one thread about whether he somehow forfeited his "Michigan Man" status.
- Would things have worked out differently vis-a-vis Rodriguez's treatment in the local media had Lloyd behaved differently? This is an empirical question that involves an unobserved counterfactual. We can speculate, but we have no idea.
- Should Lloyd have been more effusive in his support for Rodriguez? This is another normative question and the only one I'm really interested in. I say yes, lots of other people have said no. I think reasonable people can disagree on this.
A 3rd option is a combination of your 2 possibilities (my edits in italics)
3. He totally supports Michigan, and by extension RichRod, and he just really really really hates talking to the media about much of anything, but especially controversial things. However, on a personal level, he secretly dislikes RichRod and, due to being a man who doesn't lie or sugar coat, he will only do the barest of minima to offer enough in the way of lukewarm support for RR himself (not the program in general), that he doesn't get raked over the coals publicly (pretty sure he doesn't read or care about MGoBlog).
We undertake the risk of nuclear war. It seems one of us here should be a coward? So, I guess I'll be.
A third option would be to strike a deal. Trade our missiles in Turkey for theirs in Cuba ....
Wait ... What were we talking about?
We know that Carr fully supports Michigan. Why can't some accept that for whatever personal reasons, he has been less than effusive in public praise of RR?
So should the media now ask RR: Are you disappointed in Carr? Do you wish he supported you more? Are you enemies? Did you have him fired? RR can't win with those questions, any more than Carr can with talking about RR.
Carr, if anything, has always been classy. Supposing he isn't best buds with RR, what good would it do to say anything?
RR has always been his own man too . . . he doesn't need Carr to prop him up.
On thing that bugs me . . . while I liked Bo, he seems to get a free pass from Blue fans, when Carr was the one with the NC.
I've said it before, I'll say it again: I loved Carr, but it was time for him to retire, and I'm thrilled RR is our current coach, and fervently hope he will have a successful season, particularly in the win loss columns.
DeFran actually had something worth listening to when they promo'd it, and people either don't listen, or are out of state...a nice chat, with a retiring hero...thought people might be interested, or have missed it.
Instead, it takes like one post for it to deteriorate into..."Whhhhyyyyyyy doesn't everyone love Rich Rod as much as I do" insecure bullshit. And another half dozen I have had zero impact on the program or school people telling a guy who has given 30 years to the school, and more than some guy on the internet's whole lineage will every give to the University how to be a real "Michigan Man".
Get a grip. Rich will win. Or he will lose. Your hurt feelings will not help or hinder him in any way. Either REALLY believe in Rich, and believe he can coach, and WILL win....Or don't. But stop trying to tear everyone down to make you feel better about your shaken confidence in what you were once so sure in (because he HAD to be better than Lloyd...and after complaining, and getting the change I wanted...it MUST STILL BE LLOYD'S FAULT WE'RE NOT WINNING!!!) Jeeze.