OT: Best cfb QB, Heisman QB, #1 NFL draft QB discussion.
Ever since ESPN came out with the article about USC’s Williams being a “generational talent” at QB, I’ve wondered if that was actually true or not, IMO, and with regards to his 2022 Heisman. The talking heads at ESPN, along with a number of NFL scouts raved about his play and abilities.
Personally, after watching a number of his games this season, I’m just not that impressed with him. Can he make plays out if nothing? Absolutely he can, and arguably is the best QB in college at being able to do it. But his read progression sucks, and it doesn’t look to me like he sees anything presnap other than if one of his WR is matched man to man on anyone. If they are that’s really his first and only read, and that’s where the pass goes unless he’s flushed out of the pocket. Then he shines, assuming the defense isn’t good(like ND’s), and his wrs either bail him out by getting open, or he’s got a lane to run. From what I’ve seen, he only really shines when there is a talent disparity between his offense and him as compared to the defense he is facing.
Translating that to the NFL is nearly impossible given the talent disparities of the players are nearly eliminated and the success or lack of it depends on scheme and RPS wins.
If it’s me, from what I’ve seen, I’m drafting Maye above Williams as Maye seems to have better NFL QB qualities than Williams.
If I have the #1 pick, though, I’m going with Marvin Harrison jr. as he truly is a generational talent at WR, akin to a Fitzgerald or Calvin Johnson.
As for best college QB, I’m taking JJ over anyone else in CFB right now, homerism or not.
October 25th, 2023 at 11:41 AM ^
He wants ownership of whatever team drafts him, so he better be or he ain't gonna get drafted.
October 25th, 2023 at 12:16 PM ^
Ain't no way a team is going to agree to that. And didn't the NFL nix Brady trying to become part owner while he was still playing?
October 25th, 2023 at 1:59 PM ^
Yep, and after his last 2 college games, he is lucky to get drafted (alright, that is way to hard on him, but still)
Williams and Penis have not done their draft stocks well the last couple games.
October 25th, 2023 at 2:15 PM ^
This escalated quickly. It’s not that hard
October 25th, 2023 at 11:45 AM ^
Came here to post something but..
GODDAMNIT IT, TRU STAGE!!!!
October 25th, 2023 at 11:47 AM ^
EMPATHY
October 25th, 2023 at 11:49 AM ^
Lol Williams is far from a generational type QB … is he a good to great college type QB yes … that’s all which in itself is pretty good … Harrison Jr. is a generational WR !
October 25th, 2023 at 1:09 PM ^
When I think of generational college WRs, I think of guys like Randy Moss, Calvin Johnson, and Larry Fitzgerald.
Nor sure if MHJ is there, but he could be. Too bad (not) that he's hampered by a sub-par QB right now.
October 25th, 2023 at 2:01 PM ^
Yeah, i am between Marvin Harrison Jr being the best college WR this year, or a generational WR. But his floor is best college WR this year, which is pretty damn good.
October 25th, 2023 at 2:33 PM ^
Yeah, that's too bad....you hate to see that.
It's about time OSU has to deal with this idea.....
October 25th, 2023 at 1:51 PM ^
Agree that Williams is definitely NOT generational. He's just another QB in Lincoln Riley's very QB friendly offense. We've seen this story from Riley each year since Stoops retired. Pretty sure Riley could make me look good enough to elicit some draft talk. And that's saying something!
As for who I'd take at #1? This is not a question, but I would have to give a very considerate look at Jayden Daniels. The QB fancy stats posted somewhere yesterday (or was it Monday's game column?) showed him just a hair behind JJ in every category. TBH, I had no idea he was doing that well. I'll have to pay more attention to him going forward.
October 25th, 2023 at 2:07 PM ^
I've seen way more than enough to know that Daniels is a college QB.
Talk about someone who can't go through progressions.
Daniels is a phenomenal runner which opens things up for him throwing but he's not an NFL QB, IMO.
October 25th, 2023 at 11:50 AM ^
According to the media, there's a new GENERATIONAL TALENT every year in every sport.
Edit: just looking back a few years, I am pretty sure Caleb, Trevor, Burrow have all been hard sold as GENERATIONAL TALENTS.
October 25th, 2023 at 12:02 PM ^
Yeah, they may need to retire that adjective pretty soon. It's sort of becoming like the word "literal" which, thanks to lazy usage, can now mean either "literal" and "figurative." So in college football right now there are multiple once-in-a-generation QBs.
October 25th, 2023 at 12:28 PM ^
Trevor was considered that but never had the crazy stats. Caleb has always been considered great. Burrow wasn’t until his time at LSU with the best WR duo in memory. J.J. is kind of in the Trevor camp to me based on their leadership and ability on the field. Scouting these kids as high schoolers is a weird science.
October 25th, 2023 at 11:51 AM ^
Did we do this with Shea Patterson too?
If I was an NFL GM I’d have Williams and Penix highest on my list. JJ would be in the I don’t know how good he really is yet category. If he beats PSU and OSU and has a good game while doing so he can be in the Heisman talk.
October 25th, 2023 at 11:53 AM ^
Didn't... they beat... OSU last year? Seems I remember something like three touchdown passes from JJ, but sure, he might not really be any good.
But Penix, though. He's obviously great. Look what they did against... um... well...
October 25th, 2023 at 12:26 PM ^
Apparently we’re not looking at statistics in games after October last year? Only wins / losses count?
October 25th, 2023 at 12:02 PM ^
We did not do this with Patterson-
October 25th, 2023 at 12:12 PM ^
IDK if it was “done with Shea Patterson” or not, and I’m not pumping up JJ as #1 QB in the draft or anything. This is mainly comments on Williams and if he really is all that or not. IMO I don’t think so. I’d draft Maye above him, and probably above JJ as well, but if I have the first pick it’s Harrison jr.
Id choose JJ in CFB over anyone else because he’s the most known quantity at QB to me, and from what I’ve seen of others he fits UM’s offense better.
October 25th, 2023 at 12:03 PM ^
Williams has a huge ego and hasn't performed well against actual defenses. No way I'm taking him high in the draft. Round 2 at the earliest.
October 25th, 2023 at 12:08 PM ^
His body language doesn’t show that of team leader … JJ would have been right at the sideline cheering on the D not on the bench hands behind head for all to see !!! Afterwards JJ would have been consoling the D !!! That’s a leader in addition to a great QB talent !!!
October 25th, 2023 at 12:07 PM ^
This really isn't off topic
October 25th, 2023 at 12:16 PM ^
Hmm, I thought Al Golden and ND's defense provided a pretty good template for how to limit Mr. Williams' effectiveness. Sure, he got some plays when things went off-script but, for the most part, that defensive scheme slowed him way down.
October 25th, 2023 at 12:17 PM ^
Caleb is maximizing his talents for a system offense. Lincoln Riley has had 3 of the last 6 Heisman winners, so clearly not a coincidence. And he could have had a 4th with Hurts if not for the incredible year Burrow had.
I haven't seen anything yet that says CW will have the same success as Hurts, but I'm not a pro scout. For now, he's a system QB in my eyes with pro potential.
Watching and comparing him to JJ, JJ seems to handle pressure a little better and he's operating in a much more pro-oriented offense. Those two make him a better pro prospect. TBD if that makes JJ the Heisman winner. We here watch more football than the people that vote.
October 25th, 2023 at 12:25 PM ^
I am not sure what the complete list of QB skills is, but most of them are probably:
- Arm strength (distance, velocity)
- Throwing accuracy
- Throwing touch (i.e., velocity)
- Ability to adjust arm angles
- Escapability/pocket presence
- Speed (long)
- Quickness/acceleration
- Running vision, cutting ability, etc.
- Height
- Size/strength
- Durability/injury free-ness
- Leadership
- Ability to get along with, work well with teammates
- Work ethic/discipline
- Ability to read defenses (pre-snap and post-snap)
- Mental processing power/raw intelligence
- Mental processing speed/photographic memory
- Improvisational ability
To play QB at the Division I level, a player undoubtedly needs a certain modicum of ability in some of these areas--like some minimal amount of arm strength and accuracy and some of the basic mental skills. Of course the better and more successful QBs will have more of these skills and excel at some of them. But it's pretty uncommon to find players who do all or nearly all these things well, let alone excel in a whole bunch of these areas. You may find more than one such QB in a "generation" or even more than once in recruiting cycle, but not much more than that.
October 25th, 2023 at 12:26 PM ^
Let me preface this by saying I’m not an analyst, just some thoughts from a fan…
I think it’s (almost) a forgone conclusion that Williams is the most talented QB at the college level. However there are several red flags for me. First, his playmaking involves him moving around in the pocket, which he excels at, because he’s more athletic than 99% of the pass rushes he plays against. However, try this in the NFL, you’ll get smoked. Next there are… concerns of his ability to handle adversity and beating good teams. Couple that with someone who could probably use some PR training, and we have a brand risk. Finally, and most damning to me is the little interactions i’ve noticed watching USC. Specifically the Utah game. His defense is on the field, with a chance to get a stop and win the game. Meanwhile he is sulking, head down, by himself. Do you think J.J would ever do that? Would J.J ever be by himself in general? No. His teammates love him. Give me J.J all day.
October 25th, 2023 at 12:36 PM ^
This is also more of a knock on the ESPN draft “gurus”. They typically get the QBs wrong on their takes(even if they might be close on draft positions). Calling Williams a “generational talent” at QB, as that same player has shown very little skill at reading defenses nor in an ability to consistently go through any progression other than his first read is typical for them. Sure he’s got good to great arm strength and is a great runner at QB, but I believe Williams relies on those things, along with having great talent at WR to throw to, more than in studying and learning and applying actual QB skills that are translatable to the NFL. In recent history, OU’s and OSU’s QBs haven’t shown much of anything in the NFL (Stroud’s actual skill is yet to be determined, but may end up a lone exception for OSU QBs). They’ve been great system qbs in college while also enjoying having a talent advantage at wr to throw to, but so far have been meh to bad in the NFL. Seems to me Williams is going to be the sane, with more athleticism to rely on to try to make plays.
October 25th, 2023 at 12:59 PM ^
It's all voodoo. I assumed CJ Stroud would be a dud based on his performances against Michigan and the curse of the OSU QBs, but he seems like he's working out. I don't think I would take a UNC QB very high. Risk of a second Trubisky. But who knows? So much of it depends on the talent and scheme of the drafting team.
October 25th, 2023 at 1:01 PM ^
All I know is this post is not a once in a generation post.
October 25th, 2023 at 1:30 PM ^
I’ll agree to that, lol. I definitely could have summarized a lot better and streamlined some of the points I was trying to make. I’ve been on here a long time but have started very few topics, certainly not enough to make a great, or even good thread. 🤷♂️😂
October 25th, 2023 at 2:45 PM ^
No, this is just a stupid topic to post, doesn't matter how streamlined you want to make it.
October 25th, 2023 at 2:45 PM ^
Who gives a shit? We're staring down the barrel of having the last two seasons vacated and you're worried about caleb fucking williams??
October 25th, 2023 at 8:16 PM ^
Stfu you idiot vacate your mouth