Is Notre Dame or Northwestern worth the coin over UM? $60K vs $30K
We all love and appreciate what UM has done for us. My sister's son was accepted last month, and he has a really good shot at ND and Northwestern too. I don't think he has any idea what he wants to study, so far he's just really well rounded. I know my sis and BIL will come to me and ask if the $30K per year premium over UM's in-state is worth it for that status badge. Even as an alum, it's a really tough question to answer. I know for a fact Notre Dame is nearly impossible to get into if you're not a legacy.
I'm sort of responsible for getting him hooked to even caring about NU and ND in the first place. I visited the campuses with him when he was in 9th and 10th grade, as I figured if he shot for them, he'd be a lock for UM. It worked, but he tried so hard that he has a very legit shot at both ND and NU, which kind of blows me away.
Is there a $XXXK household income threshold you should be at where this decision is a non-issue? e.g. under $200K go to UM, $350K+ let the kid go where he wants?
January 28th, 2015 at 6:44 PM ^
For undergrad? That may be the case but not even close for MBA.
January 28th, 2015 at 6:11 PM ^
last i saw, ND had the number 1 undergrad bschool.. am i missing something here?
i would say - go to ND if you are going into business because you probably dont have to apply to the ND bschool once you get there. so the odds of getting into a great bschool are greater at ND
January 28th, 2015 at 6:14 PM ^
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January 28th, 2015 at 6:25 PM ^
Ross is also top notch for back office and accounting careers.
January 28th, 2015 at 6:39 PM ^
I'm a ross undergrad and MAcc alum, and from what I recall the master in accounting program has an 80-90% big 4 placement rate. And that despite the fact that Ross doesn't have an undergraduate accounting program.
I can't speak to Northwestern or ND as I didn't go there, but Michigan has an excellent program in nearly everything, and on cost/prestige alone, it would be hard to pass up in state, with the exception of certain programs specifically (ie Journalism). I will say that from an alumni relations/connections standpoint, ND is equally as strong and would not discard it on those merits alone.
January 28th, 2015 at 6:46 PM ^
@jcgold Curious, why you bothered with the fifth year for the MAcc? Ross alone punches you a ticket to Big 4, consulting, a bulge bracket bank. The opportunity cost for a Ross grad to pick up a MAcc seems too high. That year to get the MAcc was probably north of $100K (median Ross first year salary + cost of MAcc program). And MAcc starting salaries are lower than Ross BBA salaries. Were you seized with becoming an accountant or is there something I'm missing? Seems like LSA -> MAcc would have been an easier path, no?
January 29th, 2015 at 12:09 AM ^
No doubt that the MAcc absent my above factors have an opportunity cost of a years salary, plus tuition. I know that going forward tuition will now be at a lower MAcc rate, and the program has a history of awarding substantial scholarships to everyone who applies (15-20k). But I will say that the growth I've seen in both my salary and career have put me back on pace with my corporate finance colleagues. If I did it again, I'd likely skip Ross as an undergrad and go straight from LSA to MAcc.
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January 28th, 2015 at 7:53 PM ^
January 28th, 2015 at 8:10 PM ^
Ross is an amazing school, but consulting recruiters for example know the average NU student could have gotten pre-admitted to Ross in high school.
January 28th, 2015 at 6:04 PM ^
All three are tops academically but Michigan really is so well rounded across all academic disiplines that I'd find it tough to imagine under any field of study NU or ND would be worth $30K a year more.
If he thinks that Engineering may be his route, then Michigan is definately better across most Engineering fields. But, in essentially all other areas, it is not behind regardless.
Unless the family is very, very well off (whereby he should go where he feels he fits best), Michigan is going to be the way to go.
January 28th, 2015 at 6:05 PM ^
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January 28th, 2015 at 6:12 PM ^
and ND 's piety is doubted.
January 28th, 2015 at 6:13 PM ^
I am Catholic and was taught from a young age by my Catholic parents that Michigan=good and ND=bad. Not exactly infatuated.
January 28th, 2015 at 6:24 PM ^
January 29th, 2015 at 8:57 AM ^
Sorry, I don't think it's even generally true. I think that Catholics, like people of all faiths and no faith, probably favor the school they attended over all others, which was the case with my parents and with me and with my kids - all of whom are Catholic Michigan alums.
And it's not like ND is the only Catholic school around. In fact, I think there are other Catholic universities that do a much better job of following church doctrine than does Notre Dame. There are plenty of Catholics I know who favor Jesuit institutions like Boston College and Georgetown over ND.
January 28th, 2015 at 11:44 PM ^
January 29th, 2015 at 9:01 AM ^
Had a young parish priest once celebrate a Michigan victory over ND by telling the congregation on Sunday that Michigan "opened a can of whoop-ass" on them, which my young kids thought was hilarious and have never forgotten!
January 28th, 2015 at 6:06 PM ^
UM in-state tuition is about $13k a year. Notre Dame full year is about $26k. Nowhere near a $30k premium. In fact, ND is about $15k less than UM out of state tuition. Figure room, board, books, fees, etc. are a wash.
Northwestern is about $15k/quarter, with 3 quarters per year getting you to about $45k/year. Again, other stuff considered a wash.
I'd say cost is certainly a factor for the parents (and maybe the kid, depending on the loan situation). But a big factor, too, has to be the experience. All three are vastly different from each other in terms of culture, environment, and experience. If all three are relatively close in terms of desired major/program, weigh how much the school vs. cost matter.
College trips are most certainly in order, maybe even having a host for a night/weekend at each respective school. Make sure the kid and parents are prepared with questions of what they're looking for, aid available, etc.
January 28th, 2015 at 6:10 PM ^
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January 28th, 2015 at 6:15 PM ^
Correct - the current ND cost of attendence is listed as over $59K/yr. Michigan in-state cost is less than $26K/yr. Both are tuition, room and board and books and supplies.
January 29th, 2015 at 10:50 AM ^
You got me. I googled and accidentally ended up on the Notre Dame College site, not the university of notre dame site. Mea culpa.
January 28th, 2015 at 6:06 PM ^
As stated previously, it really depends on what your son wants to study. Michigan absolutely blows ND out of the water (and has an edge on NW) when it comes scientific research. I was a physics and mathematics major at UM and did summer research at ND one year. There was no comparison. Even the professors at ND bemoaned their existence at a school that doesn't emphasize research. If your son wants to go into math or science, don't go to ND. NW and UM are pretty close, but I'd give the biased edge to UM.
I'd also obviously give UM the edge when it comes to any type of engineering.
If your son wants to be a history or anthropology major, you can make the case that ND or NW degree might be better.
If your son wants to be a lawyer or doctor, UM has top ten schools in each.
January 28th, 2015 at 10:04 PM ^
January 28th, 2015 at 10:40 PM ^
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January 28th, 2015 at 6:06 PM ^
Short answer: no, not at all. Long answer depends on financial aid and what the real difference is in the end; what he'll major in and what he might wind up doing. If the aid packages still leave a 30k gap, no way. And if he winds up majoring in something requiring the resources of a major research university, ND will not be close. 3 graduates come here to New York with the same degree and same personalities from these 3 institutions, they probably wind up making about the same, but if he plays the alum network right the Michigan grad will have a job before the subway seat under his ass gets warm.
January 28th, 2015 at 6:07 PM ^
So I'm thinking ND would be a good choice.
January 28th, 2015 at 6:07 PM ^
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January 28th, 2015 at 7:56 PM ^
January 28th, 2015 at 9:41 PM ^
January 28th, 2015 at 9:56 PM ^
No offense to your son and his choice, but based on value, I would take in-state Michigan engineering over any Ivy league school. Michigan's engineering program is considered one of the top 10 programs in the country and is more highly ranked than any Ivy League school for engineering. A Michigan Engineering degree will get you a job pretty much anywhere you want if you do well there. If you are in-state and want to go the engineering route, it is almost a no-brainer.
Honestly, for in-state Michigan kids, there are very few places I would consider going to for engineering over Michigan. MIT, Stanford, Cal-Berkeley, Cal-Tech, Carnegie Mellon, those types of places. And probably I would only condider them if significant financial aid was involved.
January 28th, 2015 at 11:27 PM ^
- we are not in-state, so in-state tuition does not apply
- we are fortunate to have tuition already taken care of
- he feels the general caliber of student at Cornell Engineering will surpass that of UM based on the requirement to admit in-state students
- depending on which publication you use, the rankings for Cornell and UM engineering are splitting hairs
- he wants an Ivy League engineering degree and Cornell offers the best program
I always thought he'd end up at UM, but can't fault his reasons for pursuing and ultimately gaining admission via the early decision process to Cornell Engineering.
January 29th, 2015 at 1:54 AM ^
Obviously if you are not in-state, Michigan is quite expensive so it's not quite as good of a value. I think Michigan engineering is an amazing value as an in-state student. Once you are talking about out-of-state tuition, you are talking an entirely different ballgame.
I will disagree with him 100% on the general caliber of engineering students though. Michigan may be required to admit in-state students, but the college of engineering isn't required to admin anyone as far as I know. I would put the top engineers at Michigan up against anyone execpt for the very tip-top engineering schools I already mentioned. Places like MIT, Stanford, Cal-Tech are definitely somewhat more highly regarded, but you also pay through the nose for it.
January 29th, 2015 at 7:41 AM ^
January 29th, 2015 at 8:24 AM ^
January 29th, 2015 at 9:05 AM ^
Cornell CoE has 3,000 total undergrads; 6,000 at UM CoE. Cornell is largely an east coast regional school. I'd bet less than a dozen Michigan residents are in Cornell's CoE.
January 29th, 2015 at 9:38 AM ^
January 28th, 2015 at 10:10 PM ^
January 28th, 2015 at 11:16 PM ^
January 29th, 2015 at 1:56 AM ^
You do realize that Google was FOUNDED by Michigan grads right? I don't think a Michigan engineering degree would be an obstacle for getting into Google.
January 29th, 2015 at 8:26 AM ^
January 28th, 2015 at 6:07 PM ^
Funny, I had nearly the exact same conversation with my son when he graduated from HS a few years back. Considered both Michigan and Northwestern (not ND). Would have supported him either way, but in my mind I could see no cost justification for the NU degree over the Michigan degree. Fortunately he chose Michigan, and it worked out well for both of us. He graduated from the LSA Honors Program, and earned himself a fellowship to another prestigious institution for graduate study.
January 28th, 2015 at 6:08 PM ^
No.
Even if you want to be a journalist, the Daily pumps just as many guys into jobs as schools with an actual program.
January 28th, 2015 at 6:46 PM ^
^ What he said. I'm impressed at how many writers I read in the Daily are on national platforms now (See: Nicole Auerbach, Chantel Jennings).
January 28th, 2015 at 7:26 PM ^
Sorry, I had to ask :)
January 28th, 2015 at 7:46 PM ^
January 28th, 2015 at 7:57 PM ^
January 28th, 2015 at 6:08 PM ^
where he wants to end up in addition to what he might want to do. Chicago is a ND/NU hotbed. East coast is more UM friendly. (in my experience) but if he wants to stay in Michigan then go to UM. Can't speak about the West coast but I do have UM friends (and Alum) out there as well.
January 28th, 2015 at 6:17 PM ^
Chicago is also Michigan crazy and while ND has a Chicago edge (slight), it is not $120K+ in 4 year costs better.
January 28th, 2015 at 7:41 PM ^
January 29th, 2015 at 2:35 AM ^
Many of them undergrad at Cal and Grad at UM and vice versa. NU not as well known but there are not a lot of them out here or they do not stand out as much. Cal and UM had some sort of band of brothers thing when I was in undergrad. I live in the Bay Area because a roommate was in Public Health grad at UM , undergrad at Cal. Told me the counselors at Cal told him and others to go to UM for grad rather than UCLA or USC . Also told me that UM Med school was really held in esteem out here, even with UCSF and Stanford grads a dime a dozen. Most of the Med School staff at UC Davis came from UM in the 80s ( Faith Fitzgerald, Joe Silva, and others ) . Don't think NU or ND has such a great number of grads outside of the midwest.
Also the sports angle may actually hurt NU. I identify UM grads out here because they still wear their UM apperal on game days ( ND too of course )