John U. Bacon weighs in on Izzo & Dantonio
On the difference between Izzo and Dantonio's situations"I would make a distinction between Izzo's situation and Dantonio's," Bacon said. "As far as I know, Coach Izzo's got three situations to answer for. One of course is Travis Walton, the one being discussed, also Adreian Payne and Keith Appling were both part of an incident with a woman that looks horrible, and what happened will be a question worth answering for sure. We don't know about that. In Dantonio's case, he's got a ten-year pattern of 16 players accused of sexual assault over this stretch.
"I'm not dismissing in any way Izzo's situation, but it seems to be at least contained. Now, how bad that is, we're going to find out. I don't see Dantonio's as contained. I see it as a pattern that has been rolling out for a decade, class after class, and that, to me, is a different situation."
http://michiganradio.org/post/bacon-izzo-dantonio-need-be-ready-some-tough-and-necessary-questions
I'm not sure why Bacon is stating that Izzo has his situation "contained". Contained, because from what we know thus far, he's only dealing with Walton and Appling/Payne? That seems like a strange choice of phrase since we just found out more info yesterday when it was reported that Walton was living with Izzo when both of his issues happened. And who were the other two basketball players involved in the gang rape with Walton? That doesn't seem like a contained situation to me. I do know that Izzo was frazzled and lost after these last two games and now he can expect to get grilled about Walton's living arrangement with him going forward.
Dantonio clearly has a massive culture and image problem to deal with and I'm fairly confident that more damning evidence will come out on the football team. And this narrative from spartys that Dantonio was so upright because he booted four assaulters last year is nonsense. Those guys were only booted from the team because of the Nassar ugliness and ESPN snooping around campus. Unlike Izzo, Dantonio has the sad luxury of not having to go in front of the media 2-3 times a week until the end of March.
January 30th, 2018 at 11:03 AM ^
And you may be right.
I'll grab some popcorn and join you in the theatre shortly.
January 30th, 2018 at 12:12 PM ^
Very well said. This is a systemic issue, not a process issue.
Dantonio flat out lied when he said "this is new ground for us" on the allegations last year that lead to the players being kicked off the team. The fact is, that was only new ground in that it's escalated further and further to get to that point.
Remember Glenn Winston? The guy who was immediately reinstated the day he got out of jail (due to overcrowding)? Link - and then... was involved in the Rather Hall incident (along with 8 other football players) a few months later? Link.
There is something to be said about second chances, but there's also a point where we have to ask whether allowing elite athletes to continue to participate in your sport becomes less about second chances and more about enablement because you want to win. In my mind, Dantonio is way past that point, and was willing to take massive risks (Auston Robertson) to try to win.
This story (Dantonio) shouldn't just be about sexual assault. Yes, it's an issue, yes it's real and needs to be addressed (and not just at MSU), but this is also about the creation of a culture that creates little to any repercussions for violence.
I think Dantonio is so deep in that he may truly believe he should act defiant when someone accusses that culture of protecting individuals who may have engaged in sexual assault.
January 30th, 2018 at 12:46 PM ^
About those. I used to have some grudging respect for Dantonio for those "second chance" opportunities. While it gave him some unfair advantage in that he didn't have to lose out on a good football player if there was some troublesome backstory... it was still somewhat admirable that he was willing to take a chance and help someone turn their life around.
But he didn't really do that. Giving someone a second chance implies they would be encouraged, and motivated, to change thier ways. Instead the culture seemed to foster a sense of these players being insulated from discipline and/or prosecution. Dantonio will use these guys while they are on his team. How well do they fare post-college?
January 30th, 2018 at 2:35 PM ^
Agreed, in my opinion at least, it's become clear that "second chances" by Dantonio are simply about using the atheltic prowess of an individual rather than trying to create a good life for someone who had a previous issue.
I put it in there more because I was trying not to paint with too broad of a brush - I acknowledge that there are instances were someone could have one bad act but otherwise be a good person, do the right thing going forward, etc. Identifying who those people are (as opposed to the person who will be a recidivist) is extremely difficult of course. And too easy to identify in hindsight.
January 30th, 2018 at 1:24 PM ^
I'm not sure a sexually violent person deserves a second chance here. Drunk driving? Yes, with counseling. Punching a guy at a bar? Sure, with counseling and a very short leash. But sexual violence is deeply disturbing on a whole different level. There's just too much at risk, both in the possibility that person assaults again and in perpetuating the idea to younger athletes that maybe it's not that serious of a crime afterall. I think until that's communicated via zero tolerance, we will still see a culture of sexual violence against women.
January 30th, 2018 at 1:28 PM ^
Sexual violence and also, other violence. That one player broke the skull of the hockey player and unprovoked.
January 30th, 2018 at 2:42 PM ^
Point taken - I was speaking relatively broadly on second chances for a lot of different character issues, but acknowledge that I didn't do a good job of conveying that.
I also think there's a large spectrum of what we're talking about - both from an offense perspective and a repercussions perspective. For instance, Grant Perry's crime v. Appling/Payne accusations. From the repercussions side, our bar has to above "there wasn't criminal prosecution" in my mind - especially when it comes to sexual assault issues (which are notoriously difficult to prosecute).
I agree the bar needs to be set high for anything that touches on violence, sexual assault, etc. It probably is a fact-specific inquiry, which, falls on the coaches...
January 30th, 2018 at 10:22 PM ^
Yes, I agree. I'm not a big fan of putting rape or assault in the same category as an unwanted advance that doesn't end in some kind of coercion.
January 30th, 2018 at 1:14 PM ^
January 30th, 2018 at 10:41 AM ^
I think Dantonio's issues with his players have been out in the open for some time. I don't think there are a lot of skeletons left to uncover. Dantonio is a hard headed prick, too, who won't give up the ship easily.
Izzo has the two issues John mentioned (Walton, Payne/Appling), which really never saw the light of day. I think it is factual that Walton stayed with Izzo for a period of time also, but I would want that confirmed, which is a massive problem. Also, Izzo looks absolutely miserable, I think he knows he's got big problems.
January 30th, 2018 at 11:10 AM ^
He has a daughter asking, “Yes daddy, what if had been me?”
January 30th, 2018 at 11:03 AM ^
Also Dantanio should be getting his feet held to the fire for accepting the commitment of a kid who had abused a woman in high school, not praised for kicking that person off the team when he did it again in college.
January 30th, 2018 at 11:28 AM ^
Insert MSU bro response: "DUDE THIS IS SUCH A WITCH HUNT."
No, bro, it's the truth coming out. You just don't like it because your two favorite coaches of all time are the targets of investigation.
January 30th, 2018 at 11:55 AM ^
whether it is 1 situation or 16 covering up sexual assault in the current environment is the death penalty to any coach, teacher, manager, docter, politician, etc.
And the lawsuits for MSU will be devastating for years to come, both in terms of big hits to the endowment and the reputation killing publicity. The State should force a university name change to get the word Michigan out of their charter.
January 30th, 2018 at 11:56 AM ^
Various comments in the thread argue over whether the percentage of athletes involved in these incidents is relevant versus whether the inaction of the coaches is more important. I'd suggest that they are both relevant. The percentage of athletes involved shows whether or not there is a pervasive culture of sexual assault in each of the programs. The inaction of the coaches to the specific incidents directly shows whether the coaches are culpable for fostering a culture permissive of sexual assault.
January 30th, 2018 at 12:00 PM ^
January 30th, 2018 at 12:18 PM ^
January 30th, 2018 at 12:37 PM ^
My take is that people didn't care enough to listen to individual victims. In the Nassar case, there was power in numbers. It was impossible to look the other way when there were so many victims. But when it's one case here, one case there, it's easier to brush it under the carpet. Sports, and football in particular, are culturally male. In my opinion, that's one of the reasons Sandusky's case got so much more play -- because he preyed on boys. It was like, He was molesting boys? Oh, that's a whole other level. Hopefully this opens peoples' eyes to predatory behavior, whether the victims are male or female.
January 30th, 2018 at 1:11 PM ^
survives this... as for Izzo, he may survive, but he'll be wounded, which in turn will likely significantly alter his previously held retirement plans
January 31st, 2018 at 7:00 PM ^
I usually find myself agreeing with him, but I tend to think the opposite is true here.
Dantonio has 1-2 accusations per year. Too many, but that alone doesn't mean he should be fired. It's about how he handles them. In the situation last offseason a coach and 2-3 players were accused of sexual assault. The university went radio silent for several months. Then dismissed them all. I'm not an expert in the field, but that seems reasonable. I don't know specifics of the other incidents other than what was outlined in the OTL report.
I've been happy with Harbaugh's response to incidents at Michigan, but he's had 4 accusations in 3 years (LTT, Nate Johnson, Grant Perry, and Jourdan Lewis- I think technically he was right after the season ended). It's a difficult, nuanced topic.
Izzo, OTOH, has the Appling /Payne incident and the Walton incidents (involving two other players), each of which appear to lack any response whatsoever. Which is crazy.
January 30th, 2018 at 2:37 PM ^
January 30th, 2018 at 3:09 PM ^
they are bringing on board to deal with all this, I doubt there will be much change. Engler is an MSU grad and Schuette is close with Dantonio, they won't force out the winningest coaches in their history in the revenue generating sports.
MSU put themselves on the map with basketball and now football. They would never bring in someone to tear it all down. They may put some much needed safeguards in place for female athletes and promise to investigate assault allegations in the future, but these slappies won't tear down the houses that Izzo and Dantonio have built. They will do nothing that will harm those situations or reputations.
No faith in that leadership. ESPN is about the only one that could force these guys out.
January 30th, 2018 at 7:02 PM ^
January 31st, 2018 at 7:54 AM ^
It may be different situations, but they both deserve swift treatment that relieves them of their coaching duties.